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Blade30

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,611
I mean more that skipping all the encounters will probably leave you underleveled for a casual playthrough. Random or not, fighting mooks in JRPGs is usually little more than going through the motions.

I'm not saying you should skip them entirely, but with visible encounters you can at least face them whenever you want unlike with random encounters where you sometimes get tossed in battle after just taking 2-3 steps.

Right now I'm replaying FF9 on steam and I only face the mobs to level up and be prepared for boss battles, doing this with the fast forward + auto-battle is less time consuming and less frustrating when you just want to continue the story.
 
Nov 4, 2017
430
I'd like to see a turn based RPG that makes each generic battle more meaningful by having fewer of them, added layers of strategy, but and bigger rewards.

Often times I play Jrpgs in a manner where I just mash confirm on the standard attack and heal when necessary. Many games don't give much reason to use spells or other abilities.

Also more games should include the Earthbound, you got the jump on the enemy and instantly beat them.
 

Orayn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,929
I used to think this way and it was one of the reasons I was so down on FFXIII. Then I realized I was switching roles almost as often as I'd be issuing battle commands in most other JRPGs, so I made my peace with auto battle.
 
Auto battle is good when you don't need to pin point what attacks you need and just want to finish the battle with just normal hits. It only a problem if the game is just playing itself for you and you're not engaging with the game's mechanics.
 

ElOdyssey

Member
Oct 30, 2017
713
Time is of the essence. If a game will provide a time conscious option then I will def take advantage of it.
 

PepsimanVsJoe

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,120
I love RPGs, but I hate seeing the same battle animations a billion times over.

Fast-forward and all related features are a godsend for me.
 

Augemitbutter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,290
I contest, there are pretty well designed combat systems in games that allow you to speed up combat/skip encounters entirely.

There are games where you simply don't encounter underleveled ennemies if you wish to do so - after all, there's nothing more infuriating than wanting to explore a location and be interrupted by countless encounters everybody knows you're going to win.

There are games where you can skip the battles by virtue of making the ennemy encounter a game mechanic in itself - I'll take the Shin Megami Tensei example again : you can skip through combat against underleved ennemies, but you still need these encounters, as you have to recruit/interrogate demons (for completion, in order to fuse special demons, to fuse new demons...).

And sometimes, it's just tiring to watch the same beautiful but overly long battle animations.

yes, but that's what i said. Good games already let you avoid unnecessary encounters once you meet a certain criteria. There are many examples because we have so many games. Obviously if i hunt low level SMT demons i will actively go out and hunt them, it becomes a necessary encounter to me. If a game is fun to play i don't want to speed it up with janky turbo modes or flat out refuse to interact with its systems (auto battle). If i have to skip every battle animation maybe they were too long from the beginning and it's fine to criticize them.
 

Sabercrusader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,189
Eh, I've got an issue with auto battle unless it's setup to only auto battle when you run into a monster that's so much lower level than you that there is no real danger whatsoever. It does seem to me like you're effectively skipping the core gameplay loop that way.

As for increase battle speed, I'm okay with that one. Sometimes the amount of time it takes to enter each battle, or the animations for the various attacks just get old. It helps to be able to speed it up so you can see the effects of your moves without having to watch the characters do the thing for it.
 

correojon

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,410
Post PS2 Jrpgs focus a lot more on the combat than Snes/PS1 stuff. This "jrpgs just doesn't focus on combat anymore" argument is pretty much the opposite of the truth.

I mean, what's even your point of comparison here? What you played in the genre recently aside Dragon Quest?

From the Megaten family, to Xenoblade, The Last Story, Etrian Odyssey, Alliance Alive, Fire Emblem, Trails, Bravely, Radiant Historia...most recent games in the genre has huge focus on the combat or atleast more than older entries. They also have more quality of life mechanics such as turbo speed or auto-battles because it's something convenient to have, not because the games would be bad without it.

I would say most recent jrpgs are more like you "imagined" and less just stat bonus and call it a day. Stat bonus with no gameplay strategic progression is a lot more prevalent in older games.
Xenoblade X and 2´s combat systems (can´t remember much about the first Xenoblade, I think it was a simpler version of the system in X, right?) were poor. Initially they gave the impression of a deep system with lots of stuff to learn...but eventually the veil falls and it becomes evident that there´s no depth in the system, just complexity. You only have to focus on your own characters and on nailing the timing of your actions with no regard for the enemy. If you nail your inputs and you have the right stats you´ll win, otherwise you´ll die. So encounters quickly became repetitive and the system boring.
 

