Diversity and Inclusion in Videogames |OT| Because it Matters

[P-Tux7]

I'm surprised the sexism (you're a guy who plays games with cute boys? haha)/homophobia (you're a guy who plays a game with hot boys? haha/transphobia (we'll call you the wrong gender despite your protests haha) in Mystic Messenger didn't get slammed more.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/wh...tion-situations-in-games.108076/post-19305367

 

[Deleted member 4976]

I'm surprised the sexism (you're a guy who plays games with cute boys? haha)/homophobia (you're a guy who plays a game with hot boys? haha/transphobia (we'll call you the wrong gender despite your protests haha) in Mystic Messenger didn't get slammed more.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/wh...tion-situations-in-games.108076/post-19305367

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Oh wow, I haven't played (or heard of this game) until now. Is it a game focused around texting?

 

[Deleted member 20850]

Oh wow, I haven't played (or heard of this game) until now. Is it a game focused around texting?

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If I remember correctly it's a Korean otome game for phones. The interaction with the guys is mainly handled through a chat app simulation where you get your dialog choices.

 

[texhnolyze]

I'm not sure if this is related to this topic or not. I'm thinking of making a thread about it but I'll just post it here first, I guess.

I've been thinking, every single video game release is aimed at NA/EU audience (and Japan for that version). For everything, from teasers, announcements, to release date and unlock time. But how about the rest of the world, especially Eastern parts of Asia and Oceania?

Let's take the happening event, Borderlands 3 reveal on March 28th at 6PM GMT. What does that mean for us? It's going to be announced on past midnight on the 29th. There are also live events like the E3, GDC, Pax, as well as e-sports tournaments and the others. They're mostly happening past midnight so there's no way for us to watch any of them. I know, it's impossible to cater to everyone around the globe. However, those events are the platform to announce and promote games that are going to be (or being) sold worldwide, including our region. I just feel that we're being left off and we have to deal with it.

Now, the most important problem for me is release date and/or unlock time for video games. Every single promotional material, from website, banners, to trailers would use NA/EU release date. But that's not the case for us, most games are going to be released in the next day. This often creates confusion among my peers, "When is the game coming out, today or tomorrow?". Seasoned players would've noticed the pattern, that games usually release at past midnight of the next day, but the masses still confused most of the time. To circumvent this, some publishers have actually applied regional unlock times in the past, which means that the games will be playable in our region way earlier than the other parts of the world. However, this creates another problem, people from said parts of the world usually against this idea, calling the publisher unfair and so on. Meanwhile, some others would use VPN so that they can play earlier. These would push the publishers to not offer regional unlock anymore so that they don't have to deal with it. And we're back to square one. This has always been the norm as people have accepted it, and it's kind of frustrating.

We're always being treated as the 2nd class citizens by publishers, even though they actually want our money as well.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

I'm not sure if this is related to this topic or not. I'm thinking of making a thread about it but I'll just post it here first, I guess.

I've been thinking, every single video game release is aimed at NA/EU audience (and Japan for that version). For everything, from teasers, announcements, to release date and unlock time. But how about the rest of the world, especially Eastern parts of Asia and Oceania?

Let's take the happening event, Borderlands 3 reveal on March 28th at 6PM GMT. What does that mean for us? It's going to be announced on past midnight on the 29th. There are also live events like the E3, GDC, Pax, as well as e-sports tournaments and the others. They're mostly happening past midnight so there's no way for us to watch any of them. I know, it's impossible to cater to everyone around the globe. However, those events are the platform to announce and promote games that are going to be (or being) sold worldwide, including our region. I just feel that we're being left off and we have to deal with it.

Now, the most important problem for me is release date and/or unlock time for video games. Every single promotional material, from website, banners, to trailers would use NA/EU release date. But that's not the case for us, most games are going to be released in the next day. This often creates confusion among my peers, "When is the game coming out, today or tomorrow?". Seasoned players would've noticed the pattern, that games usually release at past midnight of the next day, but the masses still confused most of the time. To circumvent this, some publishers have actually applied regional unlock times in the past, which means that the games will be playable in our region way earlier than the other parts of the world. However, this creates another problem, people from said parts of the world usually against this idea, calling the publisher unfair and so on. Meanwhile, some others would use VPN so that they can play earlier. These would push the publishers to not offer regional unlock anymore so that they don't have to deal with it. And we're back to square one. This has always been the norm as people have accepted it, and it's kind of frustrating.

We're always being treated as the 2nd class citizens by publishers, even though they actually want our money as well.

