• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Shirkelton

Member
Aug 20, 2020
5,975
As you said, BC isn't a priority for Sony so there is no reason to believe BC are going to get a massive uptick in the PS5. Also it's not all down to the hardware, MS has a dedicated team for BC and they have made these games shine on the Series X. I don't believe Sony has a dedicated team.

That's what I mean, it's a different situation for both of them, so if one's lesser you can probably put it down to that. That said, hard to count Cerny out of anything, guy's a fucking freak.

And yeah, obviously there's no real reason to worry about Series X gameplay, it's just odd to see the same arguments being trotted out about why things aren't being shown while that's staring people in the face.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
Sure. No idea what it is has to do with this tho.

You corrected them and they aren't wrong. The entire point of smart delivery is that it is the "same game" no matter what platform, just the best it can be. Microsoft want it to be a single SKU that you view as one game on whatever device you own. You've go the same acheivements list, the same saves, play with the same people. That kind of thing, so they're not really wrong. To the consumer it is supposed to appear as one version, and appear as if the box you buy determines the experience you get, purely.

Your correction to what it is is like, the least exciting aspect of it that isn't even an innovation. Cross buy already exists.

It's a weird semantic conversation though. But the way that poster was using it, they were confused why series S wouldn't use the best version it possibly could. Unfortunately it won't be playing Xbox One games with the One X patches, even though it probably could with some patching to address the memory constraints. And if a given game was smart delivery it would do that, but that's not the case with normal BC Xbox One games. <-- this is the information they weren't understanding.
 

Bede-x

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,382
Xbox 360 games will run with XB1X enhancements but at 1440p.

This could be misunderstood, because it sounds like all 360 games will run at 1440p on Series S and it's only those that are One X enhanced, that will run at that resolution, which I assume is what you meant. Other 360 titles will run at their original resolution.
 

spookyghost

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,550
Sorry if it's been covered but did they not test any games with dynamic resolution to see if that was effected or did I miss it?
 
OP
OP
Theorry

Theorry

Member
Oct 27, 2017
60,968
You corrected them and they aren't wrong. The entire point of smart delivery is that it is the "same game" no matter what platform, just the best it can be. Microsoft want it to be a single SKU that you view as one game on whatever device you own. You've go the same acheivements list, the same saves, play with the same people. That kind of thing, so they're not really wrong. To the consumer it is supposed to appear as one version, and appear as if the box you buy determines the experience you get, purely.

Your correction to what it is is like, the least exciting aspect of it that isn't even an innovation. Cross buy already exists.

It's a weird semantic conversation though. But the way that poster was using it, they were confused why series S wouldn't use the best version it possibly could. Unfortunately it won't be playing Xbox One games with the One X patches, even though it probably could with some patching to address the memory constraints. And if a given game was smart delivery it would do that, but that's not the case with normal BC Xbox One games. <-- this is the information they weren't understanding.
But smart delivery isnt for BC games? So no idea why that is even brought up. And Series is S is kinda playing the best version it can. As it cant do alot of One X versions because of the 4K

Its simple in the end.

Series S replaces the One S and brings your One S games forward.
Series X replaces the One X and brings One X games forward.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
But smart delivery isnt for BC games? So no idea why that is even brought up.

That's what the person didn't understand.

And Series is S is kinda playing the best version it can.

It isn't. The Series S could totally play the X enhanced patch of a lot of games. But that would require some tweaking. For example, I guarantee it would run the 1080p60 mode of Jedi Fallen Order just fine. But because it's using the One S version, it's stuck at 720p30. But I guarantee you it could play that 1080p60 one with no patching other than enabling it.

It's playing the version it is allowed to play, because by and large, as you say, the Series S replaces the one S. But it absolutely could do plenty of xbox one x enhanced games if allowed. It's just that it probably can't do a lot of them due to the smaller and slower RAM than One X, so it won't be doing that.
 

