A cut clip from the movie:
97% on RT | 81 on MC
Now on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81284247
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'Disclosure: Trans Lives on Screen' now on Netflix | "Having cis men play trans women [in film] is a direct link to the violence against trans women"
- Thread starter RastaMentality
- Start date
A cut clip from the movie:
97% on RT | 81 on MC
Now on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81284247
It's interesting, for some reason I was reading up about Doctor Who audio dramas and for what amounts to a radio play where you'd never see the character, they still cast a trans actor to play a trans role. So there are people who are willing to make that effort.
User Banned (6 Months): Transphobia. Previous ban related to justifying bigotry.
I don't know about this. The whole point of being a good actor is to do a believable portrayal. The idea is to play something you are not. I get the "x is taking a role that could have been played by a minority" argument but there is more to it than that. Having someone well-known (regardless of sexuality) playing a gay or trans role brings the title more publicity and more attention is brought to LGTB issues.
I'm not saying all LGTB characters therefore should be played by the most well-known actors but just that there is some value "for the cause" when it happens. It's not per default a negative. Brokeback Mountain would not have had the impact (or wide release) it had if the actors hadn't been as well-known. All actors should be allowed to play all roles. That's what acting is about.
I'm not saying all LGTB characters therefore should be played by the most well-known actors but just that there is some value "for the cause" when it happens. It's not per default a negative. Brokeback Mountain would not have had the impact (or wide release) it had if the actors hadn't been as well-known. All actors should be allowed to play all roles. That's what acting is about.
Fuck that. Having cis actors play trans people literally reinforces the belief that we are not really our gender and are just play acting, which also reinforces and contributes to violence against us.
This isn't just about representation so miss me with that bullshit, especially if your cis and it has no affect on you.
I really don't know where to start:
- The defense of something that's one step removed from blackface* (supression of opportunities for minority actors, misrepresentation, and caricature).
- The implication that trans actors can't act.
- The circular "trans actors aren't well known so they shouldn't be cast in major roles" argument (how the hell can they become well known if they're never cast in major roles?).
- Bonus: the scare quotes around "for the cause".
Every argument you've made above was made at some point in the past (and even present!) about blackface*, so perhaps take a step back and reflect on that.
*I'm talking about the subtler, but more insidious, forms of blackface like Short Circuit's "indian" scientist; not necessarily literal minstrel shows.
Preach. <3
*LGBT
And fuck that shit. You can't fucking compare some cishettie playing a gay character to one playing a trans character. ESPECIALLY not a cis man playing a trans woman or cis woman playing a trans man. It would never be okay, but especially not when there's still SO MANY people out there saying shit like "trans women are just men in dresses". Fuck that shit, this is why so many trans people get harmed, killed or kill themselves. Because for many cis people they're just men/women dressing as the other gender. Thinking it's okay for cis people to play trans characters reinforces that shit & just sounds like "look in the end they're still just a man/woman :)".
General statement not directed at anyone, but shut the fuck up if you're cishet & all you have to add regarding LGBT issues is some ignorant "actually this is okay & I don't see the issue" bullshit. Listen to LGBT people. Hell, if you don't want to listen to us, listen to your fucking fellow cishets when they explain to you how your thinking is wrong and harmful. You don't have to fucking add your five cents to everything, especially if it's something you don't know shit about.
Weltall Zero & Matthew77 put it really well too.
I've been watching Pose recently, and it's truly one of the best shows I've watched. And what I love best about it is that it's been such a great opportunity for so many black and brown trans women and LGBTQ+ folks. The idea that a cis person could best tell the story of a trans person is a heinous lie.
This quote from an article about Pose, and more broadly this very topic, is on point:
www.theatlantic.com
I'll need to check out this documentary.
This quote from an article about Pose, and more broadly this very topic, is on point:
When Are Trans Actors Allowed to Act?
The FX drama "Pose" is the rare example of a show that actually gives trans actors top billing—an effort made all the more urgent by a recent controversy that saw Scarlett Johansson cast as a transgender man.
www.theatlantic.com
I'll need to check out this documentary.
