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[DISCUSSION]Are you in favor of pay parity for the WNBA?

Are you in favor of pay parity for the WNBA?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 93 23.1%

  • No.

    Votes: 283 70.4%

  • Not sure.

    Votes: 26 6.5%
  • Total voters
    402
Marano

Marano

Member
Mar 30, 2018
4,893
Rio de Janeiro
This is a discussion I feel needs its own topic.

Recently we have seen wnba players advocating for salary parity with the nba, are you in favor of this?


Factors to consider:


1 - The nba viewership numbers are orders of magnitude higher than the wnba, indicating there is more interest in the nba than the wnba.


2 - As a consequence of 1, tv and streaming deal are a lot higher for the nba than the wnba.


3 - Average attendance is much higher in the nba even with ticket prices being significantly higher in the nba (before covid that is).


4 - NBA merchandise sells a lot more than the wnba counterpart, this includes shoes, jerseys and other products.


5 - As a consequence of 1,2, 3 and 4 the salary cap is much higher in the nba than the wnba.


6 - Superstar players make more money for their team than what they are paid in their contracts even if they are on a supermax, can you imagine how much Steph is making for the warriors all things considered compared to his supermax? Or how much Lebron would make in the open market if there was no max or even a cap?


7 - Nba players make a lot more off sponsorship and ad deals outside of their contract to balance 6 out.


8 - Internationally the NBA is only less popular than football(soccer), while the wnba not as much.


9 - As a consequence of all this the NBA is an insane money making machine as a whole compared to the wnba, the NBA just prints money.


10 - Nba franchises are worth much more than wnba franchises as a result of all this.



There is a lot more that could be said but those 10 points should suffice to initiate a discussion.



What would you do if you had the power to change things? Should the nba subsidize the wnba so it can have salary parity with the nba? What if you couldnt convince sponsors to pay the same as they do for the NBA? Same, what if you cant sell your streaming/TV rights for the same price as you do the NBA? Do you just take the hit? Furthermore what if wnba players cannot convince sponsors to pay them the same sponsors pay the nba players? Same for their ad deals for commercials, likeness for games and other things. It is an uphill battle.



What would you do? I am especially interested in hearing from women here (if there are any reading this), to get their perspective since pay disparaty between genders is common place in many jobs, not just professional basketball athletes, though it is much worse in basketball than in other jobs.
 
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Steven

Steven

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,174
There's a huge disparity between the products. NBA is so much more enticing as entertainment than the WNBA is. I think someone needs to figure out how to make the WNBA more exciting.
 
platocplx

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
Dollar for dollar doesn't make sense vs just the same revenue share as the NBA.
 
Squirrel Killer

Squirrel Killer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,128
Marano said:
This is a discussion I feel needs its own topic.

Recently we have seen wnba players advocating for salary parity with the nba, are you in favor of this?


Factors to consider:


1 - The nba viewership numbers are orders of magnitude higher than the wnba, indicating there is more interest in the nba than the wnba.


2 - As a consequence of 1, tv and streaming deal are a lot higher for the nba than the wnba.


3 - Average attendance is much higher in the nba even with ticket prices being significantly higher in the nba (before covid that is).


4 - NBA merchandise sells a lot more than the wnba counterpart, this includes shoes, jerseys and other products.


5 - As a consequence of 1,2 and 3 the salary cap is much higher in the nba than the wnba.


6 - Superstar players make more money for their team than what they are paid in their contracts even if they are on a supermax, can you imagine how much Steph is making for the warriors all things considered compared to his supermax? Or how much Lebron would make in the open market if there was no max or even a cap?


7 - Nba players make a lot more off sponsorship and ad deals outside of their contract to balance 6 out.


8 - Internationally the NBA is only less popular than football(soccer), while the wnba not as much.


9 - As a consequence of all this the NBA is an insane money making machine as a whole compared to the wnba, the NBA just prints money.


10 - Nba franchises are worth much more than wnba franchises as a result of all this.



There is a lot more that could be said but those 10 points should suffice to initiate a discussion.



What would you do if you had the power to change things? Should the nba subsidize the wnba so it can have salary parity with the nba? What if you couldnt convince sponsors to pay the same as they do for the NBA? Same, what if you cant sell your streaming/TV rights for the same price as you do the NBA? Do you just take the hit? Furthermore what if wnba players cannot convince sponsors to pay them the same sponsors pay the nba players? Same for their ad deals for commercials, likeness for games and other things. It is an uphill battle.



What would you do? I am especially interested in hearing from women here (if there are any reading this), to get their perspective since pay disparaty between genders is common place in many jobs, not just professional basketball athletes, though it is much worse in basketball than in other jobs.
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In case anyone using the light theme wants to read the OP.
 

Deleted member 31333

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,216
No I don't think it makes sense. Pay is based on the viewing audience draw and WBNA just isn't there. It's like asking all movie actors to be paid the same.
 
Trey

Trey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,004
They should get paid more, but parity is a hard sell based on the economical model of sports in general. It's all based on revenue, and the WNBA doesn't make a compelling argument on that front.
 
