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Discussing accessibility in Demon's Souls
- Thread starter Jimnymebob
- Start date
I realise this won't in any way convince you, but it's because knowing those options exist and being able to turn them on psychologically impacts how everyone plays the game. Including me.
OP
OP
Like I've stated multiple times, it'd be disabled when playing online like it always is.
To be fair, this is more a feature I'd like to see in general, mainly for if you want to jump out of the game, especially since you can't pause these games, but don't want to lose progress or wait for the whole thing to switch back on etc., because for example, if I shut my PS4 down while I'm in game on Dark Souls and then power it back up, I'm waiting like 5 minutes or so for the console to boot back up, the game to load, all the developer logos to go off, the game to connect online, then my save to load. Just hold options/the menu button to quit game, rather than going through menus, especially when you get games that make legitimately quitting them awkward. LIke, to quit some KH games you either need to find a save point and quit from there, do the all shoulder buttons plus start or whatever combination, or reset the console/quit application, and there was something I played on PC, an Assassin's Creed I think, where I had to basically quit the game 3 times before I could actually quit to desktop.
I've not played Dark Souls on Switch, but I assume putting your console to sleep and waking it up again while playing online will kick you to the title screen, but with an error message? That's basically all I'm suggesting, but a legitimate version of that which exits correctly.
I admit that I'm thinking more in terms of an online game here, just due to the fact you can't really leave them unless you quit out, as they're still live at all times, even if it's just AI in Demon's Souls case. Like, if I'm playing OW and there's a knock on the door, a phone call, a pet needs something etc, i'm just gonna quit out of the match, deal with it, and carry on, rather than shut the whole application or console down, and this being a simple shortcut, no matter how simple bringing up the menu, scrolling across to quit, and pressing confirm is, would benefit many titles and players.
I've repeatedly pointed out that I'm NOT good at action games. Demon's Souls' difficulty is just massively overblown.
Like I said. Control schemes and the like are accessibility changes. You're making the game accessible to a wider audience by allowing people physically incapable of playing it to do so. That all makes logical sense.
"Make it so when you die you respawn right outside of the boss gate" or "have every enemy attack have a big flash so you know when to dodge" are STRUCTURAL changes that fundamentally alter the game's core design and flow for the sake of making the game less scary for people who don't want to engage with it.
Um
"hi can I have milk and cookies?"
Begins pouring milk
"Actually, I don't want milk, can you use Pepsi"
Pours Pepsi and about to toss in cookies..
"Actually, I don't want cookies...can you put crackers.."
The having colour blind and remapping controls as the only necessary adaptions seems to me to be a these are the Disabled people that are REALLY disabled and these are the Disabled people that aren't, type ableist binarism that is really shit. Good Disabled people v bad Disabled people is really tiring and just inaccurate.
I am autistic and dysgraphic and have poor reaction times and fine motor skills. that does not mean my Disabilities are less valid because they are not obvious enough to non-disabled people and ableist Disabled people.
I am autistic and dysgraphic and have poor reaction times and fine motor skills. that does not mean my Disabilities are less valid because they are not obvious enough to non-disabled people and ableist Disabled people.
As I said in another threat, I modded my game save to give my character some stat boosts to be at the challenge level I was most comfortable with. It did not in any way detract from my enjoy of the game and it's become my preferred method of playing it.
That said, a legit pause option is a godsend for me as a new parent for any game. Anybody with young kids knows the moment you take your eyes off them, they try and shove something into their mouths that should be in there. The pause button is probably my most pushed button at this age...
That said, a legit pause option is a godsend for me as a new parent for any game. Anybody with young kids knows the moment you take your eyes off them, they try and shove something into their mouths that should be in there. The pause button is probably my most pushed button at this age...
At least with Bloodborne on PS4, resuming from suspend will bring you right back to where you were. The online is P2P not server based, so if you're not playing co-op or being invaded you're not really playing online. The ghosts / messages auto-populate as you roam in any case.
Also:
100% this. I have a coordination disorder, so I'm shameless about farming up my character and summoning co-op help. I've completed DeS and DS. It took a lot of time, but I enjoyed it. Normally I have a love/hate relationship with character action games, because some of them use really cheap random patterns which require a lot of mechanical dexterity to respond to in real time. That's impossible for me. Souls games are distinct in that if you can learn a beat and tap your finger in time to it, you can do the fights. It's just about memorisation and staying calm.
