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V3N1X

V3N1X

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 16, 2021
796
Alexandria, Egypt
20220312_175259cykva.jpg

Now that's a case/build that has awesome internals and looks the part.

My PC is awesome inside but looks awful since I'm still using my 2011 NZXT 210 Elite case, looking to replace soon with a Thermaltake VIEW 51 TG but I'm just so busy never got around to it.
 
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V3N1X

V3N1X

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 16, 2021
796
Alexandria, Egypt
You mean on windows. Fat chance that would require current windows being redone in a way MS won't cause it will mess with legacy base.

SteamOS does it if you use it.

Windows can already do this btw, it's called Hibernation... MS just needs to invest the dev resources to get it working with games outside of hibernation mode.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,389
Houston, TX
While any game can benefit, something like SF6 isn't the ideal candidate for this, since you're dealing with generally constrained environments, and you aren't bringing nearly as much in and out of memory on the fly. Games with large open worlds like Forspoken are going to most notably benefit from things like this, I'd imagine.
But couldn't the game benefit from instant loading from selecting your character?
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
20220312_175259cykva.jpg



Finished the build on Saturday. It's already pretty dang fast to load software, etc, but you're still not talking about PS5 exclusive load speeds even with a 12900K. I generally target builds at new OSs, so it's great seeing resizable BAR, auto HDR etc. And I'm obviously very ready to take advantage of direct storage too.


I've run multiple raid setups and know the risk. I won't put data on this that isn't getting backed up to the cloud, and you may be surprised to hear this, but installing windows from USB was *pretty fast*. The entire build was done without copying over any data from my old PC. Everything came from the cloud and thanks to Game Pass and Steam that included most of my save games. There's some Epic Games Store games I have that don't use built in cloud saves, but nothing I'm particularly worried about having lost. Starting from an empty hard drive is pretty easy these days if you're invested in Microsoft's eco system.

The main thing would be redownloading whatever games I want to play. Flight Sim took quite a while to download (especially with the free content packs).

Mainly, the appeal of RAID 0 here was as much about giving me a single 4 TB volume to throw games at, vs my old build where my fast storage was circa 800 GB and I regularly had to move and juggle software between that and a large 7200 RPM secondary volume.

One of the most notable improvements with this build so far are load times, but I know we're barely scratching the surface until we get direct storage and games developed for it.


While any game can benefit, something like SF6 isn't the ideal candidate for this, since you're dealing with generally constrained environments, and you aren't bringing nearly as much in and out of memory on the fly. Games with large open worlds like Forspoken are going to most notably benefit from things like this, I'd imagine.

new build! and it looks fantastic. congrats :DDDDD
 

TURBO1112

Member
Oct 25, 2017
596
Should I upgrade to windows 11? recently got my PC but had been holding off. Only use it for gaming
 

LCGeek

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,857
Windows can already do this btw, it's called Hibernation... MS just needs to invest the dev resources to get it working with games outside of hibernation mode.

and you can check my post history or others who've used it's inconsistent at times.

I'd like something a lot more consistent that works more like steamOs, xbox or emulators.
 

Timu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,585
Should also stress that any differences that big would be on initial load only (ie. from main menu to game) and not when you're reloading a save or fast travelling.
Oh yeah I forgot about that too. I still expect Gen 4 to be better but how much better is to be determined.

Should I upgrade to windows 11? recently got my PC but had been holding off. Only use it for gaming
I would say yes since you mainly use it for gaming.
 

Deleted member 93062

Account closed at user request
Banned
Mar 4, 2021
24,767
20220312_175259cykva.jpg



Finished the build on Saturday. It's already pretty dang fast to load software, etc, but you're still not talking about PS5 exclusive load speeds even with a 12900K. I generally target builds at new OSs, so it's great seeing resizable BAR, auto HDR etc. And I'm obviously very ready to take advantage of direct storage too.


I've run multiple raid setups and know the risk. I won't put data on this that isn't getting backed up to the cloud, and you may be surprised to hear this, but installing windows from USB was *pretty fast*. The entire build was done without copying over any data from my old PC. Everything came from the cloud and thanks to Game Pass and Steam that included most of my save games. There's some Epic Games Store games I have that don't use built in cloud saves, but nothing I'm particularly worried about having lost. Starting from an empty hard drive is pretty easy these days if you're invested in Microsoft's eco system.

The main thing would be redownloading whatever games I want to play. Flight Sim took quite a while to download (especially with the free content packs).

Mainly, the appeal of RAID 0 here was as much about giving me a single 4 TB volume to throw games at, vs my old build where my fast storage was circa 800 GB and I regularly had to move and juggle software between that and a large 7200 RPM secondary volume.

