CDPR has shown who they really are multiple times now. Anyone denying it is clearly doing so in bad faith.
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Diversity must not lead to conflict, according to CD Projekt Red studio head [PCGamer] (New Translation in Threadmarks)
- Thread starter Lant_War
- Start date
That's what kills me. You know what I have never done, not once? Go into any of the other threads and bring this stuff up. Not once. In fact due to what I think of the company I have no interest so I scroll by as any thread that I am not interested. These threads are the only time I ever do, and it's because it's directly about the issue, and it is an issue that affects me.
But they sure as hell love coming here to either defend them or rant about how much they love the game, can't wait to play it, and fuck those of us with a problem.
Tiring doesn't even cover it anymore, I am exhausted and exasperated.
Edit: Eh. I immediately regret writing all of this. I am an infrequent visitor to these threads, but I can see this is all well-worn territory and people are tired of it all. I'll leave it, but you should probably just skip over it. I sense the fatigue. There's clearly also a lot of stuff CDPR needs to do, even if this statement ends up being fine. I do still want to suggest that it is possible to separate the art from the artist - and no, not in the direction ppl normally mean. Judge the art harshly. It must stand on its own, and when it no longer can, it will crumble. That's fine. But, maybe a tiny bit of grace is due to individuals who may be trying but just aren't doing a good job. Even bad people are human, too. How much more so the well-intentioned but unequipped? (And that's rhetorical. Everyone will have a different answer.)
I have no opinions on what was said. It's a discussion of a highly sensitive topic made through a translation (that's somewhat in doubt). The intent of the words are filtered through multiple layers of understanding - and at the end of the day, may well still be terrible and reflective of rot within the company. I do not know. And I have no intention to speculate.
What I will say is that regardless of what our opinions may be, it is worthwhile to consider the context. The man seems to believe that he is challenging the status quo and pushing for rights and bold shifts in understanding and tolerance. Many of us disagree with that characterization. Why? Well, it could be that he's insincere and faking it. It could be that he's inarticulate or unfamiliar with the language. It could be a mistranslation (doesn't seem like that'd change much to many here). Or.. maybe both can be true. Perhaps Popper is trying to make a seemingly radical statement that, to our eyes, still falls woefully short.
As the article mentions, Poland has become very conservative. Even alt-right. The President refused to allow same sex marriage nor adoption by couples. He called LGBT rights equivalent to Soviet indoctrination, then told an LGBT activist he invited (theoretically to smooth things over) that he was well within his rights to make those comments thanks to free speech. He signed an order that disallowed people from saying Poland had any complicity in the Holocaust (historically controversial, but it was the home of many of the most infamous concentration camps and pogroms). This dude ran far right, and won. He's still far right (just recently tapped into anti-vax sentiment for a boost in this year's reelection campaign) and he's leading by even more this time around.
So.. Poland is, as a whole, becoming more tolerant of nationalist ideologies (not uniformly, of course). CDPR is treated pretty well in Poland, not surprisingly. Lots of respect. In this context, for CDPR to be championing any form of LGBT expression, especially in a Polish language format for a Polish audience is certainly a challenge. Not necessarily praise worthy, but it's not an insignificant step.
No, that doesn't absolve the company or its individuals from being held to task about how they eventually handle these issues and portray them in their media. I can definitely buy the argument that unconscious biases can come through in art. And we are free to judge that art and the values it presents. But I do think (as discussed within the article) that it's worthwhile to try to understand someone's intent and meaning before we make judgments on their fundamental character based on a poorly worded sentence. If the translation shows that the dude really did say a dumb stupid shitty thing, then we can absolutely challenge his words. And if he has a pattern of willfully continuing to do this sort of thing despite opportunities to improve, then he's made his choice.
But if he didn't intend to offend - then I don't see the need to call him or the company trash. Misguided, foolish, not worthy of creative trust or your money, sure maybe. But.. not trash. Judge the art itself harshly - it must stand on its own. Words can be taken apart and dissected and interpreted and condemned. That's ok.
But still, bad people are humans too. IMO that's something we shouldn't forget.
What I will say is that regardless of what our opinions may be, it is worthwhile to consider the context. The man seems to believe that he is challenging the status quo and pushing for rights and bold shifts in understanding and tolerance. Many of us disagree with that characterization. Why? Well, it could be that he's insincere and faking it. It could be that he's inarticulate or unfamiliar with the language. It could be a mistranslation (doesn't seem like that'd change much to many here). Or.. maybe both can be true. Perhaps Popper is trying to make a seemingly radical statement that, to our eyes, still falls woefully short.