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...Honestly, that's fair critique. Just as game development is either concentrated in or controlled by the three major extant markets, so too is game publication and that includes its own issues. To extend the Borderlands example further, while you can easily imagine that sort of reveal from PAX, or E3, or Gamescom, or a number of the myriad events that take place in the northern hemisphere, I really wouldn't imagine such a thing being first revealed at say, an event in New Zealand, and that's a wealthy country. Yet that kind of draw to major events can help in drawing attention to other, smaller games, because it gets people paying attention to what's going on in general. So not only are 'you' - that is, a large number of those outside the expected markets - stuck having to watch events that don't seem to much consider your ability to actually partake, there's not always ready alternatives to look forward to.

So yeah, it's not even an issue of just games themselves, but the wider infrastructure in the real world concerning them too.

 

[P-Tux7]

By the way...

Do you guys think SEGA is complicit in Atlus being... themselves?

 

[Deleted member 4976]

By the way...

Do you guys think SEGA is complicit in Atlus being... themselves?

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By allowing it or encouraging it?

 

[P-Tux7]

By allowing it or encouraging it?

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Yeah, by not stepping in. I know people call Atlus out for this but I'm not sure if SEGA shares blame as well.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

Glad you made this thread.
But I have a question for anyone who wants to answer this?
Do you guys think that most of the time developers go after diverse characters because of a fetish they might have versus wanting a game to be diverse and inclusive? The reason why I asked this is seeing Morrigan's post about redheads and made me wonder about that in games in general.

 

[Tfritz]

By the way...

Do you guys think SEGA is complicit in Atlus being... themselves?

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given the writing in dx2 liberation, yes.

 

[Deleted member 4976]

Yeah, by not stepping in. I know people call Atlus out for this but I'm not sure if SEGA shares blame as well.

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Yea, I'd call them complicit.

I think it's one thing as a publisher to publish a game that you later find out has problematic elements, but another entirely to be publishing the fifth or sixth game with similar complaints being levied at it as prior entries.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Glad you made this thread.
But I have a question for anyone who wants to answer this?
Do you guys think that most of the time developers go after diverse characters because of a fetish they might have versus wanting a game to be diverse and inclusive? The reason why I asked this is seeing Morrigan's post about redheads and made me wonder about that in games in general.

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I think it's more often that while developers choose to include a greater diversity of characters because of wanting greater diversity - though that may be more in the vein of wanting X character to be visibly different from Y, rather than necessarily thinking 'my cast is lacking in redheads', for example - how that 'diversity' manifests, and whether or not is genuinely inclusive, is much more variable. Indeed, to go with the issue you're critiquing, there is very genuinely an issue in which, having decided upon they'll create a new character from somewhere new and different, especially if that character is female, the developers will design said character as according to their 'interests', as such.

An easy demonstration of this comes through several of Nintendo's more recent outings. Breath of the Wild, ARMS, and Splatoon 2. These are games that have had a warm reception because, among other things, they featured women of colour in prominent roles, and with fairly distinct characterisation. Others however have realised that Nintendo's primary representation of women of colour in said games are also, well... all pretty sexualised. That kind of presentation isn't inherently bad and I know several people who have deeply appreciated it, but even they are getting a little sick of this being the default framing of any women darker than a slight tan. But that's the default lens that a lot of developers take to the concept.

 

[Deleted member 401]

Oh wow, I haven't played (or heard of this game) until now. Is it a game focused around texting?

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Yep. I have a friend who was really into it.

 

[sabrina]

Glad you made this thread.
But I have a question for anyone who wants to answer this?
Do you guys think that most of the time developers go after diverse characters because of a fetish they might have versus wanting a game to be diverse and inclusive? The reason why I asked this is seeing Morrigan's post about redheads and made me wonder about that in games in general.

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When game designers put a red-headed woman in a game it's almost never an actual diversity play. It's because redheaded women are coded as strong, aggressive or "not like the other girls", all of which suit the more masculine action hero stereotype.

But, yes, people can have ulterior motives when including more diverse characters. Consider, for example, how many more games show women being open with their sexuality compared to men. We have plenty of examples where you can play as a canonically gay or bisexual woman (The Last of Us, Life is Strange, The Missing, Dishonored 2, Prey, Witcher 3, Night in the Woods) but how many are there where the player is a canonically gay male? That option basically only exists in games where all of the characters are functionally pansexual until proven otherwise. If a game even has gay males in the background, you can almost guarantee that there are also at least as many gay women in the game, if not more. And yet a game having bisexual, lesbian or "straight women playing with each other" is no strong indicator that the game will also feature gay men.