One of the most notable improvements with this build so far are load times, but I know we're barely scratching the surface until we get direct storage and games developed for it.


While any game can benefit, something like SF6 isn't the ideal candidate for this, since you're dealing with generally constrained environments, and you aren't bringing nearly as much in and out of memory on the fly. Games with large open worlds like Forspoken are going to most notably benefit from things like this, I'd imagine.

That's a beautiful machine!
 

Shalashaska

Prophet of Regret
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,427
Cool to see this coming out. Hopefully we see games supporting it soon. I want something to put my PCIe 4 SSD to the test.
 

Hoddi

Member
Mar 29, 2021
59
Is there a compiled version for download?

Looking forward to your results
Compiled version.

If you want to use the 16k images then you'll have to edit demo-hubble.bat and point it to where you've extracted the file. Demo.bat and stress.bat should otherwise run without any changes.

Edit: Fixed the original link with a proper version.
 
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dlemarc

Member
Oct 31, 2017
391
Been waiting for this, so glad it's finally here. I'll be interested to see what already released games (like the aforementioned Witcher 3) will implement this. I'm another person with 4TB of NVME in raid 0.
 

Polyh3dron

Prophet of Regret
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,860
Learned my raid 0 lesson when one of the drives crashed and I had to re-do everything. Not worth it! I knew the risks and everything going in, but when it happens to you, it just sucks.
Only reason I'm not running a RAID 0 of my M.2s on my main PC is that for some reason it seems to have caused a shit ton of extra DPC latency in my system (LatencyMon blamed storport.sys).. Reverted to JBOD and it seems to be much better.
 

Filipus

Prophet of Regret
Avenger
Dec 7, 2017
5,134
Probably would have been a smart move to get 1-2 first party games to support this on launch?

Glad it's here, excited to try it out
 

CreepingFear

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
16,766
Building a new rig later this year with PCIe 4 NVME drives and hopefully a 40 series card/ and either 13th gen Intel/ Zen 4 processor. Hopefully, by then there will be some games to test this on.
 
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V3N1X

V3N1X

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 16, 2021
796
Alexandria, Egypt
Probably would have been a smart move to get 1-2 first party games to support this on launch?

Glad it's here, excited to try it out

I mean, if you have no games in the pipeline you never hold a technology like this from release... especially if you want to get it in the hands of non-partnered devs who are not under NDA so you can increase adoption.
 

Filipus

Prophet of Regret
Avenger
Dec 7, 2017
5,134
I mean, if you have no games in the pipeline you never hold a technology like this from release... especially if you want to get it in the hands of non-partnered devs who are not under NDA so you can increase adoption.

I think I would have a different perspective on it. I would assume if you are releasing a technology like this it needs testing. What better testing than a game already in production, specially a first party? Why not pick Forza Horizon 5 as you are developing Direct Storage for PC and make sure it's release ready by having it available in FH5 at release?
I would assume Playgrounds has some form of branching in their codebase and this could easily be done.

We know they had devs testing this since last year, just weird to not release this with a first party game update in my opinion.
 

Xyber

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,296
DX12 came out in 2015. Eldin Ring is the only exception

I have experienced stuttering in quite a few DX12 games to say that it's not just "an exeption" with Elden Ring.
First time I really noticed it was with BF1 (and later BF5) where DX11 was very smooth. Switching over to DX12 was terrible and I found it borderline unplayable because of how much it stuttered. Have experienced it in more DX12 games after that, but those 2 games are the ones I can remember right now.
 
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V3N1X

V3N1X

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 16, 2021
796
Alexandria, Egypt
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V3N1X

V3N1X

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 16, 2021
796
Alexandria, Egypt
It's an exception when a DX12 game doesn't stutter to some degree.

Not for any fault with the SDK.

Chances are, if a dev built an engine/game with DX12 and it is stuttering due to shader compilation issues, it'd have similar stuttering/issues if the engine's graphics back-end was Vulkan.

The SDK does NOT matter.

Here's Alex from DF on the matter:




Like guys, please for the love of god... stop blaming issues like this on the SDK when it's not at fault.
 
Why DX12's performance in games is the responsibility of the game/engine engineers

Edward850

Software & Netcode Engineer at Nightdive Studios
Verified
Apr 5, 2019
992
New Zealand
Like guys, please for the love of god... stop blaming issues like this on the SDK when it's not at fault.
Absolutely correct. DX12 is a very powerful API, but with great power comes something something you know the words already.
Namely, the key difference is that it's designed around no longer being able to surprise the GPU with an entirely new rendering state, those kinds of structures are now pre-arranged. Previous rendering APIs could change the state whenever and to whatever, and if your GPU driver did any predictive work as to how to render the scene that turned out to be wrong, all that work had to be chucked out and restarted. This was the critical reason why Nvidia drivers were so much faster than ATI/AMD back in the days of OpenGL (remember RAGE/idTech4?), because Nvidia would spend a lot of time optimizing work loads for specific games and around smarter speculative caching.

