• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Cyanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,345
I was browsing through the SSD thread in OT when this thought struck me - do any games currently utilize the insane write speeds of NVMe drives? In fact, are there any real-world scenarios a consumer might run into in the forseeable future that would benefit from NVMe tech?

It feels like the general sentiment around these drives for the past couple years has been "cool, but you're not actually going to see an improvement over most SSDs for the time being"

Is this still true?
 

Bomblord

Self-requested ban
Banned
Jan 11, 2018
6,390
Write? What use would a game have to write to an NVME drive that wouldn't be solved by the 16GB+ of faster writable ram in the PC? I guess save faster... Maybe use it as some slower RAM?
 

laxu

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,782
Read speeds matter for games more as they don't have all that much to write to disk and pretty much any SSD is good enough there.

In real world use I can't tell any significant difference between my NVME and SATA SSDs for anything but large file copying.
 

defaltoption

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
11,483
Austin
Star citizen is the only one i can think of that benefits from it but even that isnt a huge difference between sata and nvme. But like of you're building a new system and nvme and sata is within 10% cost wise always go nvme if you can.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,290
So i guess NVME optimization is the coding to the metal of the new generation?
 

Madjoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,230
No. Games don't write that much at all. And even when they do, it's something like single save file and small.
 

Vashetti

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,550
So i guess NVME optimization is the coding to the metal of the new generation?
This will be why they won't let you swap out the internal drive. Devs need to be guaranteed that that ultra fast storage is in every customer's console. They may let you put in/connect a HDD/slower SSD, but any running game will need to be off the internal SSD.
 

exodus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,944
So i guess NVME optimization is the coding to the metal of the new generation?

Not really. RAM is still loads faster than an NVMe. Proper caching and streaming of assets is what's important. Furthermore, so many assets on disc are compressed and the CPU essentially becomes the bottleneck at that point.

What I expect we'll see is an onboard solid state cache that will be used by game developers to cache uncompressed assets for quick access. I expect the general NVMe storage to be QLC memory and the cache will be a small slice of something faster (maybe even 120GB of SLC).

This will be why they won't let you swap out the internal drive. Devs need to be guaranteed that that ultra fast storage is in every customer's console. They may let you put in/connect a HDD/slower SSD, but any running game will need to be off the internal SSD.

If they use a fast cache between the SSD and RAM then it should be a non issue.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,888
I posted an article about storage speeds in games from TechSpot a couple of months ago:

www.resetera.com

TechSpot: Storage gaming performance - from 5400 RPM HDDs to PCIe 4.0 SSDs

https://www.techspot.com/review/1956-storage-performance/ They did various benchmarks on these drives, so check the link, but this thread will focus on the gaming benchmarks. I can vouch for the Crucial MX500 SSD - it's great for gaming and can be had for a fraction of its Samsung equivalent...
 

LCGeek

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,857
This seems to be a misunderstanding of how OS systems work.

If an application begins writing/reading to the drive depending on certain conditions like the cable the drive is connected, the level of sata the motherboard is capable, os capability, and cpu or chips on the drive it will begin to max itself. The only way you lose speed in data transfer is if other application or services that need IO start draining it as well.

So i guess NVME optimization is the coding to the metal of the new generation?

No

Just like older HDDs try to always work as fast possible same is for SSD drives unless you break the condition I mentioned. A console game has insane resources because it's not contending for much where as a windows pc normally is even if it looks idle. Optimization is a lie cause all the work is already done considering how OS handles this issue devs don't need to do crap to really take advantage of this feature. They can build a game around what a really good SSD allows.
 

Raonak

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,170
i imagine it would be extremely risky to design a game around NVME read/write speeds when only a small amount of people actually have them.
PC games are generally designed to hit the widest market possible.

I imagine future console exclusives will make good use of it, because it's essentially their minimum spec.
The idea of using it as an extension of RAM is very interesting.
 

Komo

Info Analyst
Verified
Jan 3, 2019
7,110
What? You can't even run the game without NVME level minimum read speed on your drive?
It's a required SSD, but most people just recommend getting an nvme drive, either works. Tho this is it we will have these same issues with any game build on and ported from PS5/XSX. If the dev porting doesn't already take that into count. Definitely just me speculating but it's probably gonna be like that.


Not exactly. They recommend a solid state drive, not necessarily NVMe.

Don't forget GDDR5.
Well yeah but it's not that much more for an nvme compared to a sata ssd.
 

FantaSoda

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,992
Just like older HDDs try to always work as fast possible same is for SSD drives unless you break the condition I mentioned. A console game has insane resources because it's not contending for much where as a windows pc normally is even if it looks idle. Optimization is a lie cause all the work is already done considering how OS handles this issue devs don't need to do crap to really take advantage of this feature. They can build a game around what a really good SSD allows.

Well how come when you upgrade from an SSD to a NVME hard drive (which can be a ten fold increase in read/write) you don't see a ten fold increase in load times? There has to be a bottleneck in the games, I would think.
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,930
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
Star citizen is the only one i can think of that benefits from it but even that isnt a huge difference between sata and nvme. But like of you're building a new system and nvme and sata is within 10% cost wise always go nvme if you can.
There is a reason for that though. Nvme and sata ssds have very similar random 4k Performance, which is the most important Thing.
Only Optane or ramdisks offer order of magnitude differencess there.

The sequential read and write of large files is where the bigger differences between sata ssd and nvme are, and that is just 'less' important.
 

Inugami

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,995


Short answer: No, not currently.

Long answer: We're likely to see more use next gen, but I wouldn't expect all games requiring nvme, but it will become recommended over SATA for nearly everything.
 