I'll try to find time to watch this on Netflix. The video in the OP was something I had not considered. I have one question related to it.
Where does cis-women portraying trans-women, or vice-versa, fall in regards to acceptability? Obviously trans people playing trans people will always be vastly preferable.
It seems to me, that by having a cis-person portray a trans person of the other gender, it's implied that trans people are more like their birth assigned gender than the one they actually identify with. A cis-women portraying a trans-woman doesn't seem to have this problem, or what's mentioned in the OP. I recognise that there are still the issues of trans-representation, and cis-people not having the experiences of trans-people, but is it more acceptable than what the thread addresses, and are there other problems with it that I've not considered?
Where does cis-women portraying trans-women, or vice-versa, fall in regards to acceptability? Obviously trans people playing trans people will always be vastly preferable.
It seems to me, that by having a cis-person portray a trans person of the other gender, it's implied that trans people are more like their birth assigned gender than the one they actually identify with. A cis-women portraying a trans-woman doesn't seem to have this problem, or what's mentioned in the OP. I recognise that there are still the issues of trans-representation, and cis-people not having the experiences of trans-people, but is it more acceptable than what the thread addresses, and are there other problems with it that I've not considered?
I watched it with my wife. It was really eye opening and changed the feeling and tone of many movies for us. Trans issues and their history are still widely ignored and unknown, so it's really good to see something like this that helps explain what life is like for them to a wider audience.
The specific issue of cis men playing trans women is something I honestly never considered the violent ramifications of, but once posited makes a tremendous amount of sense.
All the men vomiting jokes from movies, too, holy hell I can't believe I never saw those for how hurtful they were when I was younger.
The specific issue of cis men playing trans women is something I honestly never considered the violent ramifications of, but once posited makes a tremendous amount of sense.
All the men vomiting jokes from movies, too, holy hell I can't believe I never saw those for how hurtful they were when I was younger.
While I would rather a trans actor play the role of that's not available the actor should be the same gender as the trans person as in a woman should be playing a trans woman (such as the Leto example if only cis actors were available a woman should have had the role not a man) and men should play trans-men, and again that's not preferable but it's much better than a cis person of the opposite gender getting the role.
One of the big issues is that... trans people simply aren't getting opportunities. While cis women are fighting for equal pay, many trans people simply would be happy to be paid at all, because they're not getting any opportunities in the first place. That's part of what makes shows like Pose so wonderful. Maybe there will be a time where trans people get just as many opportunities as cis people, but we don't live in that world, and I'm not sure we will honestly.
The vomiting scenes in movies was hard to watch. I also never knew the story behind boys dont cry which now makes me look at it with much more disdain. Even if the sustem were equal trans people being played by cis people should never happen anymore. Cis men do not get to play female roles and there should be no difference with a trans role becaus it turns trans people into just a performance.
Going to have to check this out after work. It kind of mimmicks some of the same conversations in the minority voice actor threads from the other day. It's not a great look when your only representation in media is effectively closing the door of opportunity.
I feel like I'm normally an "actors can play any parts" type of person, but even thinking just a minute on this case, it's not common for cis men to play cis women or vice versa. The few times it happens, a big deal is made of it. So if it's always this big deal and so uncommon, why should this case be so incredibly common by comparison?
I'm probably wording that poorly, but I hope my point comes across.
I'm probably wording that poorly, but I hope my point comes across.
this documentary is legit incredible. seriously. it's really in-depth with trans representation and virtually every type of transphobia present in film and tv the last billion years. ace ventura can go fuck off. and fucking long live pose.
I haven't given much thought to this topic because I'm not sure I've seen many movies where actual Transgender people exist. I'll watch this Netflix story once my daughter and wife wake up but can anyone point out some movies or shows with people pretending to be Trans? It seems like such an awful decision to make when you consider how much thought has to go into not casting a genuine trans person into the role.
A big recent one was Scarlett Johansson being hired to play a trans man, which she eventually turned down after receiving a ton of criticism. But there is another example in the clip in the OP.
There have even been cases where a trans actress said trans actors are turned down despite being trans because they don't look "trans enough". Which really reveals the awful thought process that a lot of cis people have when casting for trans roles.