As the article mentions, Poland has become very conservative. Even alt-right. The President refused to allow same sex marriage nor adoption by couples. He called LGBT rights equivalent to Soviet indoctrination, then told an LGBT activist he invited (theoretically to smooth things over) that he was well within his rights to make those comments thanks to free speech. He signed an order that disallowed people from saying Poland had any complicity in the Holocaust (historically controversial, but it was the home of many of the most infamous concentration camps and pogroms). This dude ran far right, and won. He's still far right (just recently tapped into anti-vax sentiment for a boost in this year's reelection campaign) and he's leading by even more this time around.
So.. Poland is, as a whole, becoming more tolerant of nationalist ideologies (not uniformly, of course). CDPR is treated pretty well in Poland, not surprisingly. Lots of respect. In this context, for CDPR to be championing any form of LGBT expression, especially in a Polish language format for a Polish audience is certainly a challenge. Not necessarily praise worthy, but it's not an insignificant step.
No, that doesn't absolve the company or its individuals from being held to task about how they eventually handle these issues and portray them in their media. I can definitely buy the argument that unconscious biases can come through in art. And we are free to judge that art and the values it presents. But I do think (as discussed within the article) that it's worthwhile to try to understand someone's intent and meaning before we make judgments on their fundamental character based on a poorly worded sentence. If the translation shows that the dude really did say a dumb stupid shitty thing, then we can absolutely challenge his words. And if he has a pattern of willfully continuing to do this sort of thing despite opportunities to improve, then he's made his choice.
But if he didn't intend to offend - then I don't see the need to call him or the company trash. Misguided, foolish, not worthy of creative trust or your money, sure maybe. But.. not trash. Judge the art itself harshly - it must stand on its own. Words can be taken apart and dissected and interpreted and condemned. That's ok.
But still, bad people are humans too. IMO that's something we shouldn't forget.
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CDPR has followed a pattern of transphobic behavior throughout the past few years. No need to give it the benefit of a doubt.
And if it is saying this to appease Poland's far-right audience, then that says everything really.
Oh my god so much this. Even though it's super tempting sometimes I haven't gone into, say that thread where they said they removed wall running just to shit it up. Same cannot be said about the other way round where you just get drive-by posts that are basically 'buying game anyways lul' and all round dismissal.
People have already dismissed the multiple times they have shown themselves to be transphobic, I'm not surprised that we get the same drive-bys in this thread too.
As mentioned above me, CDPR's views have already been documented and woven into their game. You can't really separate the art from the artist here.
I am glad you immediately got rid of your original post though and I do think there is potential to learn and to educate yourself on why people here are tired and upset. At the end of the day, it's just a video game and human rights will always trump that.
Yeah, for example, it's pretty tempting for me to go into a THQ thread and remind people about their 8chan stunt. I doubt people would care anyway.
There's certainly plenty of evidence to reasonably judge CDPR lacking and even unrepentant. I can see that it's tiring to have to repeat them constantly.
My expectations have certainly lowered for the product, especially in this area. The skepticism seems unfortunately well-founded. But even so, I still curious how we'll judge the final work they eventually put out. My point is that they're NOT appealing to Poland's far-right audience with these statements (the game itself.. we'll see). I bet the statements probably piss a lot of those people off, even if we simultaneously don't think they go nearly far enough. Both of those things can be true. It is POSSIBLE that (some of) the people involved may legitimately think and believe that they're handling things to the legitimate best of their ability. Succeed or not, I personally don't want to totally invalidate that.
I am maybe a tiny bit, like 5%, hopeful that the fact that they're trying to tackle these issues at all will result in something satisfying and meaningful. No, it's not likely, I understand. Just maybe. But that said, it's perfectly understandable to be out of patience and done with this. I get it, sorry for making you guys deal with it a bit more.
Feels like you've skipped a lot of the discussion this far in. We all know.
Oh I just went to the threadmark and thought most were ignoring it.
It's not ignored. It was one line that had a different translation that didn't really change the intent just the wording of that one sentence nevermind all the problematic other stuff.
It was found by a known defender of the game who uses a cyberpunk avatar and the one or two word mistranslation is only a gotcha for the defense force since again, it doesn't change much. other than for accuracy the thread mark is almost insulting since it changes nothing. And it sure doesn't change the six other incidents preceding this.
Oh okay. I was mistaken. I thought it changed the entire context.
Everyone who says that the interview is fine with the new translation is disregarding these very valid points:
Also, this paragraph is inexcusable:
And it makes no sense with their "diversity does not generate conflict" statement right afterwards.
You're telling me a chunk of people at cdpr are bigoted (which the company is saying is fine with them because they're super-tolerant) and there's no conflict between them and the minorities in the studio? That just sounds like "our employees are good at looking the other way when bigotry is happening".