Bomblord

Self-requested ban
Banned
Jan 11, 2018
6,390
It's a required SSD, but most people just recommend getting an nvme drive, either works. Tho this is it we will have these same issues with any game build on and ported from PS5/XSX. If the dev porting doesn't already take that into count. Definitely just me speculating but it's probably gonna be like that.

Ehh I'll believe it when I see it. I'm sure the games on the PS5/XSX will have some nice benefits but I doubt anything would actually be unplayable off a Hard Drive unless it's just doing something insane like Star Citizen. Hard Drives are becoming less of a general consumer item anyway SSD's can be had for $20 for a basic 120GB and I threw in a 512GB into my PC when I set it up and completely ignored a hard drive just because it was so cheap.
 

Madjoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,230
With SSDs being a standard on consoles going forward, wouldn't be surprised if games start requiring SSDs on PC too.

About time too. Virtually every PC already has SSD.

This should've already happen with current gen back in 2013.
But consoles has been holding back for a decade or so.
 

spad3

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,122
California
I plan on picking up an NVMe for Cyberpunk when it comes out. dedicating that entire thing to that game and nothing else.
 

TaySan

SayTan
Member
Dec 10, 2018
31,402
Tulsa, Oklahoma
For gaming? Nope not at all a Sata SSD will last you a long while.
Games are huge nowadays so it might even be a better idea to buy like a 2 tb sata over a smaller nvme for games. I have 2 1 tb nvme and i'm already used up a good chunk of storage on games. Thinking about buying a sata SSD later on.
 

Pokemaniac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,944
Well how come when you upgrade from an SSD to a NVME hard drive (which can be a ten fold increase in read/write) you don't see a ten fold increase in load times? There has to be a bottleneck in the games, I would think.
Contrary to popular belief, load times aren't just for loading data into memory. There's often a bunch of other stuff going on during loading screens to get things ready.
 

LCGeek

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,857
Well how come when you upgrade from an SSD to a NVME hard drive (which can be a ten fold increase in read/write) you don't see a ten fold increase in load times? There has to be a bottleneck in the games, I would think.
ramdrive speeds are faster than a nvme and we still get slowdowns or lack of insane gains. For me it comes down to the OS and IO stack along with quality of the motherboard granted you have a decent cpu which most people do since the dual core age has come around.

I'm one the few here advocating for radical things on a low level to be done to see performance gains. How will be difficult, but accepting the premise shouldn't be. What we use to govern machines at the lowest level is ass for gaming if we ant better utilization

Most kernels we have not were designed for specs that are in nowhere near the same league as what we have since dualcore. This is a limit I've noticed since moving to ramdrive loaded kernel supported by SSD. I say it because be it my own stuff, 8700k, and ryzen 3600 I should seen similar anomolies be it in games or in the OS. I didn't need SSD to find this out anyone using a decent ramdrive setup sees and know that windows OS can't keep up even on great rigs. I/O mechanism need to be redesigned to hit specs they mention. I'm glad sony says that is the performance but I would love to know how they achived that. It's one thing for a technology alone to promise that speed but what application specifically was reaching that performance. I've learned not to trust most tech makers cause they are giving us numbers that sometimes don't match real world performance when you throw a bunch of things running at once that are greedy.

It's a nasty bottleneck and short of industry miracle won't be touched until MS or Sony engineers are allowed to do their jobs vs company politics of getting things paid. I'm glad MS has phil but is super lacking in this area and doesn't have anyone great in certain areas that should be addressed.

No OS is perfect but the problem with what most gamers use is the parts aren't as great as they should. Easy way to describe it's difference between a super car and sports car. Gamers need a sports car OS and we really don't have one, it would be daunting to do it but like I said I'm in other engineering movement that have done thigns people said were impossible. A customized linux kernel right now offers a ton of things reliably you cannot get on windows ever. BSD can do it but implementation is everything. The bottle neck is that OS isn't flexing the way it could or should be.

If you're wondering where I get my own expertise from I customize my linux to the point I have my own customized cpu scheduler and network stack that runs circles around any console or version of windows that exist, so any cpu/gpu I drop in to those environments works like a champ. I don't ever mind discussing how I got to that point either. firmware and console makers with the politics of some companies are doing us dirty and devs don't have much recourse even ones that work at ibm or ms who could influence this process greatly.
 
OP
OP
Cyanity

Cyanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,345
For gaming? Nope not at all a Sata SSD will last you a long while.
Games are huge nowadays so it might even be a better idea to buy like a 2 tb sata over a smaller nvme for games. I have 2 1 tb nvme and i'm already used up a good chunk of storage on games. Thinking about buying a sata SSD later on.

How much are decent 1tb NVMe's going for nowadays, anyway? I'm probably gonna be upgrading my pc this year, so it might be best to just buy future tech instead of more SSDs.
 
Jun 10, 2018
1,060
Contrary to popular belief, load times aren't just for loading data into memory. There's often a bunch of other stuff going on during loading screens to get things ready.
Yup, it's also doing things like compiling shaders. So having a faster GPU can also slightly decrease loading times as well (edit: I may be correct or incorrect about the GPU decreasing load times).
 
Last edited:

Timu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,540
For gaming? Nope not at all a Sata SSD will last you a long while.
Games are huge nowadays so it might even be a better idea to buy like a 2 tb sata over a smaller nvme for games. I have 2 1 tb nvme and i'm already used up a good chunk of storage on games. Thinking about buying a sata SSD later on.
Yeah, it'll probably be for the best.
 

No_Style

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,795
Ottawa, Canada
About time too. Virtually every PC already has SSD.

This should've already happen with current gen back in 2013.
But consoles has been holding back for a decade or so.

Nearly every PC has an SSD for its OS but lots of people still have mechanical drives for their storage drive where games are installed. My PCs are pure SSD but my storage drive is only 512GB drive. Hopefully 1TB SSD drives start becoming even cheaper soon.