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CanUKlehead

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,406
Love me some Sega Rally/Rallisport Challenge/Dirt '07 back in the day, but the Forza twins have pretty much hogged all my racing game time for the past ten years.

I did try whatever Dirt is on Game Pass, and it was alright, happy to try D5 whenever it gets on GP.
 

HaremKing

Banned
Dec 20, 2018
2,416
The only 'racing' games I've ever liked were the super sci-fi ones like Wipeout/San Francisco Rush/Extreme G

However, seeing how there's basically nothing like those games anymore, my opinion and that of the majority are likely polar opposites.

If someone says "arcade racer" and it's just a regular looking car and drives more or less like a regular car then I typically have no interest.
 

Foffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,390
I think one of the problems Dirt 5 has is...just who exactly is it for? On PC, it only recently got wheel support and even then it has some teething issues. It seems people are more invested in Dirt Rally and that series will die off when it becomes World Rally Championship when Codemasters/EA gets the license in a few years. What's Dirt's future when it started as a rallycross game and that's now been migrated to a side series that's eventually going to be used as a different IP to boost?

If you look at the games that get more players -- F1 2020, Dirt Rally 2.0, Assetto Corsa Competizione, and even Assetto Corsa (this might be one of the oldest sims still having a large userbase and it's recently had numbers that show up the other games) -- they all offer something other games lack. Assetto Corsa has crazy mod capabilities, meaning its current limitations is what the community can make of it. Competizione is focused primarily on the GT World Challenge and focuses deeply on GT3 cars more than any currently supported game. Dirt Rally 2.0 is probably the most comprehensive rally sim outside of the current WRC games which are all timed-exclusive to the Epic Games Store so its direct competition is on a store people avoid using. F1 2020 represents what's likely the most popular license in motosports today.

Project CARS 3 suffers this same problem. It's a game that exists, and in the world of racing games, it's slowly evolved into fighting games. Not everyone plays everything, people stick to particular titles. Even Dirt 5's playground mode, which seems like it will capitalize on the games more "extreme sports" spin, is something you already get in games that might better encapsulate that type of crazy stuff like Trackmania. Right now the edge Dirt 5 has over many other racing games is it's one that has upgrades for the now-current generation of platforms, but honestly, that's about it. Will this matter in a year or two when Gran Turismo and Forza Motorsport likely have their games out?
 

daninthemix

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,024
I got it in the Steam sale. Seems like they're really going for a Forza Horizon vibe. Problem is, if that's what you want, Forza Horizon does everything Dirt 5 does with a lot more polish and, frankly, money.
 
Jun 20, 2018
1,269
I feel so sorry for the ex-Evolution guys as they just can't seem to catch a break, but this does seem oddly rushed/low budget. No mud deformation?

Dirt 5 and Project Cars 3 both have this odd feeling about them, where the timing seems odd, and it's not clear who the target audience is anymore.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,238
I know this is a rather late reply but after a glance at those first two pages I didn't see a response about the numbers. They're literally just to let you know how sharp a corner is from a grade of 1-6 with 6 being the sharpest. You'll probably encounter it in most rally games but it is something taken from the actual sport yeah.
Ooh thank you for the explanation! That makes lot of sense, honestly I got a bit intimidated by it because I felt that I had do something with that info but had no idea what it meant hahaha
 

Atolm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,829
Some are going stronger each time (MK, Forza Horizon) and GT has find it's form again after a badly performing GT6. Here are some gamestats (players) numbers:

GTS: ~13 million
FH4: ~ 22 million (~5 million monthly active users)

Those are the big one, but it's clear other franchises like F1 2020 are struggling. Less than a million players on PS (all-time). I think the genre itself is declining and with now two insanely successful franchises, there is less space for success for the rest. I hope this changes, because I want diversity and different racing games.

It doesn't help that current F1 interests almost no one. The sport is at its lowest point in many decades, I can't remember any other worse era.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,302
I feel so sorry for the ex-Evolution guys as they just can't seem to catch a break, but this does seem oddly rushed/low budget. No mud deformation?

Dirt 5 and Project Cars 3 both have this odd feeling about them, where the timing seems odd, and it's not clear who the target audience is anymore.

I always say this too regarding the ex-Evolution guys, but Dirt 5 just feels so underwhelming even compared to anything they've ever done before. Dirt 5 just feels dead behind the eyes - the lack of track deformation or any impact of weather etc being a good example. It's becoming difficult to maintain good faith.

As for the racing audience, I'm inclined to agree that it's starting to feel like these games just don't have a place anymore. There are success stories in the racing space - big ones Infact - but they are almost exclusively based around sim racing. The racing genre has arguably never been healthier if you own a wheel and want to feel like a real race driver. For everyone else, there's the Forza Horizon series, which again is a huge sales success. Outside of that? Good luck to anyone trying.
 

furfoot

Member
Dec 12, 2017
598
The more the racing crowd on PC gets a taste of VR the less likely they will be to purchase racing games with no VR or wheel support.