Sometimes it's male designers uncomfortable with male sexuality outside of their limited purview. Sometimes it's designers assuming their target demographic would be uncomfortable with it. Sometimes it's other designers discouraging them. I've had a close friend of mine, also a game developer, tell me flat out that he wouldn't play any parts of the game I'm writing where the (female) protagonist potentially dates or seduces men, even if it's a minor thing and over quickly.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

I appreciate the answers you two gave me. Thank you for that.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Sometimes it's male designers uncomfortable with male sexuality outside of their limited purview. Sometimes it's designers assuming their target demographic would be uncomfortable with it. Sometimes it's other designers discouraging them. I've had a close friend of mine, also a game developer, tell me flat out that he wouldn't play any parts of the game I'm writing where the (female) protagonist potentially dates or seduces men, even if it's a minor thing and over quickly.

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God, I think there was a thread about this once, prompted by... Aloy, I think? And just how like, playable female leads are so rarely afforded the ability to actually engage with pursuing relationships or just even showing interest in anyone, outside of games where you've got character selection/creation and it's applicable to the male alternatives as well.

 

[Biestmann]

Some men really have trouble understanding that the stories told in games are not always about them. They have fucking meltdowns if they have to look at things from outside their own perspective.

 

[sabrina]

Some men really have trouble understanding than the stories told in games are not always about them. They have fucking meltdowns if they have to look at things from outside their own perspective.

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Yeah, there's a sect of gamers that hold a self-defeating death grip on their perception of games and it's as sad as it is annoying. You get people who have traditionally felt maligned by society and so they carved out an identity for themselves in what was at one time a niche of entertainment. And not that that's super healthy or responsible, but it's understandable. The problem, then, comes from when these same people refuse to accept outside people who want to enjoy the same media as them because those people are enjoying it for different reasons, and because then the comfortable niche with the unique identity is now less comfortable, less identifying, and overall different.

And obviously gatekeeping is bad for those being kept out, but it also propagates much of the same societal division that motivated this sect of people to self-isolate in the first place. So it's bad for everyone.

This also partially explains the animosity towards so-called casual gamers. There's a certain "while you were having a life at parties, clubs and sportsball, I was having a life in Tamriel, Lordran, Redania" to it. So people playing games on their phones, or using easy games as an activity to just hang out with people they would have already been hanging out with anyway, that's not true gaming.

But even worse, when some of those people start actually playing more "traditional" games, bridging that perceptual gap, what does that say about someone who stays on one side of the divide? Where it used to be "they have X but it's okay because I have Y", now it's becoming "some of these people who I think have X now also have Y, but I still only have Y". And there are at least two harmful conclusions you can draw from this. The first is "I don't know how to have both, so they must be faking too." The second is "I don't know how to have both, so it shouldn't be allowed." It's very selfish.

A lot of this gets abstracted, disguised or glossed over. If people could be more self-aware, then maybe things would change faster. But it's hard to see things from other people's point of view without practicing.

God, I think there was a thread about this once, prompted by... Aloy, I think? And just how like, playable female leads are so rarely afforded the ability to actually engage with pursuing relationships or just even showing interest in anyone, outside of games where you've got character selection/creation and it's applicable to the male alternatives as well.

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Yep. It's been a subject of discussion a fair few times.

 

[P-Tux7]

given the writing in dx2 liberation, yes.

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What happened there?

 

[Tfritz]

What happened there?

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One of the main characters is a girl who is, like, officially listed as having "a girl fetish" and just generally acts super predatory around girls in a way that feels really fetishized for men.

 

[Deleted member 46948]

Replaying Dragon Age Inquisition now, I remembered the shitstorm that followed when the "gamers" found out one of party companions was black, another was a gay male and there was also a transgender person.
For all the things EA does wrong and deserves the hate for, they did a lot for diversity and inclusion in the AAA games.

 

[Icemonk191]

Replaying Dragon Age Inquisition now, I remembered the shitstorm that followed when the "gamers" found out one of party companions was black, another was a gay male and there was also a transgender person.
For all the things EA does wrong and deserves the hate for, they did a lot for diversity and inclusion in the AAA games.

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I legit think the reason EA gets so much more hate than other companies who do equal or more shitty things is that EA is open to the fact that they support diversity and the LGBTQ+ community.

 

[deimosmasque]

I remember the mental gymnastics people went to explain why Iron Bull was out of character for excepting that Krem was a man.