SAB-CA

Member
Nov 30, 2017
1,159
Don't get me wrong, it's great that all that's there day one. I just already played those games, and while it's a great feature to have, it's not what I'm looking for as the most exciting aspect of this machine. I'd love to see analysis of an actual next-gen game, a demo, something from the Series X that'll make me go wow. At the moment, we're severely lacking in that- and while BC is great, I see it as gravy, not the thing that makes me, personally, want the console. I wanna see how AC Valhalla runs on this thing in a real world setting. I wanna see how The Medium looks, I want an in-depth look into the demo for Halo Infinite. Looks at Gears 5 or FH4's next-gen patches. SOMETHING that shows off the new console.

This isn't it. I'm just waiting for the moment MS finally shows us what's the best thing this console can push out at launch. What THE must-have experience will be. Original Xbox had Halo, Xbox 360 had COD2 or Kameo, Xbox One had Ryse... and even if Series X doesn't have Halo at launch, why not show us a work in progress? Or a next-gen game running on it? We've waited long enough.
Yeah, I would have agreed more on the older, "that's all they're really good for" older consoles. But I definitely love how much these new ones do. It makes the monetary investment seem more worthwhile.

Since they legit sent press actual systems, I'd say we're just a week or 2 away from more "real" next gen games in press hands. I don't think that's too bad. A consumer might wanna see "BEST IMMEDIATELY NOW!", but they're explaining a complicated piece of tech in waves. And likely showing what they have more easy control over, first.

The backlash people gave to nearly every next gen game that's not Ratchet and Clank definitely could have them holding onto optimizing the full next gen showing for as long as possible. The people of this hobby have taken joy in making the most negative takes the fastest they can in order to get meme-level significance, so things can't just be shown at first convenience. You see more trolling of Halo Infinite's gameplay than anything positive. I'd feel we deserve to be treated in certain ways SO MUCH MORE if a large sect of the armature and even professional media weren't just looking for any small reason to bring things down...

Can we stop for a moment and complain about how bad Microsoft is at naming their consoles? "Xbox One X" and "Xbox Series X". I am on this forum and even I haded to rethink which one is which when I saw the screenshot.

... Who needs to stop for this? In a world where the layman's plans for healthcare, phone services, membership at groceries and gas stations, and all are named with SNES console-like "Super Plus!" or " _____phone X2" descriptors, I think this is much less an issue. Oddly enough, I probably hate the straight number descriptors more, because that to me says "Box2 stuff works on Box3", just like the apps of a phone #10 work on a phone #12. Only do that if you're going to honor the predecessors straight out. When PS3 could play PS1, 2, 3, Vita, and PlayStation portable full / minis, the number branding made sense... now they separate so much, they might as well call it "PS Beyond" or "PS Next".

But anyway, once you get use to "series", its old hat. That take less than 10 minutes of focus. Even when my parents in the 80s and 90s called everything "Nintendo", they eventually understood the differences. Pretend "Series" is "Super", and the problem is solved.
 
OP
OP
Theorry

Theorry

Member
Oct 27, 2017
60,968
That's what the person didn't understand.



It isn't. The Series S could totally play the X enhanced patch of a lot of games. But that would require some tweaking. For example, I guarantee it would run the 1080p60 mode of Jedi Fallen Order just fine. But because it's using the One S version, it's stuck at 720p30. But I guarantee you it could play that 1080p60 one with no patching other than enabling it.

It's playing the version it is allowed to play, because by and large, as you say, the Series S replaces the one S. But it absolutely could do plenty of xbox one x enhanced games if allowed. It's just that it probably can't do a lot of them due to the smaller and slower RAM than One X, so it won't be doing that.
Thats why i said "kinda" Its abit in the middle of One X and S really for BC in broad term.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
Thats why i said "kinda" Its abit in the middle of One X and S really for BC in broad term.

I mean it completely depends on what it's doing. It's not doing the "best" version it can. It's just across the board doing the Xbox One base version, which will many times not be the best version it could be doing.

This is a contrast to, not similar to, Smart Delivery, which involves games designed to run specifically for all xbox consoles they are on, individually. There's no kinda. It's just not even like, in that ballpark. Series S will run xbox one s games, better. Not "the best version" of them. Technically it is universally running the worst version of all xbox one games, just ...better.
 