Some of you go out your way to miss the point when you go for the meritocracy argument.
This is really fucking simple.
There is 0 explanation or reason to justify or equivocate why minorities shouldn't be able TO PLAY THEMSELVES in productions. ESPECIALLY when they are horribly undercasted and get less opportunities for roles to begin with
You sound fucking stupid as fuck trying to argue against that in any capacity
This is really fucking simple.
There is 0 explanation or reason to justify or equivocate why minorities shouldn't be able TO PLAY THEMSELVES in productions. ESPECIALLY when they are horribly undercasted and get less opportunities for roles to begin with
You sound fucking stupid as fuck trying to argue against that in any capacity
This is very similar to the argument over VA work of black characters going to white actors. At the end of the day, you have to ask "Is there a lack of [minority] actors getting roles in this medium?" The answer for both Black VAs and trans actors/actresses is a resounding yes. It's not good enough to say "well, it's acting, what does it matter?".
OP
OP
I'd say this is a more dire, pressing issue than that. The general black public wasn't really concerned about VA work but this trans people have been talking about this forever.
Yeah, especially as in the cases lined out in the OP, there's the issue of misgendering and perpetuating harmful stereotypes. It affects how trans people are seen and treated in real life.
I've always wondered if "well meaning" movies like Philadelphia or The Danish Girl do more harm then good to the broader culture with their casting, or if the cynical Hollywood casting ultimately does get audiences to reevaluate their views on important social issues.
I know that my mother, being a huge Tom Hanks fan, found Philadelphia and its subject matter really eye-opening in 1993. I'm open to the idea that that film, despite it casting a famous straight actor as a gay man battling AIDS, might have done more good than harm to society overall.
Cis actors being cast as trans characters is different, clearly. The video in the OP clearly explains how Eddie Redmayne being cast in The Danish Girl reinforces bigotry in violent bigots. I guess I'm left with the question of if that movie had any positive impact on the culture when it released or if the negatives completely outweigh it and if it was better off not being made than being made with Redmayne.
I know that my mother, being a huge Tom Hanks fan, found Philadelphia and its subject matter really eye-opening in 1993. I'm open to the idea that that film, despite it casting a famous straight actor as a gay man battling AIDS, might have done more good than harm to society overall.
Cis actors being cast as trans characters is different, clearly. The video in the OP clearly explains how Eddie Redmayne being cast in The Danish Girl reinforces bigotry in violent bigots. I guess I'm left with the question of if that movie had any positive impact on the culture when it released or if the negatives completely outweigh it and if it was better off not being made than being made with Redmayne.
I hadn't heard of this documentary until now, thank you. I will make time to watch it tonight. I'll send it to a few friends to whom, I hope, will become more understanding about trans issues.
I think the Apu comparison is a bit closer and certainly less dire. While Apu alone isn't nefarious, he was the face of Indian-American pop culture representation for years, which is problematic.
Wow yeah, that makes a ton of sense. Cis actors player Trans characters is extremely shitty. I had never really given thought to the fight extending into the space, but yeah, obviously it would.
Very good documentary, but a bit of a difficult watch at times. As a cis woman I found some of it really stressful and upsetting, so I imagine it might be especially difficult for trans folk. It's definitely worth the watch, but I want to make sure people go in prepared.
On the same day last week that a black voice actress (Anairis Quinones) had people saying she "didn't sound black enough" to voice a black character a trans woman (Kdin Jenzen) had people saying she "didn't sound trans enough" to voice a trans woman.
Bigots all share the same brain cell.
On the same day last week that a black voice actress (Anairis Quinones) had people saying she "didn't sound black enough" to voice a black character a trans woman (Kdin Jenzen) had people saying she "didn't sound trans enough" to voice a trans woman.
Bigots all share the same brain cell.
Just finished watching with my wife. I really appreciated learning about the history of trans representation in media, and I'll echo some posters who've said that some parts were pretty hard to watch. I'm gonna recommend it to several people I think will benefit from watching it, especially a friend who recently showed his 8-year-old son Ace Ventura (he had forgotten the trans panic aspect of it and felt pretty guilty and awkward for exposing his kid to that).