Palidoozy

Concept Artist at Maxis Texas/EA
Verified
Sep 17, 2019
35
Austin, Texas
I think it's totally fine. Some folks like the folks here have said that they play mostly for the story, so battles are kind of just another slog to get through to experience more, and that's something I agree with.

Other times, JRPGs involve... grind. Yeah, these battle mechanics are fun -- unless I'm fighting the 70th bomb or zubat or whatever that I can kill almost immediately and wastes my time. I don't think skipping combat like this really matters or impacts someone's overall experience with the game. I don't cherish FFVII for the random encounter mooks.
 
Oct 27, 2017
13,464
Note: This is less so me disagreeing with the idea of people doing this, everyone should play their games as they see fit. I'm just sharing my stance on the subject and would like to see what others think as well.

Recently I read through some of the Trails of/Kiseki threads that have been posted on Era, and have also been talking to people who have been playing Dragon Quest XI on the highest battle speed. Ever since mobile RPGs became popular earlier this decade, of which many have an auto-battle function, I have always wondered why people would want to just skip the gameplay element of the titles that they play?

I feel like if a game's battle system/combat/etc. is so annoying or flawed that the solution to getting through it is to speed through them or just to not control the game at all during these instances may mean that I am not having fun with the game itself. Granted, I understand that people sometimes do this as a means to focus on enjoying the game's story and characters. As someone who appreciates these elements greatly, I can definitely understand that perspective, and think it's good that these games have these options for people who choose to do so. However, I feel like if I were to do so, the experience would be akin to watching a show, but with some buffer in between the actual content, as if I'm not even playing through the game.

Was interested in hearing what Era has to say about these features.
Time is the most valuable thing in the world and battle is repetitive. Whatever can speed it up is welcome.
 

sora87

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,860
No, giving you 9999 damage every hit doesn't defeat the purpose either if you just want to get through the game and see the story.
 

Schlauchkopf

Alt-account
Banned
Aug 20, 2018
659
The only game where I used the turbo option was FFXII HD and that was less because of the combat and moreso because the dungeons were ridiculously huge with each room being grander than it needed to be. So I viewed it as more of a sprint ability. For everything else I like to use normal speed, that includes tits and DQXI. And all those other recent FF ports.
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,783
Brazil
Xenoblade X and 2´s combat systems (can´t remember much about the first Xenoblade, I think it was a simpler version of the system in X, right?) were poor. Initially they gave the impression of a deep system with lots of stuff to learn...but eventually the veil falls and it becomes evident that there´s no depth in the system, just complexity. You only have to focus on your own characters and on nailing the timing of your actions with no regard for the enemy. If you nail your inputs and you have the right stats you´ll win, otherwise you´ll die. So encounters quickly became repetitive and the system boring.

Didn't played 2. But about Xenoblade X, the combat is pretty deep and have a lot of stuff to learn, no matter if you liked it or not. The game has huge focus on the combat, which is the opposite of your argument. It was 100% not a second thought. Would even say that the story was the second thought in Xenoblade X's specific case.

"If you nail your inputs and have the right stats you'll win" is something that can be said for stuff like Dark Souls. For everything disappointing in XCX, the combat system was precisely part of what made me finish it. XCX is also one of those games that you can defeat enemies 20 lvs higher with the right strategies or builds, and no way a rpg can do this without depth.

There's nothing "unfocused" on the battle systems in the Xenoblade series.
 

Deleted member 41651

User-requested account closure
Banned
Apr 3, 2018
1,981
The increased speed of battles is serving me well on my 2nd run of Alliance Alive HD.

I would've killed for just battle speed features when I'd play stuff like Xenogears or Chrono Cross back in the day and a boss defeat meant tons of cutscenes and random battles.
 

scare_crow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,305
Fast-forward made me have a great time with FFXII HD, something I wasn't able to do with the original's snail-like pace. So, no.
 

Basileus777

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,197
New Jersey
I don't need to watch the same animations play out over and over. These options are great for the same reason turning combat animations off in Fire Emblem are.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,964
The playstation Final Fantasy trilogy is unplayable without triple speed for me. Battles you might be ok besides summons but holy shit that prison part in FF8 without triple speed
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,898
JP
I can understand auto-battle "defeating the purpose" of RPGs, but increasing battle speed? Why would sitting through the same animations over and over again be the ideal way to play a game?
 