ShutterMunster

ShutterMunster

Art Manager
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,459
Are any WNBA players arguing for this? I feel like I've heard more about revenue share parity than straight up salary parity. The former makes a lot of sense and there doesn't seem to be a great reason for not doing it.
 
NinjaScooter

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,152
If you mean parity as in the top WNBA players make as much as the top NBA players? That's simply not sustainable. But the revenue split should be something much closer to the NBA's 50/50 share. This is something I believe the players union fought for and got in their last negotiations.
 
krazen

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,146
Gentrified Brooklyn
I think this is a bit different than the US Women's soccer equivalent where they are an important draw to the sport in general and out revenue the men in many ways and absolutely deserve parity.

That said, even though it's not popular the WNBA is important for their brand and they should get a pretty fair compensation scaled to their male counterparts.
 
Jarmel

Jarmel

The Jackrabbit Always Wins
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,333
New York
Revenue share parity makes sense. Dollar for dollar doesn't. Also NBA stars are underpaid.
 

Deleted member 17092

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,360
I think that their players union should negotiate a set up that is similar to the NBA vs revenue, but this isn't really a pay parity argument as they are completely different products as far as revenue streams and thus available income to pay the people who work in that league.

This is kinda like saying nascar truck racing drivers should make as much as an F1 driver because they are both race car drivers and thus they should be paid the same even though nascar truck racing is nowhere near as popular/revenue generating as F1.
 
NexusCell

NexusCell

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
855
I don't think you could financially justify pay parity on par with the NBA. If both leagues were equal in revenue (or even if the WNBA revenue in average was around the lower end of the average NBA revenue, then you could probably justify the market discrepancy, but the financial difference between the two leagues is so massive that its impossible to actually implement reasonably.

It's like comparing the money made by rugby to the nfl.
 
oreomunsta

oreomunsta

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,342
Morally, yes I think WNBA players should have salaries in the ballpark of NBA players

Economically speaking, this would end the WNBA, unless profits from the NBA can be shared with WNBA due to the huge divide in viewership and fandom between the two leagues
 
Kurtikeya

Kurtikeya

One Winged Slayer
Member
Dec 2, 2017
4,446
Maybe I misunderstood what you meant by pay parity, but to be sure, WNBA players aren't asking to be paid the same as NBA players. They're asking to be paid a greater share of their revenue.

As a fan, my heart says yes. My mind doesn't know much about the WNBA's revenue information to elaborate that answer.
 
nullref

nullref

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,052
League revenue share parity (or as much as the WNBA player's association can negotiate for, really) seems fair, though I suppose the NBA's argument would be that they're already subsidizing the league as it is.
 
Pharaun

Pharaun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,052
I believe that they deserve pay parity in the form of the same Basketball Related Income split that the NBA players receive. After doing a quick search it appears that both leagues split revenue 50/50 with the players so that's good. Now the players need to keep pressure on the WNBA to continue to grow the game.

Edit: Looking further it appears the WNBA split only goes into effect for the '21 season and only if the league meets certain growth goals. This needs to change a be a guaranteed 50/50 split.
 
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OP
OP
Marano

Marano

Member
Mar 30, 2018
4,893
Rio de Janeiro
SolidSnakex

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,380
ShutterMunster said:
Are any WNBA players arguing for this? I feel like I've heard more about revenue share parity than straight up salary parity. The former makes a lot of sense and there doesn't seem to be a great reason for not doing it.
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From reading around it seems like there are two camps. The whole conversation kicked off with this image, which was posted by a WNBA player



The other camp is arguing that they don't expect to make the same as NBA players. They simply want the same percentage of shared revenue that NBA players see. NBA players gets 50% shared revenue while WNBA players get 20%.
 
Adrifi

Adrifi

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Jan 5, 2019
3,466
the Spanish Basque Country
Lower demand > Lower pay. It's that easy. Female models make more money than male models in average and it makes sense, there is more demand for female models.
 
DBT85

DBT85

Resident Thread Mechanic
Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,280
When your pay is related to the revenue your company or sport makes, the only way to raise the pay is to raise the amount of money the company or sport makes. If the WNBA players aren't getting the same % of revenues that the NBA players are that's an immediate issue.

I don't think women want to just get paid the same $ value as male players, they just want a fair crack at getting the exposure and growing their sports to allow them to earn that money. Half the population are women so there is clearly a market to be targetted.

In the short terms this can mean male teams subsidizing womens sports to allow them to be full time pro which has only just happened some sports even today. Next use the power of the mens game and mens TV deals to get more womens games in front of eyeballs. Viewing figures will always be lower if there are less opportunities to watch the game, its promo'd less, or if its on at sub prime times. Now, this may not be allowing the game to be grown as naturally as the mens game did in the first place, but considering that the entire industry has been dominated by men for so long, it's no shock that the womens games have been held back. A little bit of help is only fair.

Women in the UK were banned from playing football in all association stadiums for 50 years for...reasons. Womens football was huge in the UK during WW1 and in the years afterwards, but as men came back from war the women were pushed out of the factories and football pitches back into their "rightful place", kitchens and so on. The English FA set the womens game back 50 years for absolutely shite reasons and still has not done nearly enough to make up for it.
 