A thought that kept occuring to me while watching (I think this is a good place to point out that I'm cis), and I'm curious what some of you think about this, is that basically all of the interviewees pass extremely well. I'm struggling with whether that's a good or "bad" thing, given that a lot of trans people whose work I follow don't necessarily have the "privilege" (I guess?) of passing as well as the interviewees, mainly due to a) not having been able to transition young enough to avoid puberty and b) not having access to the same kinds of resources.
I'm thinking we maybe could have done with seeing people represented who can't pass as easily, just to impress upon the audience that these people exist and are just as valid?
Also, I really wanna watch Pose now!
A thought that kept occuring to me while watching (I think this is a good place to point out that I'm cis), and I'm curious what some of you think about this, is that basically all of the interviewees pass extremely well. I'm struggling with whether that's a good or "bad" thing, given that a lot of trans people whose work I follow don't necessarily have the "privilege" (I guess?) of passing as well as the interviewees, mainly due to a) not having been able to transition young enough to avoid puberty and b) not having access to the same kinds of resources.
I'm thinking we maybe could have done with seeing people represented who can't pass as easily, just to impress upon the audience that these people exist and are just as valid?
Also, I really wanna watch Pose now!
Honestly, there should be zero tolerance for cis actors and actresses performing as trans characters. This is really bad.
Adding this to my watch list.
Adding this to my watch list.
It is a really great documentary but often times difficult to watch as a trans woman. It is hard to cope with all the negative representation in the media that still persists today. The 80% of people not knowing a trans person is very telling, in that people's first exposure to trans people is a joke or as a serial killer.
There is definitely appears to be some truth to the concept that trans people who pass are going to be more successful in hollywood, unfortunately.
There is definitely appears to be some truth to the concept that trans people who pass are going to be more successful in hollywood, unfortunately.
The English acting "industry" basically had this view a few hundred years ago. Why have female actors when you can have male actors that can perform, and even specialize as, female characters?
It sound ridiculous now doesn't it? But people just accepted that as normal until society slowly changed. It's the same with <blank>-face, and it will be the same with trans characters.
Yeah, the passing of the interviewees is something that has me wondering. I figure that in a doc about better representation it would've been nice to involve some trans folks who maybe don't pass as well as the participants do.
This was pretty good. I'd highly recommend it. Watched it tonight with some friends via Netflix Party. Some films I was aware of that had trans representation (either good or bad), some films I wasn't aware of at all, so it was an informational documentary for me personally. If anyone has other recommendations of transgender documentaries, please let me know!
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Eugh, yeah that sounds the right amount of shallow for hollywood.
This is an incredible topic and I think I'll be checking this out soon. I have 0 doubt that for how poorly media has been with trans issues, it can also help be what turns the tide.
We watched it last week. It was a great deconstruction of where we are today with the representation of trans people in Hollywood. It ends on a somewhat hopeful note that I hope carries through into the future to improve representation.
We definitely need more trans people playing big roles, and we need more LGBT people playing LGBT characters.
There is always a superficial, plastic feel to straight cis people playing LGBT roles, as much as the piece itself has high production values and whatnot (like the Danish Girl, for example, I was uncomfortable through the whole movie, even though it's a good movie and I should have felt positive about it).
I can't speak for trans people, but I know I don't feel great watching straight men playing gay men.
There is always a superficial, plastic feel to straight cis people playing LGBT roles, as much as the piece itself has high production values and whatnot (like the Danish Girl, for example, I was uncomfortable through the whole movie, even though it's a good movie and I should have felt positive about it).
I can't speak for trans people, but I know I don't feel great watching straight men playing gay men.
The days of cis men and women playing gay roles is over...the days of straight men and women playing trans roles is over.. the days of white men and women playing black roles & voices are over. I will definitely watch.
Whats going on with POSE on Netflix? Its not playing, there's a error message when I try to play it.
Whats going on with POSE on Netflix? Its not playing, there's a error message when I try to play it.
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