A forza horizon with properly optimised VR (Hi there ACC, PC3) would be the dream.
 

Skade

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,869
I would say that, unsurprisingly, nobody gives a flying fuck about the Ghym Khana thinghy.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,302
I would say that, unsurprisingly, nobody gives a flying fuck about the Ghym Khana thinghy.

I strongly dislike the Ghymkhana stuff. It stinks of something they thought would be more fun than it actually is, which can be applied to most of Dirt 5 to be honest. It feels like they wanted something they thought would engage a Twitch audience, rather than actually being fun for anyone to play.
 

Skade

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,869
I strongly dislike the Ghymkhana stuff. It stinks of something they thought would be more fun than it actually is, which can be applied to most of Dirt 5 to be honest. It feels like they wanted something they thought would engage a Twitch audience, rather than actually being fun for anyone to play.

It's solely there because of the Ken Block partnership i'd say. Wich they took as a replacement for Colin McRae. I understand the need to keep a famous name on the box. I just don't think Ken Block was the one they needed for what was once a great Rallye franchise.

Such a shame.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,398
Melbourne, Australia
I think one of the problems Dirt 5 has is...just who exactly is it for? On PC, it only recently got wheel support and even then it has some teething issues. It seems people are more invested in Dirt Rally and that series will die off when it becomes World Rally Championship when Codemasters/EA gets the license in a few years. What's Dirt's future when it started as a rallycross game and that's now been migrated to a side series that's eventually going to be used as a different IP to boost?

If you look at the games that get more players -- F1 2020, Dirt Rally 2.0, Assetto Corsa Competizione, and even Assetto Corsa (this might be one of the oldest sims still having a large userbase and it's recently had numbers that show up the other games) -- they all offer something other games lack. Assetto Corsa has crazy mod capabilities, meaning its current limitations is what the community can make of it. Competizione is focused primarily on the GT World Challenge and focuses deeply on GT3 cars more than any currently supported game. Dirt Rally 2.0 is probably the most comprehensive rally sim outside of the current WRC games which are all timed-exclusive to the Epic Games Store so its direct competition is on a store people avoid using. F1 2020 represents what's likely the most popular license in motosports today.

Project CARS 3 suffers this same problem. It's a game that exists, and in the world of racing games, it's slowly evolved into fighting games. Not everyone plays everything, people stick to particular titles. Even Dirt 5's playground mode, which seems like it will capitalize on the games more "extreme sports" spin, is something you already get in games that might better encapsulate that type of crazy stuff like Trackmania. Right now the edge Dirt 5 has over many other racing games is it's one that has upgrades for the now-current generation of platforms, but honestly, that's about it. Will this matter in a year or two when Gran Turismo and Forza Motorsport likely have their games out?
Not a single one of the game's you mentioned is an Arcade Racer (except for TrackMania...I guess? But TrackMania barely even feels like a "race"). Dirt 5 is...so maybe it's for people who like Arcade Racers? I don't think the game is that hard to understand.
 

Deleted member 35478

User-requested account closure
Banned
Dec 6, 2017
1,788
I primarily play racing games, and on PC. If I'm in the mood for an arcade experience it's Forza Horizon, a light sim inspired game Forza Motorsport, full sim Assetto Corsa, Dirt Rally 2.0, or iRacing. I mean there it is.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,685
It's a shame . Me and 2 friends tried to game and no word of a lie, we could not really play because it's matchmaking only and often couldn't find anybody else to get a game started. Sometimes after maybe several minutes it might let us play, but once the race was does it would sit and search again.
 
Apr 4, 2018
4,514
Vancouver, BC
It's a shame . Me and 2 friends tried to game and no word of a lie, we could not really play because it's matchmaking only and often couldn't find anybody else to get a game started. Sometimes after maybe several minutes it might let us play, but once the race was does it would sit and search again.

Which platform are you playing on?

I imagine this game did quite well on consoles, but am not surprised at all it didn't do great on PC, where players seem to dislike arcadey Dirt games.

Also, on Xbox I noticed multiplayer feeling a bit barren, but Arcade mode seems ripe with cool tracks and content. It almost feels like people are just spending thier time in arcade and career modes.

I'd like to play some online racers, but to be honest, I could imagine Onrush blows this game away in online anyways, so I'd probably hop back onto that eventually for my arcadey online car game thrills.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,685
It was on Xbox for me, I was genuinely surprised.
Maybe it was a serve issue or we were playing at a bad time maybe?
Most it was annoying there was no way to play a private game
 

AgentOtaku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,444
I feel so sorry for the ex-Evolution guys as they just can't seem to catch a break, but this does seem oddly rushed/low budget. No mud deformation?