DX12 bridges that gap and no longer requires the driver to do speculative work to push out performance, but the catch is now it's the developers job to design smarter pipeline states that are configured ahead of time. What's happening with games like Elden Ring is that some developers seem to be unaware, unwilling, unable, or just don't know how to design a rendering pipeline this way. It's something that needs to change your thinking on how to do rendering to adapt to, if you were already used to how DX9 and OpenGL did things (old examples but they are common APIs everyone starts with). This is what contributes to the stuttering, DX12 can still change these states "on the fly" but you're now waiting for a new pipeline state to compile in order to do so, where as what you're supposed to be doing is designing your pipelines in advance OR creating a sandbox in which all render states in your game can be generated in advance.
 
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Reinhard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,608
It would depend on load times since Gen 4 will definitely be faster than Gen 3 but those are the guesstimates on what to expect currently.
Eh, Xbox Series NVME drive is pretty much the same as the PCI Gen 3 drive for read/write speeds, in fact it is slower than my PCI express gen 3 drive. And the 2 lanes of PCI express 4.0 bandwidth on the Series X is equivalent bandwidth to 4 lanes of PCI Express 3.0 on a PC. So I don't think there is going to be such a dramatic difference since I am sure devs will go for what's easiest, ie, having DirectStorage support be similar to what the Series X is doing in games with storage.
 

pswii60

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,677
The Milky Way
Who wanna bet that this will cause stutter like DX12
Have you tried rearranging your desktop icons and emptying the recycle bin whilst holding Numlock, stutters are gone for me.
You mean on windows. Fat chance that would require current windows being redone in a way MS won't cause it will mess with legacy base.

SteamOS does it if you use it.
SteamOS lets you have resume states across multiple games like on XS? How many games can you have resume states for at once?
 

Cameron122

Rescued from SR388
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,289
Texas
Elden Ring doesn't stutter bc of DirectX12 Elden Ring stutters bc From Software's engine gets confused when it can't find the PlayStation 2's Emotion Engine CPU
 

Teeth

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,940
Absolutely correct. DX12 is a very powerful API, but with great power comes something something you know the words already.
Namely, the key difference is that it's designed around no longer being able to surprise the GPU with an entirely new rendering state, those kinds of structures are now pre-arranged. Previous rendering APIs could change the state whenever and to whatever, and if your GPU driver did any predictive work as to how the render the scene that turned out to be wrong, all that work had to be chucked out and restarted. This was the critical reason why Nvidia drivers were so much faster than ATI/AMD, because Nvidia would spend a lot of time optimizing work loads for specific games and around smarter speculative caching.

DX12 bridges that gap and no longer requires the driver to do speculative work to push out performance, but the catch is now it's the developers job to design smarter pipeline states that are configured ahead of time. What's happening with games like Elden Ring is that some developers seem to be unaware, unwilling, or just don't know how to design a rendering pipeline this way. It's something that needs to change your thinking on how to do rendering to adapt to, if you were already used to how DX9 and OpenGL did things (old examples but they are common APIs everyone starts with). This is what contributes to the stuttering, DX12 can still change these states "on the fly" but you're now waiting for a new pipeline state to compile in order to do so, where as what you're supposed to be doing is designing your pipelines in advance OR creating a sandbox in which all render states in your game can be generated in advance.

Sure, but it's sort of like if Uber forced all of its drivers to use manual transmission cars; you can blame all the unskilled uber drivers for having herky-jerky rides because they spent 10 years driving automatic and now are fumbling through driving stick. You could point to the manual transmission cars as more efficient, easier to repair, with greater control over shifting, and all the rest of it and say it's not the manual transmission that is at fault, it's just a bunch of drivers who don't know what they are doing.

As the person riding in the back seat, I can look at how I rode with Driver A before and it was fine and smooth and when i drove with Driver A after the Uber Manual Policy Mandate it was herky jerky and a bad experience. It kind of doesn't matter to me that nVidia was spending millions making uniquely tuned automatic transmissions as smooth as possible for each individual car manufacturer.
 
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V3N1X

V3N1X

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 16, 2021
796
Alexandria, Egypt
Absolutely correct. DX12 is a very powerful API, but with great power comes something something you know the words already.
Namely, the key difference is that it's designed around no longer being able to surprise the GPU with an entirely new rendering state, those kinds of structures are now pre-arranged. Previous rendering APIs could change the state whenever and to whatever, and if your GPU driver did any predictive work as to how the render the scene that turned out to be wrong, all that work had to be chucked out and restarted. This was the critical reason why Nvidia drivers were so much faster than ATI/AMD, because Nvidia would spend a lot of time optimizing work loads for specific games and around smarter speculative caching.