Quoting Sten without understanding that the mysoginistic nature of the Quanari didn't mean it was transphobic.

 

[Glass Arrows]

Question: can you guys think of any game with autistic representation that's actually decent? Struggling to think of anything atm.

 

[deimosmasque]

I can only think of the character in the Mass Effect DLC overload. Where it was a superpower. And considering the Good Doctor on TV autusim as a superpower is still a very real thing so it's probably for the best... At least In the AAA market.

 

[Budi]

God, I think there was a thread about this once, prompted by... Aloy, I think? And just how like, playable female leads are so rarely afforded the ability to actually engage with pursuing relationships or just even showing interest in anyone, outside of games where you've got character selection/creation and it's applicable to the male alternatives as well.

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I liked how in Thronebreaker it was a male NPC having clear interest to the player character, this was regardless of the player showing interest in romance. The player got to decide if they want to entertain that interest or not. From my experience romances in RPG:s are more often initiated by the player, but in Thronebreaker the NPC:s feelings toward the player character come forth first. Though the romance is just a really small part of the game, there aren't many scenes regarding to it. Just couple in addition to the ending, depending if you romanced or not. Still felt cool to me.

 

[Snormy]

Question: can you guys think of any game with autistic representation that's actually decent? Struggling to think of anything atm.

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I imagine this will be quite difficult as well because the scope of autism is quite large and to represent it well for one person might not be a good representation for another.

Perhaps To The Moon
River Wyles has a form of autism, she struggles with articulating her thoughts, emotions and expressions (which relates pretty directly with the story) and has a few other details such as paper origami which is sometimes used for anxiety.

And there is also this which I've been meaning to try but haven't so can't really vouch for it. I believe the dev is making a sequel too.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Question: can you guys think of any game with autistic representation that's actually decent? Struggling to think of anything atm.

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There was some discussion about it earlier in the thread; for some, the likes of Symmetra work, as she is ultimately a character as equally valid to play as anyone else around her, in no way belittled for her condition. But I also noted my personal dissatisfaction with the character, finding that the format of the game doesn't sufficiently permit the kind of interactions necessary to really get the point across.

I imagine this will be quite difficult as well because the scope of autism is quite large and to represent it well for one person might not be a good representation for another.

Perhaps To The Moon
River Wyles has a form of autism, she struggles with articulating her thoughts, emotions and expressions (which relates pretty directly with the story) and has a few other details such as paper origami which is sometimes used for anxiety.

And there is also this which I've been meaning to try but haven't so can't really vouch for it. I believe the dev is making a sequel too.

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As an aside, now I'm gonna take a look at these, because I'm curious.

Honestly though, another particular problem with autism is that many of its behaviours can be abstracted into general eccentricity for other characters; I mentioned earlier that I often end projecting onto characters who are socially stunted - and how this may be part of my love of shonen heroes - but are ultimately just meant to be merely weird and/or idiots. Like, inordinately obsessive characters are a dime a dozen, and I noted that part of why I didn't feel so strongly on Symmetra's dialogue as an indication of her condition was that it's been kinda washed out by other, clearly more functional characters saying similar. That's not exactly a problem of Overwatch itself really, as a wider media landscape that for quite literally centuries has unknowingly tapped into these traits without realising they reflected something more particular. See: The character of Sherlock Holmes, so often today interpreted as likely on the spectrum, yet from a time where the terminology did not exist. Given he was openly inspired by many of the people around Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, someone he knew might well have been undiagnosed, by a modern standard, and those behaviours translated to a character that was 'merely' obsessive and odd.

Plus, well... it's weird to realise, but a lot of presumptions on what constitutes 'good writing' for characters do actually revolve around underlying presumptions of neurotypicality - of what 'realistic' people would do, even as everyone fires off hadokens or flies around on a spaceship.

 

[Deleted member 46948]

Question: can you guys think of any game with autistic representation that's actually decent? Struggling to think of anything atm.

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Night in the Woods had a very good description of mental condition, I don't know if it was specifically autism, but it did sound a lot like it.

 

[Snormy]

While we are on the topic of representation of disabilities I suddenly remembered Katawa Shoujo. First lets get this out of the way. The game is an eroge, NSFW with options to disable sex scenes in the game. It is a bit controversial in some ways and most seem to love/hate it when it comes to representation and others find the very idea a bit appalling. I'd like to try and focus the discussion here on the representations and depictions of people with disabilities though.