Deleted member 56909

User requested account closure
Banned
May 21, 2019
446
underwater
No because not letting the player customize battlespeed is not exactly fair. Tho if take it a step further with increasing walk speed so some RPGs like divinity are playable to me. That said make these toggles so players can pick and choose.
 

kamineko

Linked the Fire
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,495
Accardi-by-the-Sea
they are very valuable. especially for trash enemies.

in DQ XI, for example, there is often a need to return to areas with weak monsters just to farm materials. no need to carefully scrutinize damage numbers in such a situation, it's a waste of time

in DQ XI I slow combat down or set it to manual when shit gets real. You can change both speed and tactics on the fly, which is awesome

neither diminishes the RPG experience, especially in such a massive game
 

Berordn

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,739
NoVA
I have no issue with auto battle, and it's usually how I play the DQ games. I'm still building the characters how I want and equipping them appropriately, so it's not like I'm having the game play itself if I tell a character to focus on healing.
 

Adulfzen

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,606
Dragon Quest XI normal battle speed looks like slow motion to me so I'm glad they're giving the options to speed things up while also keeping the normal speed during the cool team combos animations.
It does look silly when some games allow you to walk faster so I'd rather have a sprint option or even an horse, basically I want most games to do it like Dragon Quest XIS.
 

Mendrox

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,439
Auto battle can be okay for endgame Grind, but otherwise I agree that it takes out a lot.

Speeding battles up? Give me all the options even skipping animations. First thing I turn off in games if the option is there and saves a lot of hours for things i dont wanna see hundred of times.
 

Deleted member 9486

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,867
I have no issue with auto battle, and it's usually how I play the DQ games. I'm still building the characters how I want and equipping them appropriately, so it's not like I'm having the game play itself if I tell a character to focus on healing.

Exactly. Plus you have the option to turn it off at any time in any fight. It's great for overworld battles when just wanting to stay overleveled etc., and then can turn it off to manually do boss fights, tougher enemiews etc.

Personally, I don't give a crap about battles or challenges in JRPGs. I don't find tinkering with builds or planning out strategies for different enemies very fun or rewarding. I play these type of games for the story, characters, world building, exploration etc. My only goal with the battles is to just stay leveled enough that I never hit a wall on the easiest difficulty and get forced to grind or look up strategies.

So I think it's great that these games have options to make things as easy and automated as possible for people like me and also have all the various toggles to make things more difficulty/hardcore for people that want more challenge and penalties for dying. Devs can make their games however they want of course, but I try to throw my money at games that give players options to play however they want.
 

Falchion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
40,908
Boise
I think they could ruin a game if the player uses it too much, but the real strategy comes with team composition and acquiring the right weapons / items / runes for the job which auto battle or increased speed doesn't do.
 
Aug 28, 2019
440
So I think it's great that these games have options to make things as easy and automated as possible for people like me and also have all the various toggles to make things more difficulty/hardcore for people that want more challenge and penalties for dying. Devs can make their games however they want of course, but I try to throw my money at games that give players options to play however they want.

Yeah. See, I love the crunchy parts of RPGs, playing with party builds and killing monsters and treasure hunting and all that stuff. That's what I enjoy the most, but I'm not gonna tell somebody they're playing it wrong if they want to tweak it for a different experience. If you can play the way you like, and I can play the way I like, then we both have fun, and that's awesome.
 

Mr Spasiba

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,779
Given the length and more rigid nature of JRPG combat it's a great addition. I like seeing all the animations and stuff, but after like 40 hours I don't feel the need to see it in every single battle.

I wish more games had these sort of options.
 

Deleted member 9486

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,867
Yeah. See, I love the crunchy parts of RPGs, playing with party builds and killing monsters and treasure hunting and all that stuff. That's what I enjoy the most, but I'm not gonna tell somebody they're playing it wrong if they want to tweak it for a different experience. If you can play the way you like, and I can play the way I like, then we both have fun, and that's awesome.

Yep. The reason to play games is to have fun. I love it when devs give a lot of player options on how to play the game as that means more people can have fun with it.