Translation or no, it's all the same. CDPR is the kind of status-quo-defending corporation that would be seen as evil in a cyberpunk world, ironic.
Also, this paragraph is inexcusable:
And it makes no sense with their "diversity does not generate conflict" statement right afterwards.
You're telling me a chunk of people at cdpr are bigoted (which the company is saying is fine with them because they're super-tolerant) and there's no conflict between them and the minorities in the studio? That just sounds like "our employees are good at looking the other way when bigotry is happening".
Translation or no, it's all the same. CDPR is the kind of status-quo-defending corporation that would be seen as evil in a cyberpunk world, ironic.
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To be fair, even though they do come across as a garbage company and pretty much every time they open their mouths lately it's another yikes, I'm not convinced they need to pander to anti-LGBT+ sentiments in Poland to any degree. They're a huge company that is securely above these concerns in their day to day business, and even though Poland isn't a small market for their games, the vast majority of their customers are worldwide.
It just simply might be how they really feel, completely divorced from whatever bullshit is happening in Poland.
To be honest, I don't understand how that supposedly new translation changes anything. It comes from a "Polish gaming friend" of a user with a Cyberpunk avatar, who clearly has a vested interest in this game. I'm sorry, but I just can't take it at face value. I'm sure we have a ton of Polish members who can translate the sentence on their own to verify whether the old or the "new" translation is OK.
But even if it were, even if you could somehow forget the constant dogwhistling and openly LGBTIphobic actions they have taken, we have:
I'm fucking tired of this shit company and certain users making excuses for every single "faux pas" they make.
But even if it were, even if you could somehow forget the constant dogwhistling and openly LGBTIphobic actions they have taken, we have:
I'm fucking tired of this shit company and certain users making excuses for every single "faux pas" they make.
You can also check changed language in the CDPR article, I did not expect my post to become threadmarked as it isn't official language of the translation on CDPR site. That way you don't need throw shade and not so subtle implications at me.
Here, paragraph that was changed
Mutual respect and tolerance are the foundation of creativity and innovation - interview with Adam Kiciński and Adam Badowski - CD PROJEKT
Katarzyna Kucharczyk: – The LGBT rights issue has become a hot topic. On top of that, the Company had postponed Night City Wire in light of the social unrest in the USA. Why does CD
www.cdprojekt.com
Intent post-change is still same as my friend translated, just with more awkward wording. Diversity doesn't lead to conflict.
You don't have to agree with anything in the interview or even parts of with changed translation. I have my issues with it too, but that isn't here or there as you clearly have decided already who or what I'm in this conversation.
You can also check changed language in the CDPR article, I did not expect my post to become threadmarked as it isn't official language of the translation on CDPR site. That way you don't need throw shade and not so subtle implications at me.
Here, paragraph that was changed
Mutual respect and tolerance are the foundation of creativity and innovation - interview with Adam Kiciński and Adam Badowski - CD PROJEKT
Katarzyna Kucharczyk: – The LGBT rights issue has become a hot topic. On top of that, the Company had postponed Night City Wire in light of the social unrest in the USA. Why does CD
Intent post-change is still same as my friend translated, just with more awkward wording. Diversity doesn't lead to conflict.
You don't have to agree with anything in the interview or even parts of with changed translation. I have my issues with it too, but that isn't here or there as you clearly have decided already who or what I'm in this conversation.
I'm not "throwing shade" or "subtle implications" at you. I'm directly saying that I can't trust solely what you say your friend translated because you clearly have an interest in defending this company and their products. I'm not passing judgment of you or what "you are", as you say, but you as a source of non-partisan information in this matter.
And, I say it again: even if the translation wasn't well done or as nuanced as it should have been, there is a metric ton of bullshit that cannot be given a pass. One ackwardly-translated line doesn't magically erase everything this company has done. Which, coincidentally, goes in line with the original translation... curious.
User Banned (1 Month): Dismissive Posting in a Sensitive Thread
Have you played the game ?
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Just don't buy from them, that's how it works. The game doesn't look like the miracle the media has promised us anyway. Doesn't matter what apology they throw at us after.
Is the far right of Poland that "powerful" ? Like would a company try to please them somehow? Genuinely asking, because I don't know how it works over there.
Is the far right of Poland that "powerful" ? Like would a company try to please them somehow? Genuinely asking, because I don't know how it works over there.
CDPR is the most valued company in Poland and on top of that they got fundings from the Polish government, so does several other polish studios like Techland, 11bit studios, Flying Wild Hog etc. It's clear that they cannot be upfront and condmen the far right in a clear way by making a statement for obvious (monetary) reasons and they want to keep both sides "happy".
