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Do Anakin's actions as a Jedi outweigh his crimes as Darth Vader?
- Thread starter John Doe
- Start date
You can do a lifetime of good deeds and murder one person and you're overwhelmingly bad overall. Good deeds and bad deeds aren't a balancing scale.
Only real argument I can muster playing devil's advocate (beyond powerful light siders just having automatic access to the ghost form) is that the Force ghost committee consisting of dudes like Yoda and Obi-Wan partly blame themselves not just for Anakin, but for being so blind to Sheev "Palps" Palpatine who was right under their noses the whole time.
He's largely responsible for everything bad that happens from part 3 onwards, his actions as a jedi don't come close to that, yea technically he's redeemed by the very end but that doesn't take away from his mistakes.
I'm pretty sure without him many other people still would have been saved, and those people would not have then later gone on to be a genocidal maniac
If I save a child from a burning building, and then shoot the mother, that hardly 'equals it out'
If I save a child from a burning building, and then shoot the mother, that hardly 'equals it out'
Uhm. I might be missing something but what quantifiable good has Anakin done? He saved blew up a satellite as a kid to save Naboo. Then he's remembered as a war hero who fought in the Clone Wars.
Vader, the the other hand, started off by enacting the genocide of the Jedi followed by acting as Palpatine's personal hunting dog and enforcer. For 23 years.
Vader, the the other hand, started off by enacting the genocide of the Jedi followed by acting as Palpatine's personal hunting dog and enforcer. For 23 years.
That time Vader personally delivered a force sensitive BABY to Palpatine's incredibly creepy programming center and said "who's next?"
vader used force future predictive powers and only murdered men that he saw would grow up to be hitler. women and children too. yeah, its a bit weird an entire village of sand people would all have genocidal tendencies, but you can't argue with a force vision bro
he also didn't torture leia, a new hope cuts off right before you see any torture. what really happened was the droid tickled leia
he also didn't torture leia, a new hope cuts off right before you see any torture. what really happened was the droid tickled leia
No? Things aren't always simple, and rehabilitation is a thing.
he was just following orders you seeThat time Vader personally delivered a force sensitive BABY to Palpatine's incredibly creepy programming center and said "who's next?"
Most of his actions as a Jedi were moot since the war was basically a pointless massacre on both sides. Like, yeah, the Seperatists were bad, and Anakin saved good people at times while fighting them, but the Clone Wars overall were a futile bloodbath. Any good he 'did' do as Anakin was undone by Vader or the Empire afterwards.
The good that lasted beyond the war was his training of Ashoka, but the Rebellion wasn't all her idea.
The good that lasted beyond the war was his training of Ashoka, but the Rebellion wasn't all her idea.
He went out of his way to murder Tusken Raiders when that wasn't his mission at all. Still holds a grudge toward them years after wiping out the tribe that tortured his mother. But to answer your question, nah.
C'mon we've all done thisThat time Vader personally delivered a force sensitive BABY to Palpatine's incredibly creepy programming center and said "who's next?"
They made him do to much shit in the prequels knowing full well that he would be redeemed as a force ghost later.
This.
There was no "good" in the Clone Wars. The Republic (led by the Jedi) were the pawns of Palpatine, fighting the Seperatists (led by people like General Grievous or Count Dooku) who were also pawns of Palpatine. Both armies rolled up on peaceful planets and forced them to choose a side, but it didn't matter what side they chose, because both sides were Palpatine's side. Oh wow, Anakin managed to fight off the Seperatists and convinced the people to side with the Republic? That's no victory, that's just setting those people up to become willing subjects of the Empire.
Also, Palpatine handed the Jedi an army of Clones, and the Jedi cheered and called themselves "Generals" and rode off into glorious battle, but those Clones were people, and the Jedi were easily tricked into treating them like disposable people, aka slaves.
And the Clone slave army fought armies of Droids, but Star Wars also tells us that Droids are living beings, people in any sense of the word, but lacking the rights that are afforded to other kinds of people. Droids in Star Wars are disposable people, aka slaves.
So in the Clone Wars, Jedi (like Anakin) led armies of slaves to fight and die, massacring themselves to massacre the armies of slaves on the other side. Death and destruction on a colossal scale, for a cause that was absolutely pointless (to everyone except Palpatine). And this was the arena where the "good" Anakin really shined, in sending his army of slaves to fight and die and murder massive numbers of those other slaves.
The last "good" thing Anakin did in the Clone Wars was chop Count Dooku's head off, to "rescue" Palpatine from Dooku. The Jedi (and the Seperatists) were played for fools by Palpatine and were beaten absolutely before they even lifted a finger.
He was murdering children way before that. And not just the children but the men and the women too
Vader massacred a large number of jedi younglings. He also acted as an enforcer for a regime that killed billions
his past is his past. you can't weigh what he did wrong versus what he did right. his crimes were enormous, and from there, it was on him to atone. there is no answer for what atonement is. but his past also does not define his future, and as a person, he could still do good things present. for him, that was one act and he lost his life.
if you want to know "was Darth Vader more good than evil", you can't answer it in that way. he was a man who did good, but then was seduced by evil incarnate, and had his own torment and demons used against him. from there, he was horrifically scarred and traumatized. he did many bad things after that. but in a moment of importance, he did what was right. and in the end, i think, all we can ask of someone in life is that they change from what they did wrong.
Anakin was a good person until he wasn't. Anakin was a bad person until he wasn't. all of this is true.
if you want to know "was Darth Vader more good than evil", you can't answer it in that way. he was a man who did good, but then was seduced by evil incarnate, and had his own torment and demons used against him. from there, he was horrifically scarred and traumatized. he did many bad things after that. but in a moment of importance, he did what was right. and in the end, i think, all we can ask of someone in life is that they change from what they did wrong.
Anakin was a good person until he wasn't. Anakin was a bad person until he wasn't. all of this is true.
That's why Lucas made Anakin start out the movies as a kid. The real tragedy comes from kid Anakin who was a really nice boy and not teen Anakin who was messed up.
The only thing I think the prequels got absolutely wrong is having Anakin kill children. Vader in the OT isn't evil, he's just a highly competent threat. His Ep6 redemption doesn't work at all if you know he killed a school full of elementary kids as part of a fascist coup.
Counter-points to "he blew up a planet" and "he murdered kids":
- Planets are nothing in Star Wars. Have you ever seen a planet in this galaxy with, like, more than 2 cities? Exactly. Blowing up a planet is like using a single nuke. Whatever.
- Fuck them kids
🤪
- Planets are nothing in Star Wars. Have you ever seen a planet in this galaxy with, like, more than 2 cities? Exactly. Blowing up a planet is like using a single nuke. Whatever.
- Fuck them kids
🤪
From a certain point of view...
I legit barked out in laughter at this one. Best post in the thread. 🥲 So much wasted potential...
He went out of his way to murder Tusken Raiders when that wasn't his mission at all. Still holds a grudge toward them years after wiping out the tribe that tortured his mother. But to answer your question, nah.
And Tusken Raiders Worship Vader after that.
It would be like if Heinrich Himmler had a change of heart and stabbed Hitler in the back in 1945 and surrendered himself. It wouldn't make a difference, he would still be a monster.
Bearing in mind that we don't see most of his actions between when he starts murdering kids as a teenager and his actions as Darth Vader at the start of ANH, and I think it's fair to say all that 20+ years was largely him doing evil shit too, then no, I don't think his handful of years as a junior Jedi count for much.