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So there shouldn't be accessibility options in the game, that are completely optional for people who are able bodied, because able bodied people might turn them on?
You're right that this line of thinking isn't going to convince me because it is a shit reason to prevent the options from being added.
I'm pretty much going to say the same thing above, and once again state that accessibility options don't make the game easier, it makes the game accessible.
Last thing, developers aren't making these accessibility options available to make the game less scary because people don't want to engage with it. They are making these accessibility options available so a group of fucking people can actually access the game.
What's odd is that people keep saying over and over again go play something else. Which is fine because yes a lot of other games do have these options for people. But what a weird mentality. If every other developer just said "not worth the trouble for these people and that's not my vision" those options wouldn't exist.
And again they are or would be just that...options. Imagine if libraries didn't have accessibility options like the old days and people were just saying "that's not the library's vision, go to a different library that has a ramp, your ramp detracts from my library."
If people want to say it's different because it's a game or something that's fine but the mentality is the same. Sure developers can be more than happy to stick to an artistic decision to not have options but the idea of constantly defending them over it, telling people to fuck off and do something else, or that someone else's option is going to ruin their game I just simply don't get.
You seem to be collating accessibility features with gameplay changes to make the game more, for lack of a better word, casual. I don't think it's a good faith argument to lump in features that would aid disabled people to be able to play the game at all versus features that would let completely able bodied people who don't want to engage with the fundamental game design out of frustration/patience. If you want to have a conversation about the latter, that's perfectly fair, but it feels like you're using the former as a trojan horse for the latter.
You just completely ignored the point I was trying to make. Did you not see me agree with the idea of adding accessibility options to the game? I agree - controller remaps, colorblind options, etc - all of that is GOOD and there's no reason not to add it if you have the budget and flexibility to do so.
But again, I draw the line at altering the core design and flow of the game because at that point you're asking for a different fucking game.
This is what bothers me, Demon's is already accessible, it's the easiest game in the Miyazaki's Soulsborne series. It was a hard game because it was the first of it's kind.
Magic in Demon's Souls is over powered and the Royalty starting class starts with Soul Arrow and the Fragrant Ring which regenerate MP overtime. And you have a Blessed Weapon, Adjudicator Shield and the Regen ring which regenerates 18 health per second.
The level design are linear corridor with set pieces to help guide you to your next destination.
Enemies' locations are fixed, they stay in place until you aggro them
Enemies already have a long wind up animation before they attack.
Soulsborne already give tons of options to make the game easier. It's up to you to take advantage of it, the game is not going to play for you. It's like complaining about Mario running too slow and the timer keeps running out, the B button allows Mario to run faster so you don't die before the timer runs out.
Magic in Demon's Souls is over powered and the Royalty starting class starts with Soul Arrow and the Fragrant Ring which regenerate MP overtime. And you have a Blessed Weapon, Adjudicator Shield and the Regen ring which regenerates 18 health per second.
The level design are linear corridor with set pieces to help guide you to your next destination.
Enemies' locations are fixed, they stay in place until you aggro them
Enemies already have a long wind up animation before they attack.
Soulsborne already give tons of options to make the game easier. It's up to you to take advantage of it, the game is not going to play for you. It's like complaining about Mario running too slow and the timer keeps running out, the B button allows Mario to run faster so you don't die before the timer runs out.
Stuff that I believe could work:
Fully remappable controls
A high contrast mode like the one included in TLOU2
Adjustable hud and subtitle size
Maybe text to speech for item descriptions? These games have a lot of text
The gameplay itself I'm not sure what can be changed, as these are not mechanically complex games at all.
Fully remappable controls
A high contrast mode like the one included in TLOU2
Adjustable hud and subtitle size
Maybe text to speech for item descriptions? These games have a lot of text
The gameplay itself I'm not sure what can be changed, as these are not mechanically complex games at all.
My bad I guess I forgot that part when reading through. Starting at a boss door if in a boss fight would still lead to scumming fights as a redo.