Again, nothing wrong with devs that want to make games that only appeal to certain segments--like Souls games only being for people who want challenge. Not every game has to be for everyone. But I'll personally go out of my way to sport devs that make games with lots of player options.
 

correojon

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,410
Didn't played 2. But about Xenoblade X, the combat is pretty deep and have a lot of stuff to learn, no matter if you liked it or not. The game has huge focus on the combat, which is the opposite of your argument. It was 100% not a second thought. Would even say that the story was the second thought in Xenoblade X's specific case.
Combat is a second thought in regards to design as it´s very lacking. You have "a lot" of stuff to learn but only on the player side. You don´t need to learn about enemy behaviour, special capabilities or anything, that´s why I say that the system is complex but not deep or balanced. Look at it this way: In Doom you have a much more simpler system, however adding different types of enemies to an encounter can change drastically how you approach it. You have to prioritize what enemies to kill first, what weapons to use to be more effective, to rush or stay away...all these decissions are related to each other. This system has depth. Now look at any encounter in Xenoblade X. Adding an enemy only poses one question: Is the enemy too high level? If so, you flee or you die. If not you just play the encounter as you would against one enemy, repeating your strategy-cycle until all enemies are dead. This is the only decission you ever need to take in any encounter in the game.


"If you nail your inputs and have the right stats you'll win" is something that can be said for stuff like Dark Souls. For everything disappointing in XCX, the combat system was precisely part of what made me finish it. XCX is also one of those games that you can defeat enemies 20 lvs higher with the right strategies or builds, and no way a rpg can do this without depth.
There's nothing "unfocused" on the battle systems in the Xenoblade series.
Have you ever played Dark Souls? All the combat flow revolves around learning the enemy´s behaviour and choosing the right moment to attack, block, roll or parry. If you focus on your inputs and disregard the enemy even a Hollow in the Undead Burg can kill your level 120 knight. In Xenoblade X you don´t have any actions to react to what the enemy is doing. The fact that there are overpowered builds where the enemy becomes even more irrelevant just supports my argument even more: Once you find a way to consistently kill enemies you are never required to change your strategy. You enter the encounter, perform your inputs with no regard to what the enemy is doing and you win, if your build is powerful enough. When what´s in front of you stops being relevant you´ll sooner or later realize that you´re repeating the same stuff over and over again.
 

Admiral Woofington

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
14,892
Cold steel 2 has excessive animations for attacks im not about to wait 20 minutes to complete a battle i can do with sped up animations. I'm there for the story and exploration not the battles.
 

Anno

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,950
Columbus, Ohio
I'm glad that stuff exists for people who want it but I will never use it. The moment I start skipping/speeding up anything I start losing interesting quickly.
 

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
While there are exceptions, generally I feel like auto battle features are a crutch used by developers to circumvent poor design.

If something is so repetitive/boring that it needs to be automated, go back to the drawing board.
 

KCsoLucky

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,585
Fast Forward is literally the only way that I could last longer than 2 hours into Final Fantasy 9. That has to be the slowest battle transition and general speed of any game that I've played.
 

Deleted member 9486

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,867
While there are exceptions, generally I feel like auto battle features are a crutch used by developers to circumvent poor design.

If something is so repetitive/boring that it needs to be automated, go back to the drawing board.

That ignores individual taste. No matter whole well done/paced, there's just no turn-based combat systems--especially menu-driven ones--that I'm not going to find boring and repetitive as I just don't like that type of gameplay.

I just suffer through it as I love the stories, character developments, relationships, questing, exploration etc. in JRPGs. Games like Skyrim, Witcher 3, Fallout etc. are much better for me as I like the gameplay and get all that story and character stuff, but there's not nearly enough of those type of games at that level of quality each generation to keep me satiated. My ideal game would be something that played as well as Destiny, Borderlands etc. but had the story length and depth, character development, player choice etc. of great RPGs. The Mass Effect games are the closest so far.

Thus stuff like DQ11 with autobattle for common, easy fights or Fire Emblem on Normal Casual let me get that fix without having a bad time from not liking the combat or finding it too challenging or requiring too much thought and strategizing for someone that plays games to relax and mostly for story/characters.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
27,176
Faster battles are a nifty option to have and I don't think they invalidate the gameplay at all. In many turn-based RPGs, animation speed has no bearing on the gameplay but the battles are made to look as natural as possible and thus slow. I see it no different than turning off combat animations in Pokémon to save time.