Hisao (protagonist) discovers has a sudden heart attack, wakes up in hospital and is told he has a heart condition. He transfers to an accessible school which has medical staff that can provide for his needs. I certainly won't argue with people who find the representation of people with a disability in this story or stories to be poor or unrealistic. In many ways it is. That said, I think some of the processes the characters go through, the smaller details in the slice of life nature of the story are important and worth representing. Particularly for those who are less familiar with disabilities.

With Hisao, we get to see him coping with his new found condition and how he must try to live with it in his mind every moment. How others who can't see his condition might see him and how he sees others with different conditions. A lot of smaller scenes that I have personally experienced such as thoughts as you stay in hospital for an extended amount of time while your friends and family's life continues on outside. How difficult it can be to maintain close relations with your friends due to health issues as well. These types of scenes are a little depressing and thankfully quite short but they are also very real for some people and honestly these scenes were perhaps the most relate-able in the whole game for me.

The smaller subtle stuff isn't the only thing I wanted to bring up. What I thought was done quite well was that aside from Hisao coping with his condition and new environments most of the characters are so natural about everything. I guess there is a lot of details describing the way things are done but I think this is for the audience and Hisao's sake. The characters such as Rin who has no arms's main concerns are in fact nothing to do directly with having no arms. Their stories feature problems and issues that you might find anywhere else and it is just as complicated if not more so due to disabilities.

I don't want to go into too much details and spoilers so i'll just talk about Rin because her story stuck with me the most. I'll tag it for those who would rather play or read the transcript.

Spoiler: Rin

Rin has no arms, that much is obvious from the very beginning. She speaks her mind openly, that much is quickly apparent too even if her ideas can be a bit unique. What you realise a little bit later though is that Rin in fact struggles to articulate and express her own feelings. So when she comes to uncertainty or unhappiness, she cannot properly convey what is wrong or why she avoided something. She is sometimes unable to describe her problems and her reasons or choices. She doesn't understand why and while others around her such as the protagonist often only desire to help they can in fact end up doing more damage than good. Rin's art teacher obviously cares for her and wants her to be at her best. Yet he fails to see Rin is not ready and fails to understand her needs. Hisao also falls into the same situation. He both wants to pursue her romantically and help her as a friend with her art problems. His clumsy handling and inability to understand Rin just causes more frustration. Both are instances of hurting Rin yet neither are out of malice. She takes these without understanding nor the ability to properly articulate how she feels about it or even respond properly. It is incredibly frustrating to read through, more so with the teacher who really should know better. At the same time I feel these scenarios in real life would be incredibly common. How often has someone unknowingly hurt the person they are trying to help? How could they know if she is unable to tell them? Sometimes, you just don't know or you are just not ready and you can't really say when or why. It is incredibly difficult and frustrating, crushing even when those who are meant to support you during trying times end up giving you the most doubt, uncertainty and hurt. These are not strictly disability problems, anyone can struggle to articulate an unfamiliar feeling or emotion. Most people do during teenage years and even beyond but this is again something that adds another layer to someone with a disability and it is the combination of all the layers that makes the person and this story interesting.

As an aside, now I'm gonna take a look at these, because I'm curious.

Honestly though, another particular problem with autism is that many of its behaviours can be abstracted into general eccentricity for other characters

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I probably wouldn't consider games that have eccentric characters who maybe exhibiting symptoms similar to those on the spectrum to be representation, let alone a decent representation. I feel like if you don't even acknowledge it and we have to guess at it, you're only halfway there. Ultimately it is nice to have inclusion but some of these eccentrics are done less for insensitivity but more for stereotyping, humour and can be handled with consideration to those it represents.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

I probably wouldn't consider games that have eccentric characters who maybe exhibiting symptoms similar to those on the spectrum to be representation, let alone a decent representation. I feel like if you don't even acknowledge it and we have to guess at it, you're only halfway there. Ultimately it is nice to have inclusion but some of these eccentrics are done less for insensitivity but more for stereotyping, humour and can be handled with consideration to those it represents.

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I think you misunderstand. What I mean is that potentially autistic characteristics are treated by writers and audiences as weird but 'normal' things in such a way that it's more difficult to depict (or otherwise get the audience to see) something as specifically autistic, rather than just... The character being an idiot shonen hero, for example.

Edit: Meanwhile, me projecting on such characters anyway is because of just how dire offerings otherwise are. They're not representation by and large, no, but they're often what you have to scrape by with.

 

[Albatross]

Question: can you guys think of any game with autistic representation that's actually decent? Struggling to think of anything atm.