I just don't really see a point when there is a system level option for this very problem. I think developer resources could be spent else where.
I don't think you're looking to be convinced to begin with, let's be honest.
nope, people basically want this
not happening
and instead of demanding such nonsense they could use their energy to actually learn the game and beat something they thought they wouldn´t be able to. these games aren´t rocket science. take your time, die, learn, repeat and you will succeed
It's actually so easy its unbelievable. You create the exact game you want then you call that standard mode.
Then you add lots of options, if one change is made it's now called custom mode. Even make it so custom mode gets no trophies or achievements.
Yeah come on disabled people. You can't be THAT disabled, right. The game's ALREADY accessible. You're just too stupid to notice. Instead of coping with a disability every day of your life you should just be smart and beat the game instead. That's all it takes, you know.
I just can't with some of these replies.
I just can't with some of these replies.
OP
OP
I'm just trying to cover as much accessibility as possible in the OP. I'm not picking things to make the game easier for people who are basically too lazy to learn the game and just want an easy way out, but obviously the two will meet in some aspects.
The levels are so linear for the most part that this isn't really such a major problem. it's more of a way to orientate yourself than going "oh I need to walk forward across the straight line that makes up 1-2, I'm glad I cheated with my trusty minimap"
On stuff like BB with the woods etc, which are purposefully labyrinthian, sure, a map would ruin it, but Demon's Souls is mostly linear layout wise, save for a few levels. Learning how to deal with the enemy encounters is trial and error, but the actual act of navigation, outside of environmental hazards, isn't.
Agreed. Accessibility options are great. But when it gets to a level of changing straight up how the game is played like adding maps and how enemies attack and stuff it's like... that's the game...
for enemy attacks it's usually visually obvious via animation when it's a special grab or something but if it relies more on an audio cue they could always add a sekiro style text effect.
I'm a little confused then. Why would it need a map?
You wanna know a great way to make people agree with your stance on a thing? Repeatedly insult them, generalize them, and throw ad-hominem attacks at them.
Especially when a lot of them agree with part of what you want but disagree on the specifics or the methods at which you want to achieve it.
I have had my experiences over the years with Souls fans. The amount of times i was told to "git gud or fuck off" or was called names because i dared saying that i use maps for Souls games, etc... leaves me with no other conclusion.
OP
OP
lmfao it only took 3 pages.nope, people basically want this
not happening
and instead of demanding such nonsense they could use their energy to actually learn the game and beat something they thought they wouldn´t be able to. these games aren´t rocket science. take your time, die, learn, repeat and you will succeed
My OP was in response to all the people in the last thread going, "people only want accessibility options to make it easy mode", and that isn't the point of this. I just wanted to discuss how making it accessible doesn't just involve enabling god mode, noclip, but instead consider the fact that there are people who genuinely want to experience the game as close as possible to how it was intended to be, but need some assist features to allow that.
Like I said, primarily for orientation. it could just be a RTS style overlay map that you can toggle on and off, and which fills in as you progress. I'm not suggesting a map showing enemy locations, item locations, fast travel points etc. Solely something that players can glance at, go "oh, I've already been here", then turn round and carry on.
Every fandom has its toxic assholes. Doesn't matter if it's Souls, Steven Universe, Persona, Avatar or Kingdom Hearts.
That doesn't mean the whole fandom is made of those assholes.
same analogue with any other "fandom" though flashback to five or so years ago yeah git good or git fucked was the general tagline
to be clear people being mean to you online for using guides (this forum? Gamefaqs?) makes souls fans a cult?
I mean shouldn't the row of ragdolling corpses and lack of loot usually be a decent indication you've been there before?
I completely forgot about Shattered Memories existed lol. But still those things/effects are doable with better way. If people are complaining about those been change rather than stucking with old ones and improved.
That is certainly true but i feel like Souls in particular is a special case. You mentioned Persona, iirc you are one of the people who are done with teenage protagonists/parties and want a more adult cast. (Correct me if i'm wrong) When you proposed that change did Persona fans aggressively told you to "deal with it or fuck off" or to "please respect the creative intent and vision of the great Katsura Hashino"!? I just feel like these sentiments are a lot more prevalent in the Souls fandom. But anyway i don't want to derail fruther and apologise for my generalizing remark.