As for auto-battle, the biggest argument for them is that in many turn-based games your pre-combat work is as important as what you do during combat. Final Fantasy XII with its gambit system in particular is a good example of this.
 

Dreavus

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Jan 12, 2018
1,725
Bravely default had some great options for battles. They had fast forward, but also the ability to adjust encounter rates (including down to 0) which made back tracking a lot less painful.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,051
They're a concession that a ton of turn-based JRPGs are actually very slow and repetitive, particularly when dealing with trash mobs. Just badly paced and balanced overall if you ask me.

This isn't as much of a problem in real-time games because the overall pace is usually faster and more immediate anyway -- you just press a button to kill low-level enemies and go about your business. It's one of the reasons Final Fantasy XII was such a breath of fresh air for me. It's also why I can more easily dump way more time into some real-time western RPGs than I can into turn-based JRPGs.

For turn-based games though, every encounter is at least a fairly significant diversion, and if too many of them end up feeling meaningless than it drags down the whole game. If that becomes the case then the game should probably just have a lower encounter rate overall, focusing more on the significant ones. Maybe the difficulty of regular enemies should be increased. This is less of a problem with SRPGs for instance because every individual battle (or at least most of them) in them tends to be tailored, and there are more possible moves so they aren't as repetitive.

While there are exceptions, generally I feel like auto battle features are a crutch used by developers to circumvent poor design.

If something is so repetitive/boring that it needs to be automated, go back to the drawing board.
That it ignores individual taste. There's no turn based combat systems--especially menu driven ones--that I'm not going to find boring and repetitive as I just don't like that type of gameplay.

I just suffer through it as I love the stories, character developments, relationships, questing, exploration etc. in JRPGs. Games like Skyrim, Witcher 3, Fallout etc. are much better for me as I like the gameplay and get all that story and character stuff. But there's not nearly enough of those type of games at that level of quality to keep me satiated. My ideal game would be something that played as well as Destiny, Borderlands etc. but had the story length and depth, character development, player choice etc. of a great RPGs. The Mass Effect games are the closest so far.

Thus stuff like DQ11 with autobattle for common, easy fights or Fire Emblem on Normal Casual let me get that fix without having a bad time from not liking the combat or finding it too challenging or requiring too much thought and strategizing for someone that plays games to relax and mostly for story/characters.

Pretty much yeah. Though I don't think that turn-based JRPG design is inherently bad. It's just poorly balanced and paced a lot of the time.

There are a lot of JRPGs that are complex enough and challenging enough that you wouldn't really need to use auto-battle unless you're taking your party back to an early area or something
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,783
Brazil
Combat is a second thought in regards to design as it´s very lacking. You have "a lot" of stuff to learn but only on the player side. You don´t need to learn about enemy behaviour, special capabilities or anything, that´s why I say that the system is complex but not deep or balanced. Look at it this way: In Doom you have a much more simpler system, however adding different types of enemies to an encounter can change drastically how you approach it. You have to prioritize what enemies to kill first, what weapons to use to be more effective, to rush or stay away...all these decissions are related to each other. This system has depth. Now look at any encounter in Xenoblade X. Adding an enemy only poses one question: Is the enemy too high level? If so, you flee or you die. If not you just play the encounter as you would against one enemy, repeating your strategy-cycle until all enemies are dead. This is the only decission you ever need to take in any encounter in the game.



Have you ever played Dark Souls? All the combat flow revolves around learning the enemy´s behaviour and choosing the right moment to attack, block, roll or parry. If you focus on your inputs and disregard the enemy even a Hollow in the Undead Burg can kill your level 120 knight. In Xenoblade X you don´t have any actions to react to what the enemy is doing. The fact that there are overpowered builds where the enemy becomes even more irrelevant just supports my argument even more: Once you find a way to consistently kill enemies you are never required to change your strategy. You enter the encounter, perform your inputs with no regard to what the enemy is doing and you win, if your build is powerful enough. When what´s in front of you stops being relevant you´ll sooner or later realize that you´re repeating the same stuff over and over again.


I played a lot more Dark Souls than Xenoblade X.

It's simply not true. A lot of enemies in XCX are more dangerous than others despite lower lvs because of specific behaviors. Some enemies are easier to deal with depending on your class and equipment in the same way. WIth a lv 40 party, i could kill lots of lv60 enemies and die against other lv 40 enemies. I could even kill lv 80 enemies depending on the geography, like if there's a big chasm near the enemy so that i could kill it with a launch skill or something like that.