Dirt 5 and Project Cars 3 both have this odd feeling about them, where the timing seems odd, and it's not clear who the target audience is anymore.

Yeah, after coming in super hot on PS5 (performance issues, tearing, wack AI), I kinda bounced off of it. Also, it has a shit soundtrack, but I don't know if thats just a reflection of the state of music today as opposed to Midnight Club LA/PGR4 era artists.
The music has... Like, no theme/identity to it (as opposed to something like DiRT2). I literally comes off as some random-ass spotify list.
 

Namtox

Member
Nov 3, 2017
979
I've said it before, the game has one of the worst multiplayer modes not just in a racing game, in any game I've seen in years. It's truly baffling that they thought this multiplayer would be acceptable.

A robust and halfway decent multiplayer mode where people could just get together and race on fun custom tracks like a Trackmania server could have done so much for it, but it has nothing even close.
 

SkoomaBlade

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,054
Yeah, after coming in super hot on PS5 (performance issues, tearing, wack AI), I kinda bounced off of it. Also, it has a shit soundtrack, but I don't know if thats just a reflection of the state of music today as opposed to Midnight Club LA/PGR4 era artists.
The music has... Like, no theme/identity to it (as opposed to something like DiRT2). I literally comes off as some random-ass spotify list.
I though On-Rush had a shit soundtrack too. I think its the only game I've ever actively turned off the music for and listened to my own stuff.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,524
I did wanna try this with all the RTX stuff in it, but I won't lie, I was waiting for gamepass.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,302
Not a single one of the game's you mentioned is an Arcade Racer (except for TrackMania...I guess? But TrackMania barely even feels like a "race"). Dirt 5 is...so maybe it's for people who like Arcade Racers? I don't think the game is that hard to understand.

This is part of the problem. Dirt 5 doesn't really seem to please the Arcade racing audience, either. It feels like a game to me where removing point-to-point rally from the equation and wrapping it in a particular visual and audio aesthetic was seen as enough to make it an "arcade racer". It's all very surface level.

None of the racing games in the post you quoted are arcade racers, but they are all extremely focused in their design and what they want to be (F1 is more flexible, depending on your settings). That's an attribute not shared by Dirt 5, which feels like an unfocused mix of ideas, relying on aesthetic choices to sell itself as an arcade racer without actually doing anything interesting or even fun within that label.
 

Okada

Member
Nov 8, 2017
551
...That's an attribute not shared by Dirt 5, which feels like an unfocused mix of ideas, relying on aesthetic choices to sell itself as an arcade racer without actually doing anything interesting or even fun within that label.

I really enjoyed Dirt 5 and completed it 100% but I think you've hit the nail on the head with this.
 

Skade

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,869
Presumably if that was the case they would have stopped putting it in 4 games ago.

Well, there wasn't "too much" in previous entries (still too much for my tastes but it was "ok"). But 5 is just choke full of it. To the point of the very first trailer for the game was just that, Ghym Khana things left and right, stadium races and no sight of rallying.

Basically, when i saw the announcement i was : "Ooh, Dirt 5, cool", and then after the trailer : "nope, nope nope nope". In fact, i'm not even sure there's any "true" rallying in 5.
 

daninthemix

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,024
This is part of the problem. Dirt 5 doesn't really seem to please the Arcade racing audience, either. It feels like a game to me where removing point-to-point rally from the equation and wrapping it in a particular visual and audio aesthetic was seen as enough to make it an "arcade racer". It's all very surface level.

None of the racing games in the post you quoted are arcade racers, but they are all extremely focused in their design and what they want to be (F1 is more flexible, depending on your settings). That's an attribute not shared by Dirt 5, which feels like an unfocused mix of ideas, relying on aesthetic choices to sell itself as an arcade racer without actually doing anything interesting or even fun within that label.
This is absolutely spot-on.

It's trying to copy the aesthetics of a Forza Horizon, but with about one tenth of the budget.
 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,692
Well, there wasn't "too much" in previous entries (still too much for my tastes and it was "ok"). But 5 is just choke full of it. To the point of the very first trailer for the game was just that, Ghym Khana things left and right, stadium races and no sight of rallying.

Basically, when i saw the announcement i was : "Ooh, Dirt 5, cool", and then after the trailer : "nope, nope nope nope". In fact, i'm not even sure there's any "true" rallying in 5.
What? There was way more Gymkhana stuff in previous games. There's only a handful of gymkhana events in the game, and the announcement trailer literally didn't have any in it.


Are you somehow confusing Dirt 5 with Dirt 3, the entry which was build around Gymkhana as its main addition and pushed it in marketing and in the game constantly?

Or are you confusing stadium races with gymkhana....Because then yeah, I guess Dirt 5 is more about Rally-Cross style events than traditional Rally with Dirt Rally being the series to focus on that.
 