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I have most definitely been told that Persona "isn't for me" and to "play another franchise instead" when I try to pitch a college-era or adult-era Persona sequel as a means of changing up the formula in a meaningful way. Most of the time it seems to be people resigned to the fact that Atlus is Atlus and they don't care even a little bit what Americans think, but I've absolutely had people come at me aggressively about it too.
I think we all experience selection bias in our interactions with fandoms - oftentimes the examples we remember the most are the most extreme ones, rather than the positive or neutral ones.
Like I've said before, I am more than happy to take some time to guide anyone who's afraid Demon's Souls might be too hard for them through the first couple of hours and help ease them into the game. I'd be happy to jump on a livestream or SharePlay and talk them through the process or even be Navi for them pointing out design elements that help inform and teach players how Demon's Souls functions. If anyone wants to do this they can PM me and we can set something up.
Nobody is naturally talented at these games but with a little bit of persistence and a little bit of creative thinking, almost anyone can beat them. We're not talking about Sekiro here, after all. There's so many ways you can excel at Souls.
Full customizable controls - you're barking the wrong tree. It should really be a system-wide feature, considering that it's a whole UI designed for doing that and it's literally the same across every game
Providing a map in a souls game isn't accessibility, honestly.
"More evident attack tells".. i don't know. A big point of Souls is actually limiting gamey features during combat.
Providing a map in a souls game isn't accessibility, honestly.
"More evident attack tells".. i don't know. A big point of Souls is actually limiting gamey features during combat.
No naughty dog game has ever been about difficulty, and hasn't been gameplay-first since Jak 3.
while i have no problem with accessibility options, i'd prefer that games conceived & created without them be allowed to remain that way...
Sounds great, doesn't work. Since most games vary at least a little bit in their implementation of common buttons, you have swap layouts for each game, and sometimes it can take a bit of playing with a game to figure out what the right layout ought to be. Additionally, many buttons are context sensitive. The OS is not going to be aware of a context when you rearrange inputs. If you've moved attack from being on RB/RT to X/Y, you might find that now you have to drive a car by pressing |Y| to accelerate.
Not to mention that now all of the graphics and text prompts in the game will be incorrect. "Press and hold |RT| to accelerate" the game says, unaware that for you need to press and hold |Y| instead. This could be solved by the OS telling the application which button the player needs to hold instead, but at that point you're already asking the application designer to do most of the leg work for customizing controls. And if you're asking them to do most of it, why not ask them to do all of it, so they can have a solution customized to their application's needs?
You could do both. Have system-level changes that you want to be the default in every game, but then also have every game be able to start from this base and make all of its own adjustments.
Yeah you are failing to see and it seems you just dont care. Even OP acknowledges that some of the things he's asking for arent pure accessibility options. In addition I make the distinction between accessibility and difficulty in my post.
There has to be nuance in the conversation because the lines between accessibility and difficulty arent the same in every case. I dont have a problem seeing the difference so I will call out folks who want to attack the developer's vision under the guise of accessibility.
More accessibility options should not only be something we want, it should be something we demand. And while I can't speak to the general accessibility options that should become standard nor options that would be more specific to Demon's Souls by Bluepoint, I will say anything that is against more accessibility options is a shithead. I'm going to be naive and say nobody in this thread will be against them...
OP can you elaborate more about "one button to quite the game"? And why it's important?
I tend to not involved in the "accessibility" discussion, because you know many dosen't know what it is, let alone many dosen't know what the different between "Difficulty" and "Challenging", and tend to mix them together.
So I don't think anyone is against options for all color blind disabilities types, people hearing issues, full control revamp, subtitles, size, etc.
Actually they're more encouraging in Souls games and other games. And reading people making up comments talking about "how some people are against those options" is just straight disgraced.
But back to your quote, and start by asking you did you play Souls games? (Not just tried them and dropped them)
Let's just take OP option about "invisible walls to prevent from falling off unless by any action expect walking" (which OP straight said this should be default). Walking off a ledge in Souls games is a travesl mechanic, areas designed around this, some of stages in souls are accessible by leaping off ledge, and secrets as well. Where most of them you required to "walk" to leap off the ledge and land on the specific location (which in OP suggestion Walking doesn't let you leap), where rolling and running means death.