The biggest difference is that a game like Dark Souls depends on the player's reflexive skills, since it's a action RPG. You can defeat a lv100 enemy with a lv 1 character because you can dodge every enemy attack, it's not a matter of depth.

I mean, Dark Souls has my favorite action based combat in videogames, but you're simply wrong about XCX.
 

correojon

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,410
I played a lot more Dark Souls than Xenoblade X.

It's simply not true. A lot of enemies in XCX are more dangerous than others despite lower lvs because of specific behaviors. Some enemies are easier to deal with depending on your class and equipment in the same way. WIth a lv 40 party, i could kill lots of lv60 enemies and die against other lv 40 enemies. I could even kill lv 80 enemies depending on the geography, like if there's a big chasm near the enemy so that i could kill it with a launch skill or something like that.

The biggest difference is that a game like Dark Souls depends on the player's reflexive skills, since it's a action RPG. You can defeat a lv100 enemy with a lv 1 character because you can dodge every enemy attack, it's not a matter of depth.

I mean, Dark Souls has my favorite action based combat in videogames, but you're simply wrong about XCX.
OK, can you give examples about enemies with those specific behaviours that make them more dangerous and how do they affect affect the player? Even though I put 150+ hours into Xenoblade X I can´t remember any situation where I had to switch tactics against specific enemies.

I wouldn´t say that the main difference between DS and Xenoblade is that DS requires reflexes: Inputs in DS are rarely demanding, usually the flow of the game is slow, enemy attacks have huge wind-ups and you are even given tools to make speed a non-issue in most situations like shields and armor (plus there is a huge input-buffer which makes timing even less relevant). The difference is that DS is more about studying the enemy, understanding it, coming up with a way to beat it and executing it. And that´s not even taking into consideration enemy groups, geography and environmental stuff. DS is a reactive game where the player is constantly adapting his plan to the enemy´s actions. Xenoblade´s combat system is an active one: The success depends almost exclusively on stats and on the player correctly executing his plan.
 

Philippo

Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
7,902
No, having to grind for hours because an enemy has higher numbers than mine defeat that purpose, those systems are in place for people who can't stand them or do not have time/will to spend doing something tedious.
Dunkey's latest XI video is a good example of how dated (J)RPGs grind is as a game design philosophy.
 

Majukun

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,542
no, but you have to substitute the missing gameplay with something else..otherwise you end up with final fantasy 13
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
No, having to grind for hours because an enemy has higher numbers than mine defeat that purpose, those systems are in place for people who can't stand them or do not have time/will to spend doing something tedious.
Dunkey's latest XI video is a good example of how dated (J)RPGs grind is as a game design philosophy.
But aren't there other systems in most RPGs to deal with enemies having higher numbers than yours, like buffs and debuffs?

I imagine most people who grind as soon as they die against a boss weren't using all of their consumables, buffs and debuffs. In a genre where a joke that every fan will relate to is finishing a game with 99 of the best potion available, I think it's hard to believe that many games "require" grind. Especially on default difficulties.

It's an option, not a design philosophy.
 

Deleted member 9486

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,867
But aren't there other systems in most RPGs to deal with enemies having higher numbers than yours, like buffs and debuffs?

I imagine most people who grind as soon as they die against a boss weren't using all of their consumables, buffs and debuffs. In a genre where a joke that every fan will relate to is finishing a game with 99 of the best potion available, I think it's hard to believe that many games "require" grind. Especially on default difficulties.

It's an option, not a design philosophy.

There are, but a lot of us just don't enjoy that type of gamplay and having to put a lot of thought into strategy and maximizing buffs and de-buffs, figuring out boss/enemy weaknesses.

We're playing these games for the story/characters and character development, questing, exploration etc. as few genres with gameplay we like do those things as well as RPGs.

Thus it's great for games to give options to make things faster an easier for us, while having all that stuff optional--along with more options to make things more challenging--for people who love delving into deeper systems and strategies.

This is a hardcore gamer site, so more here like games mostly or solely for gameplay. Which is fine. But there are plenty of us who play games more for story, atmosphere, characters etc. as a lot of that is richer and deeper than movies or tv shows. Books are second to none there, but I read and write so much for work (and forum time wasting) that I have a hard time spending much free time on novels.