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Josh in Watch Dogs 2
https://watchdogs.fandom.com/wiki/Josh_Sauchak

 

[Heid]

Is it weird to ask if theres many (any?) western games that don't have a caucasian majority in the cast? Assuming the game doesn't place in a fantasy world of monsters with no humanoids or games with a just one character/solo protag

 

[Budi]

Is it weird to ask if theres many (any?) western games that don't have a caucasian majority in the cast? Assuming the game doesn't place in a fantasy world of monsters with no humanoids or games with a just one character/solo protag

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One that quickly came to mind is Telltale's Walking Dead Season 3. There's overall great diversity in those games. TWD season 3 has hispanic family as the focus, also with black American kid taking care of another black kid. Though I haven't counted every appearing minor character and NPC, but atleast the main cast and isn't majority caucasian. But yeah, there probably aren't many. I think Broken Age is pretty fifty-fifty with caucasian and non-caucasian for its human characters.

 

[Biestmann]

Is it weird to ask if theres many (any?) western games that don't have a caucasian majority in the cast? Assuming the game doesn't place in a fantasy world of monsters with no humanoids or games with a just one character/solo protag

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Sleeping Dogs comes to mind, though obviously that was dictated by the setting.

 

[Glass Arrows]

Honestly though, another particular problem with autism is that many of its behaviours can be abstracted into general eccentricity for other characters; I mentioned earlier that I often end projecting onto characters who are socially stunted - and how this may be part of my love of shonen heroes - but are ultimately just meant to be merely weird and/or idiots. Like, inordinately obsessive characters are a dime a dozen, and I noted that part of why I didn't feel so strongly on Symmetra's dialogue as an indication of her condition was that it's been kinda washed out by other, clearly more functional characters saying similar. That's not exactly a problem of Overwatch itself really, as a wider media landscape that for quite literally centuries has unknowingly tapped into these traits without realising they reflected something more particular. See: The character of Sherlock Holmes, so often today interpreted as likely on the spectrum, yet from a time where the terminology did not exist. Given he was openly inspired by many of the people around Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, someone he knew might well have been undiagnosed, by a modern standard, and those behaviours translated to a character that was 'merely' obsessive and odd.

Plus, well... it's weird to realise, but a lot of presumptions on what constitutes 'good writing' for characters do actually revolve around underlying presumptions of neurotypicality - of what 'realistic' people would do, even as everyone fires off hadokens or flies around on a spaceship.

Click to shrink...

Are you on the spectrum? I'm personally asking because I am, and I find this interesting because the archetypal battle shounen "idiot hero" is one of my least favorite character archetypes, and very hard for me to relate to and find compelling with very few exceptions. None of that is to belittle you identifying with them of course, I just thought it was an interesting divergence of opinion.

Personally with the likes of Sherlock that's actually something that bothers me a little. A lot of people seem to be under the impression that autistic people are vulcans, when that's pretty inaccurate both to myself and nearly every autistic person i've spoken to. Rather than being stoic and unemotional, it's actually the exact opposite where I feel *too* intensely. And it gets kind of annoying when people get this impression that this kind of character archetype (basically an arrogant, insensitive white guy) is supposed to be accurate. To be fair though, with Holmes it's mostly a problem with reinterpretations of the character, Doyle's original portrayal could be a bit cold/rude on occasion, but he was actually quite polite and even genial sometimes and a very good friend to Watson.

Also, thanks to everyone else for the suggestions. I haven't played To the Moon yet but it's been on my radar. May have to move it up the backlog.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Are you on the spectrum? I'm personally asking because I am, and I find this interesting because the archetypal battle shounen "idiot hero" is one of my least favorite character archetypes, and very hard for me to relate to and find compelling with very few exceptions. None of that is to belittle you identifying with them of course, I just thought it was an interesting divergence of opinion.

Personally with the likes of Sherlock that's actually something that bothers me a little. A lot of people seem to be under the impression that autistic people are vulcans, when that's pretty inaccurate both to myself and nearly every autistic person i've spoken to. Rather than being stoic and unemotional, it's actually the exact opposite where I feel *too* intensely. And it gets kind of annoying when people get this impression that this kind of character archetype (basically an arrogant, insensitive white guy) is supposed to be accurate. To be fair though, with Holmes it's mostly a problem with reinterpretations of the character, Doyle's original portrayal could be a bit cold/rude on occasion, but he was actually quite polite and even genial sometimes and a very good friend to Watson.

Also, thanks to everyone else for the suggestions. I haven't played To the Moon yet but it's been on my radar. May have to move it up the backlog.