I tend to not involved in the "accessibility" discussion, because you know many dosen't know what it is, let alone many dosen't know what the different between "Difficulty" and "Challenging", and tend to mix them together.
So I don't think anyone is against options for all color blind disabilities types, people hearing issues, full control revamp, subtitles, size, etc.
Actually they're more encouraging in Souls games and other games. And reading people making up comments talking about "how some people are against those options" is just straight disgraced.
But back to your quote, and start by asking you did you play Souls games? (Not just tried them and dropped them)
Let's just take OP option about "invisible walls to prevent from falling off unless by any action expect walking" (which OP straight said this should be default). Walking off a ledge in Souls games is a travesl mechanic, areas designed around this, some of stages in souls are accessible by leaping off ledge, and secrets as well. Where most of them you required to "walk" to leap off the ledge and land on the specific location (which in OP suggestion Walking doesn't let you leap), where rolling and running means death.
Accessibility and the difficulty in a game is not the same thing. While accessibility may provide the PLAYER to have an easier time, it will not affect the behaviour of the game. Giving more power to players to tell certain cues in advance can make the game more accessible to more people.
The "more people" I mention, is not a benign group with condition X or Y. it does not necessarily pertain to people with limited mobility or hearing for example.
If you had the determination and grit to play through the souls game, having suddenly accessibility options appearing for a larger audience is not something you should be hindered by. Unless you weren't that "gud" enough yourself that the mere idea of such options existing ruins your experience.
What those options are exactly and how they should be implemented, I don't have any specific ideas or the required knowledge. But seeing the options in TLOU2 it seems there is a lot that other developers can do and are able to do depending on the resources they have as it may require focus testing or consultants.
A specific example is the sekiro fps mod, which is only available on PC of course but has the many options to make the game more accessible.
The "more people" I mention, is not a benign group with condition X or Y. it does not necessarily pertain to people with limited mobility or hearing for example.
If you had the determination and grit to play through the souls game, having suddenly accessibility options appearing for a larger audience is not something you should be hindered by. Unless you weren't that "gud" enough yourself that the mere idea of such options existing ruins your experience.
What those options are exactly and how they should be implemented, I don't have any specific ideas or the required knowledge. But seeing the options in TLOU2 it seems there is a lot that other developers can do and are able to do depending on the resources they have as it may require focus testing or consultants.
A specific example is the sekiro fps mod, which is only available on PC of course but has the many options to make the game more accessible.
I'm talking about layer features.
That is, the system exposes to the game\engine, instead of X, Button1
Button1 has a name and an icon.
The game doesn't need to know what it is, because anyway most multiplats and all major engines generate the prompts dynamically to display the appropriate XB1 \ PS4 \ KBM button prompts
This is largely how it already works in pretty much all games. Nobody hardwires descriptions, so all that's lacking is os-level support on consoles
The idea is that you only realize how linear they are after exploring them, the sheer act of showing the player a map ruins the whole point, getting lost in Latria and the Mines area before Flamelukers or having no idea where I was going or where I was in the Valley of Defilement are some of the most memorable things in that game not to mention the sheer terror of not knowing if you are right next to the boss area or barely half way there.
Even if it was just about adding an easy mode, or adding a map or shit, why do you guys care so fucking much about it?
Most games that let you make things easier, also lock you out of getting all the cheevos so you still get to flaunt your big boy ding dongs while the scrubs don't get their platinum trophy.
What's the worst that could happen? Someone starts out with help, learns at their pace, and tries again in standard mode as the game was intended? Oh noooooooooooooooooo dark souls is ruined forever!
Y'all are the only fan base that actively fights against the idea of more people getting to experience the game you love so much.
Most games that let you make things easier, also lock you out of getting all the cheevos so you still get to flaunt your big boy ding dongs while the scrubs don't get their platinum trophy.
What's the worst that could happen? Someone starts out with help, learns at their pace, and tries again in standard mode as the game was intended? Oh noooooooooooooooooo dark souls is ruined forever!
Y'all are the only fan base that actively fights against the idea of more people getting to experience the game you love so much.