DX12 bridges that gap and no longer requires the driver to do speculative work to push out performance, but the catch is now it's the developers job to design smarter pipeline states that are configured ahead of time. What's happening with games like Elden Ring is that some developers seem to be unaware, unwilling, or just don't know how to design a rendering pipeline this way. It's something that needs to change your thinking on how to do rendering to adapt to, if you were already used to how DX9 and OpenGL did things (old examples but they are common APIs everyone starts with). This is what contributes to the stuttering, DX12 can still change these states "on the fly" but you're now waiting for a new pipeline state to compile in order to do so, where as what you're supposed to be doing is designing your pipelines in advance OR creating a sandbox in which all render states in your game can be generated in advance.

Thanks for such a rich, detailed yet simple to understand explanation, threadmarked for posterity... hopefully we can listen to people who actually do game dev instead of forming our own uninformed opinions going forward.
 

Edward850

Software & Netcode Engineer at Nightdive Studios
Verified
Apr 5, 2019
992
New Zealand
Sure, but it's sort of like if Uber forced all of its drivers to use manual transmission cars; you can blame all the unskilled uber drivers for having herky-jerky rides because they spent 10 years driving automatic and now are fumbling through driving stick. You could point to the manual transmission cars as more efficient, easier to repair, with greater control over shifting, and all the rest of it and say it's not the manual transmission that is at fault, it's just a bunch of drivers who don't know what they are doing.

As the person riding in the back seat, I can look at how I rode with Driver A before and it was fine and smooth and when i drove with Driver A after the Uber Manual Policy Mandate it was herky jerky and a bad experience. It kind of doesn't matter to me that nVidia was spending millions making uniquely tuned automatic transmissions as smooth as possible for each individual car manufacturer.
Computer APIs aren't cars, this analogy doesn't exactly translate. Computer hardware changes over time, we need new APIs to take advantage of new hardware and features. These concepts don't always scale back to the old way things are done, plain and simple. This isn't an arbitrary change to a concept that already existed, this was an entire pipeline change to adapt to how hardware now actually works, to take advantage of better power efficacy, or new hardware infrastructure.
 
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V3N1X

V3N1X

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 16, 2021
796
Alexandria, Egypt
Sure, but it's sort of like if Uber forced all of its drivers to use manual transmission cars; you can blame all the unskilled uber drivers for having herky-jerky rides because they spent 10 years driving automatic and now are fumbling through driving stick. You could point to the manual transmission cars as more efficient, easier to repair, with greater control over shifting, and all the rest of it and say it's not the manual transmission that is at fault, it's just a bunch of drivers who don't know what they are doing.

As the person riding in the back seat, I can look at how I rode with Driver A before and it was fine and smooth and when i drove with Driver A after the Uber Manual Policy Mandate it was herky jerky and a bad experience. It kind of doesn't matter to me that nVidia was spending millions making uniquely tuned automatic transmissions as smooth as possible for each individual car manufacturer.

Talk about missing the point in its entirety.

Microsoft isn't forcing anyone to utilize DX12, but they can't keep adding new features to an old API like DX11... if FromSoftware for example didn't have time to optimize the DX12 back-end properly they could have easily utilized DX11 on PC but I suspect they just took the faster, easier way out and since they were gonna support DX12 on Xbox Series consoles anyway they chose the same for PC.

Choices like the above crop up in software dev all the time, and choosing the technology you're using correctly is one of the most important decisions that might cause technical debt to make/break a project because your engineers are unfamiliar with a core piece of technology upon which your codebase is built.

The SDK is not to blame here in any way shape or form.... maybe invest in training your engineers on new SDKs/APIs or hire people with history of optimizing for said SDKs and put them to work.

Edit: In the next few years take a look at geometry pipelines as engines/devs take the leap to using Mesh Shaders instead of Vertex Shaders... new tech, possibility to extract more performance but also more responsibility since they run like compute shaders so you can do anything with them... who's responsible for properly learning how to utilize/optimize for the new geometry pipeline?
 

plagiarize

It's not a loop. It's a spiral.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,560
Cape Cod, MA
I'm an idiot. I uploaded a debug version which requires the debug version of MSVC. You get that with Visual Studio but not the public VC redist.

V3N1X uploaded the release version so everyone should just use that.
No worries, since I'd got the Hubble imagery with your link, it wasn't a total waste of time.

I'm not sure I'm getting any perceptual differences with my setup. My speeds already seem broken eitherway. I'm seeing similar read speed averages (5000 to 8000 MB/s average), and max read speeds upwards of 50,000 MB/s. Which. Uh... wow.