One of the reasons why I post on Resetera is the push for progressive attitudes and the zero tolerance for bigotry and anti-LGBT nonsense, with that being said It might be best getting the site staff opinion on how to deal with discussion for CDPR releases from here on out.
I think a fair way to deal with this is the same way moderators had to address how discussions in regards to THQ Nordic published titles were handed from the 8Chan fiasco.
I am refering to this post in question - https://www.resetera.com/threads/th...read-threadmarks.102061/page-99#post-18377330
If staff ultimately decides to ban discussion for CDPR games, then that might be a fair approach to deal with any threads in regards to CDPR games in the future.
I think a fair way to deal with this is the same way moderators had to address how discussions in regards to THQ Nordic published titles were handed from the 8Chan fiasco.
I am refering to this post in question - https://www.resetera.com/threads/th...read-threadmarks.102061/page-99#post-18377330
If staff ultimately decides to ban discussion for CDPR games, then that might be a fair approach to deal with any threads in regards to CDPR games in the future.
When it comes to minorities, Poland is probably the most backwards country in Europe (and honestly that is saying something, because there's also Slovakia and Hungary and others).
Whether or not the general atmosphere in Poland is something CDPR needs to be concerned with is a matter of some debate, though.
I actually think it's fine for people to go into cyberpunk threads and remind people of their shitty attitudes. That's not shitting up threads imo. Of course if you go in posting "fuck you all for still buying this game you pieces of shit" that's a different story and will just get you banned, but reminding people of their dumb ass remarks is fine imo.
It's actually exhausting the fucking mental gymnastics people will do to keep enjoying their media from bigoted creators.
Generally the whole eastern europe block is pretty much backwards when it comes to minorities and how they are treated.
I wouldnt post in a tech analysis or thread about wall running or whatever, but I did post in a thread praising player agency in the game. It was nonsense that they could praise player agency in a cyberpunk game with such shit character creation options for anyone not cisgender.
My posts were completely ignored 😒
Alas, it's true. There are degrees, but... yes.
And I'm saying that as someone who comes from one of those countries.
Read the article in original Polish. No mistranslation here in my opinion. Very calculated, 'be diplomatic' approach.
Nah, that's Russia. And please don't come back with 'that's not really Europe' or some such.
Nah, that's Russia. And please don't come back with 'that's not really Europe' or some such.
It's quite clear this statement is critical of the increasing popularity of the far right in Europe. How else would you interpret it?
Yes, but that's not really Europe, not culturally and barely geographically, and you're welcome to disagree. I get it helps thinking your country isn't the worst in Europe.
There are previews out. They were marketing this game with diversity and creating your character any way you want gender wise, but in reality you are either he or she, depending on only one factor: The tone of your voice.
That's pretty fucking bad.
The fact there's no gender neutral dialogue is bad, but it should be easy to have a male / female dialogue option in character creation. I think if people keep on raising it to them they'll stick it in.
I mean, you are just incorrect so no need to disagree here. Perhaps one day you will be less ignorant. As for Poland, I'm not attached to how my country is perceived abroad as I have no control over it, same for the current US situation. Wish it was better though, for sure.
Almost 80% of Russians live in Europe - the bulk of it's landmass lies east of that but is mostly empty.
Culturally Europe is like ring species, Russian culture is quite different to French or Spanish culture but quite similar to the East Slavic cultures and not too far removed from Polish.
That is bad , the impression I get is that after the transphobic post on gog they are trying to make amends with stuff like the character creater and statements like these. Problem is the damage is kinda already done, I respect peoples views on this company as they have brought it on themselves.
Literally nothing has shown that they're attempting to make amends so please don't afford them that grace until they've done something to warrant it.
Especially when you run into topics like these purely to throw 'have you played the game?' at people with more knowledge on these issues than you.
I have news for you. They don't really care since they might be bigoted themselves.
We could debate this for hours, since I'm not nearly as "ignorant" about Russia as you believe me to be, but cba.
I amend my original statement to "in the EU", that should make you happy.
Maybe your right and they are just worried about backlash and there sales. I was more referring to developers who are lgbtq+ community members who commented on the poster in the game. The gog comments were just flat out offensive.
Would be the bare minimum honestly. The fact that they marketed it as you being able to create any type of character in regards to gender as recently as a year ago but then you're forced to be male or female will stay though.
God, these people are genuinely transphobic, bigoted pieces of shit and they're proud of it. Absolute trash.
It would definitely be an improvement if they uncoupled the voice from the pronoun but I doubt they will change it. It would mean re-recording sentences with a reference to the character's gender, which is a lot of additional voice acting work, especially for gendered languages.
The poster is flat-out offensive and the excuse given for it is pitiful.