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I am indeed. While we evidently diverge on the shonen hero stuff, we're rather in agreement on Sherlock - rather, I presume, the recent BBC incarnation. There's a difference between him, where he mostly just cites his potential status as 'high functioning' in order to excuse his dickishness while learning nothing for it, which the show is pretty much ready to laud him for, and the novel version where he... still does stuff that's off, but can be apologetic for at least not thinking it through first. He tries dammit, even if he also forgets half the time.

But yeah, part of the whole shonen hero thing is that it's kind of a realisation in hindsight for me - what it is I so commonly liked about those characters and why they still endear to me today. Sure, Goku not getting how other people work (particularly as a child) may be more down to his being a country bumpkin than anything else, but I get not... well, getting it, y'know? Or the desire to prove one's self because, even if in much milder fashion, that's what I've tried to do with my life.

That is however part of why it's a spectrum - how it manifests isn't going to be quite the same between the lot of us. Like with all needs of diversity and representation, one example cannot hold up the entirety of the potential experience, and so we flat out need more, so more of the nuances and distinctions may come through.

 

[Kyuuji]

Great thread OP, thank you for making it. Games are an important medium for telling and experiencing stories, as a straight white male having the ability to listen and play through stories that offer insights into other cultures or what it's like to be a minority is incredibly important. There are numerous books where I can get this, and film is starting to get better but, as the OP says, it's important games start to sort push out more in this area.

Also, as an aside as it's not comparable to issues minorities face but as someone that went through a large part of their life verbally and physically abused for being a red-head, and for which that's had lasting consequences in life, any game that has a fleshed out red-head as a key character makes me smile.

 

[Zaied]

Is it weird to ask if theres many (any?) western games that don't have a caucasian majority in the cast? Assuming the game doesn't place in a fantasy world of monsters with no humanoids or games with a just one character/solo protag

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Watch Dogs 2 is a relatively recent game where the main group mostly consists of characters who aren't white - including the protagonist. Marcus & Horatio are black, Josh & Wrench are white, and Sitara is Indian. There's also a black transgender woman who plays a notable role in the story. Overall, I'd say it has an exceptionally balanced cast.

Edit: For some reason, I wasn't initially thinking of Shadow of the Tomb Raider, but it's probably the best recent example. Its cast is comprised of almost entirely black/brown Hispanics & Indigenous people with Lara being the only notable white character in the game. They did a complete 180 from Rise of the Tomb Raider which was basically an all-white cast (I don't really count Jonah since he was barely in the game).

 

[Dary]

Question: can you guys think of any game with autistic representation that's actually decent? Struggling to think of anything atm.

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The problem with the portrayal of autism in the media is that it's a spectrum, but a lot of people with little/no experience of it still treat it like a defined stereotype (you're either a Rainman savant or an Ash Ketchem social clutz with a major hobby obsession).

Which is a shame, because video games could do all sorts of things with some of the less talked about traits, like hyperactive senses.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

The problem with the portrayal of autism in the media is that it's a spectrum, but a lot of people with little/no experience of it still treat it like a defined stereotype (you're either a Rainman savant or an Ash Ketchem social clutz with a major hobby obsession).

Which is a shame, because video games could do all sorts of things with some of the less talked about traits, like hyperactive senses.

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One thing I think about is that video games are one of those mediums that permit an array of choices at once, right? Where sometimes you'll be stuck on a decision for ages because it's unclear what the result will be? That is totally a medium by which you could emulate the difficulties in making such 'choices' in everyday decisions and interactions, where everyone seems to running off a social ruleset they've, more often than not, not taught you how to navigate at all.

 

[More_Badass]

Are you on the spectrum? I'm personally asking because I am, and I find this interesting because the archetypal battle shounen "idiot hero" is one of my least favorite character archetypes, and very hard for me to relate to and find compelling with very few exceptions. None of that is to belittle you identifying with them of course, I just thought it was an interesting divergence of opinion.

Personally with the likes of Sherlock that's actually something that bothers me a little. A lot of people seem to be under the impression that autistic people are vulcans, when that's pretty inaccurate both to myself and nearly every autistic person i've spoken to. Rather than being stoic and unemotional, it's actually the exact opposite where I feel *too* intensely. And it gets kind of annoying when people get this impression that this kind of character archetype (basically an arrogant, insensitive white guy) is supposed to be accurate. To be fair though, with Holmes it's mostly a problem with reinterpretations of the character, Doyle's original portrayal could be a bit cold/rude on occasion, but he was actually quite polite and even genial sometimes and a very good friend to Watson.