Mr.Deadshot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,285
I really wish I understood why so many genres are floundering this hard these days. It feels like we have greater access to games than ever but less and less KINDS of games seem to be doing well. Like I don't play racing games much at all, but these ones USED to do well and now they're just...not.

What the hell is going on with the industry? Did GaaS games really just carve up the lion's share of the casual buyer market?
F2P and GaaS is my guess. There are just too many games that demand your full commitment and it doesn't help that the biggest games that almost everyone plays are these kind of games. And then there are the mega AAA games. There seems to be almost no room for 60€ AA games anymore.
 

Skade

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,869
Or are you confusing stadium races with gymkhana....Because then yeah, I guess Dirt 5 is more about Rally-Cross style events than traditional Rally with Dirt Rally being the series to focus on that.

Yeah, i guess i do. But still, Dirt for me was always meant to be a Rallying game first and foremost. The promotion of 5 made it clear it wasn't at all the case anymore. So i noped hard on it.
 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,692
Yeah, i guess i do. But still, Dirt for me was always meant to be a Rallying game first and foremost. The promotion of 5 made it clear it wasn't at all the case anymore.
True, Dirt Rally fills that niche, the main Dirt series has been going more arcadey and focussing on other event types since around Dirt 3.
 

LossAversion

The Merchant of ERA
Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,714
I've been curious about how Codemaster's games have been performing for a while now. I remember that the Grid reboot went on a DEEP sale almost immediately after launch. I don't remember exactly how bad it was but it was something like $15 or $20 for a game that had practically just released.
 

Radium217

Banned
Oct 31, 2019
1,833
I think it's a really good racer tbh. The podcasts, graphics, music, career length are all pretty good. But it just doesn't have that bid budget feel. Which is weird because it was a big name.

It just seems like they didn't sell it to every player like they could've. It's an easy game with low barrier to entry. Even if you don't like racers much I think there's fun to be had here.
 

Foffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,390
Not a single one of the game's you mentioned is an Arcade Racer (except for TrackMania...I guess? But TrackMania barely even feels like a "race"). Dirt 5 is...so maybe it's for people who like Arcade Racers? I don't think the game is that hard to understand.

I don't think sim or arcade racers have a large divide. I mean, people play Rocket League, so it's not like on PC everything has to "be a sim or else." The issue is with Dirt 5, what's the identity it has? It's an offroad racing game that tries to go for a colorful extreme sports approach. But what does it actually do with it, that for example, Forza Horizon cannot do with its track editor system? I made the Trackmania comparison because it seems to be focusing heavily on creating tracks, and there's already a crazy game for that. For offroad games, it has competitors, and even better examples, within its own IP. Wreckfest, which is more of an arcadey destruction derby game, has an audience. And that's because it focuses completely on the idea of being a destruction derby game. You know from the type of game that it is, that it's going to be chaos when you race, and the game embraces that entirely. It helps it has nothing else similar in that lane.

The Dirt series has taken the core part of offroad racing and segmented that into a side series, so the main games are just "Offroad GRID." And GRID too failed to grab an audience. I don't say this as a knock but both GRID 2019 and Dirt 5 are akin to mobile titles (not in production values so please don't take that from my comparison) in the sense that they're average and exist in a sea of more particular, standout games. They're more of titles to pick up when you're looking for something simple, like a break game between releases of interest. That means only the super hardcore of racing fans will consider those titles, and almost always on a sale as they'll likely be playing other racing games instead. Relying on potentially a super hardcore audience when you're making a more accessible racing game isn't grounds for it doing well, as we've seen. F1 and Dirt Rally are the only focused Codemasters racing games, and they're the only ones really working, business practices of greed aside. Both types of games represent very dedicated and difficult styles of racing, so even styles of racing which have actual difficulty barriers are able to find an audience. Obviously "simpler" games can too, Mario Kart is the king in the racing genre, but if you asked me what makes Dirt 5 stand out from any recent offroad racing game, the first thing I'd say is it's one of the few that has a next-gen version. That says nothing about what it does.

If you're not a big name racing series like Gran Turismo or Forza, or a licensed game series like F1 or NASCAR, you need an identity with your game that's more than skin deep. Sadly, Dirt 5 doesn't appear to have that, and I think the lack of interest because of that shows. To make a comparison to another offroad racing game, Overpass, I'd like to just show one gameplay sample to emphasize my point that Dirt 5's issue is a lack of actual identity beyond appearances. With a game like Overpass, you can see it's trying to craft out an identity focusing on using the physics model and methods of driving to pass challenges. Compare that to any Dirt 5 clip and all you really see is the visual style coming to the forefront. At that point you're just hoping people rush for your game because they have new hardware and want games for it and on PC, unless I'm mistaken, the technical showcases currently for racing games is Assetto Corsa Competizione and Dirt Rally 2.0.