Precious Tritium

Precious Tritium

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,404
I don't think WNBA players are actually asking to be paid like NBA players, it wouldn't make any sense when their league doesn't bring in enough money to sustain those kinds of contracts.

I assume this is about asking for a larger split of their league's revenue, similar to the NBA has which I think makes sense.

OP should clarify because star players in the NBA are paid more than entire teams in the WNBA (probably multiple teams), I really don't think anyone is asking to go from $75, 000 to $1,000,000+.
 
Betelgeuse

Betelgeuse

Member
Nov 2, 2017
2,941
There seems to be a crucial missing link here - where do you get the money to bring WNBA players into parity with their NBA counterparts?

You note the NBA "prints money" - are you implying there is enough cash just sitting around to make salary parity happen? I am quite sure that is not the case - the revenue is split between ownership and players according to the collective bargaining agreement.

Accordingly, equal pay would appear to require taking a big share of pay away from NBA players. That's not happening. You also address the incredible profitability of NBA superstars, and how much money they make from sources other than their NBA contracts. This, however, ignores the majority of players who do not have these kind of opportunities; for most players their primary income source is their contract by far.

I think WNBA players should be paid more, but it's not going to come from thin air or by taking money out of NBA players' pockets. I suppose that means exploring other opportunities for revenue, and on that front I think the league has been really glacial and outdated in embracing streaming. Perhaps the WNBA might be a good test platform for exploring a streaming deal? Maybe partner with Twitch or something?
 
Squirrel Killer

Squirrel Killer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,128
Pay parity on based on league revenue is complicated because while the NBA's operational costs are probably like 5% of it's revenue, they're closer to 75% of the WNBA's revenue (both figures pulled out of my ass.)
 
Jer

Jer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,197
SolidSnakex said:
From reading around it seems like there are two camps. The whole conversation kicked off with this image, which was posted by a WNBA player



The other camp is arguing that they don't expect to make the same as NBA players. They simply want the same percentage of shared revenue that NBA players see. NBA players gets 50% shared revenue while WNBA players get 20%.
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Yeah, that really doesn't work though, because the WNBA operates at a loss. Sharing gross revenue is what you do when you make a profit. The WNBA's entire gross revenue - and more - is consumed just covering operating expenses.

Increasing pay is a good goal, but there's no actual business case for it. Normal companies that are losing money don't then go and pay everyone more.
 
Kewlmyc

Kewlmyc

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
26,706
I get why they want the same pay. They do the same job. However, the NBA brings in way more money, so from a business standpoint, paying them the same when they aren't bringing in the same amount of revenue doesn't make sense.

That twitter image is depressing as fuck though. Wish the WNBA was more profitable.
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,187
If the league had to pay WNBA players the same as NBA players, it would fold instantly, I don't see any way that it wouldn't. Percentage of the pie, sure.
 
WascallyWabbit

WascallyWabbit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,421
I support whatever efforts they have to use their leverage to get as much of the pie they want, if it ends up being more of it then the nba guys then great

That said, the league doesn't turn a profit so i don't even think it's feasible for them to even get 50% and stay afloat
 
Kewlmyc

Kewlmyc

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
26,706
Einchy said:
Even then it's not really the same.

WNBA plays 36 games per season while the NBA plays 82.
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Huh, shows how much I pay attention to the WNBA. I'm part of the problem I guess.

They should at least get 50% revenue like the NBA does, unless the WNBA is that much of a money sink, that they can't afford even that.
 
scottbeowulf

scottbeowulf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,374
United States
This is very different than something like scientist or sales manager. Professional sports pay is based on much more than regular jobs. So while I'm sure they should be paid more in the WNBA, there's no way they should be paid the same. It's just different.
 
Kintaro

Kintaro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,331
Jer said:
Yeah, that really doesn't work though, because the WNBA operates at a loss. Sharing gross revenue is what you do when you make a profit. The WNBA's entire gross revenue - and more - is consumed just covering operating expenses.

Increasing pay is a good goal, but there's no actual business case for it. Normal companies that are losing money don't then go and pay everyone more.
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This is pretty much the answer. The WNBA is struggling to survive and people want to give players a bigger piece of the pie? First they have no leverage and second that will only speed up the league's demise.
 
Squirrel Killer

Squirrel Killer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,128
Kewlmyc said:
They should at least get 50% revenue like the NBA does, unless the WNBA is that much of a money sink, that they can't afford even that.
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That's precisely why this is a discussion topic. Although the WNBA's finances aren't public, the general consensus from people who should have a good sense of them is that the WNBA can't afford that, but since the optics would be bad for it to fail, the NBA heavily subsidizes the WNBA. The NWHL is in a similar predicament. As was the WPLL before it folded earlier this year.
 
Jeremy

Jeremy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,639
Are the NBA and WNBA different parts of the same organization? It seems like that's an important factor.

If they're separate entities, it would be hard to justify parity. If they are the same entity, it would be hard not to.
 
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