Also, thanks to everyone else for the suggestions. I haven't played To the Moon yet but it's been on my radar. May have to move it up the backlog.

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Agreed. I'm on the spectrum (aspergers), and the emotionally-cold portrayal always seems very inaccurate. Like yeah, I internalize things and keep my emotions private, but that's not the same as being unemotional or not empathetic. The "socially awkward to the point of being a joke" personality also seems similarly poor. For me at least, interacting with peers often feels awkward but it's because initiation, actually integrating into a group, is awkward and makes me anxious, and it's easier to hang back and stay solo. Once I'm in with a group, or with friends talking about stuff and hobbies, it's comfortable

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Agreed. I'm on the spectrum (aspergers), and the emotionally-cold portrayal always seems very inaccurate. Like yeah, I internalize things and keep my emotions private, but that's not the same as being unemotional or not empathetic. The "socially awkward to the point of being a joke" personality also seems similarly poor. For me at least, interacting with peers often feels awkward but it's because initiation, actually integrating into a group, is awkward and makes me anxious, and it's easier to hang back and stay solo. Once I'm in with a group, or with friends talking about stuff and hobbies, it's comfortable

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I feel the bolded is missed a lot because of how overly it's conflated with, and/or only depicted as, 'obsession'. So you might end up seeing what a character is 'obsessed' over, but rarely what they're truly interested in and passionate about. It's an important distinction.

 

[P-Tux7]

Does Kotaku take article submissions? I'd love to turn some of "my" threads (that saci posted for me) into longer, better, and more well-cited articles for a wider audience.

 

[P-Tux7]

As a white man, I don't think I'm qualified to answer this question so I'm gonna ask in this thread.

Cuphead takes heavy inspiration from the old Disney, Warner Bros., and Metro-Goldenmeyer cartoon shorts, so it's fitting that it has a lot of the animation stylings, cartoon violence, and visual gags from that era. However, it removes things like the racist stereotypes and some of the more sexist roles. Is it racist for them to harken back to the era while trying to sanitize it? I'm asking because while it is sanitized, it's obvious that the creators still have a lot of admiration for the old cartoons and I'm not sure if that is still a racist thing to do.

 

[Dragon's Game]

I know alot of people hate GTA 4, but i think Rockstar did an amazing job with Niko who is by far the best GTA protagonist and the 3rd best Rockstar protagonist (after Arthur and John)

He's really the only prominent Eastern European/Serbian character in gaming and I think they did well with him

would you guys agree?

 

[HockeyBird]

As a white man, I don't think I'm qualified to answer this question so I'm gonna ask in this thread.

Cuphead takes heavy inspiration from the old Disney, Warner Bros., and Metro-Goldenmeyer cartoon shorts, so it's fitting that it has a lot of the animation stylings, cartoon violence, and visual gags from that era. However, it removes things like the racist stereotypes and some of the more sexist roles. Is it racist for them to harken back to the era while trying to sanitize it? I'm asking because while it is sanitized, it's obvious that the creators still have a lot of admiration for the old cartoons and I'm not sure if that is still a racist thing to do.

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No I don't think it's racist. You can pull from different inspirations of art while not taking from the horrible sides of it. If people were strictly forbidden from using art that may have been used to depict racist and sexist things in the past, then we wouldn't have any options to pick from. Many early black and white movies were racists. You want to make a game with an anime-style? Well that style is used to depict horrific things today.

 

[Buttzerker]

Represntation for Arab characters used to be a disaster. It's gotten a lot better over time, especially in fighting games with Rashid, Shaheen, and Najd. You still get some bad representation but at least there's some good.

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Rashid has the hypest theme of anything ever of all time and that is a win of it's own.


RA

SHI

DOOOOOOOO

 

[Deleted member 4976]

Rashid has the hypest theme of anything ever of all time and that is a win of it's own.


RA

SHI

DOOOOOOOO

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What a great theme!

It's now stuck in my head...

 

[JonnyDBrit]

I know alot of people hate GTA 4, but i think Rockstar did an amazing job with Niko who is by far the best GTA protagonist and the 3rd best Rockstar protagonist (after Arthur and John)

He's really the only prominent Eastern European/Serbian character in gaming and I think they did well with him

would you guys agree?

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He was actually discussed earlier in the thread - where I do rather agree he's a well done character - and it led to an interesting little bit of insight on how the particular nuances of given ethnicities are sometimes lost because, well, we're still at a stage where broad brushstrokes are favoured because... well, representation is still rather lacking even in the broadest detail outside of the usual defaults.