Robin64

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,623
England
It isn't. The Series S could totally play the X enhanced patch of a lot of games. But that would require some tweaking. For example, I guarantee it would run the 1080p60 mode of Jedi Fallen Order just fine. But because it's using the One S version, it's stuck at 720p30. But I guarantee you it could play that 1080p60 one with no patching other than enabling it.

Though if they add that doubling FPS patch, we'd get a 720p60 version.

I guess the question is, how many games will get that patch.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...is-how-xbox-series-s-back-compat-really-works

"We designed the Series S to enhance the Xbox One S games in a way that the Xbox One X can't do," system architect Andrew Goossen tells us. "We made it easy for existing Xbox One S games to be updated to run with double the frame-rate when played on Series S as well. When games are updated, existing games can query to determine whether they're running on the new console. And in terms of the performance, the Series S provides well over double the effective CPU and GPU performance over the Xbox One, making it pretty straightforward for the games to do this. And in fact, the Series S GPU runs the Xbox One S games with better performance than the Xbox One X."

"There's no real perf tuning necessary when you do this, and so often it's just as easy as changing three lines of code, and then the game works." Goossen adds. "Even when it's not that easy, the fixes are still pretty minor. We had one triple-A title where doubling the frame-rate really worked perfectly, except that the crowd animation was twice as fast as normal. And so, those sorts of fixes are typically very, very easy for developers to go fix. We're working with game developers and publishers to update [their titles]. It'll basically be select games that run at a doubled frame-rate on the Series S."
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
Though if they add that doubling FPS patch, we'd get a 720p60 version.

I guess the question is, how many games will get that patch.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...is-how-xbox-series-s-back-compat-really-works

Right. It's one thing Microsoft have been very quiet on.

Even still, 720p60 is absolutely not the best version of that game the Series S could run, even if we are purely talking about unmodified BC games. If Microsoft wanted to tell the Series S to install and use the X version, it absolutely could run the game at 1080p60. They chose not to do this for the simple logistical reason of too man Xbox One X games that WOULDN'T run likely due to RAM limitations. I'm sure for example Red Dead Redemption 2 would not do so hot on Series S due to how demanding it is at full 4K. So it is best for Microsoft here to make a universal decision for Series S to run the base versions of all xbox one games.
 

Wil348

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,213
This could be misunderstood, because it sounds like all 360 games will run at 1440p on Series S and it's only those that are One X enhanced, that will run at that resolution, which I assume is what you meant. Other 360 titles will run at their original resolution.

Yeah that's what I meant, 360 games that are XB1X enhanced will run at 1440p. Others at original res with potential performance boots (GTA IV, for example).
 

p3n

Member
Oct 28, 2017
650
That was not my takeaway at all for monhun watching the video haha. It skews very heavily towards 60 on the 1800p resolution mode (which Richard was using for the comparison), with some fluctuation between the 55-60 range. I'm not quite sure where you get 40 on average and freezing? And the performance mode at 1080p is locked 60 (not in the video but easy to infer and the ars technica stuff confirmed). You didn't look at the XoX performance did you lol

No one said 40 average. Just that it still drops into the 40s. It doesn't run as well as it should considering the power difference. I was expecting locked 60 because locked 60 is very easy to achieve on the less optimized PC version (DX11). That is with much higher settings on hardware that some people in here think is less powerfull than the XSX.
unknown.png
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,179
No one said 40 average. Just that it still drops into the 40s. It doesn't run as well as it should considering the power difference. I was expecting locked 60 because locked 60 is very easy to achieve on the less optimized PC version (DX11). That is with much higher settings on hardware that some people in here think is less powerfull than the XSX.
unknown.png

Right no one said on average but you did say the 40s regularly and with freezing and ill just point straight back to my previous post and say that's not at all what I got from viewing the video. Also it does lock to 60 in performance mode, which it did not do on the XoX. It may not reach what you expected but I also do not believe it performs as you've stated either, going by DF and the Ars piece.

Just to go further, I actually think the screen grab you've chosen makes for an extremely compelling case for the hardware, it's literally double the performance at 1800p. Given that's the worst case scenario and I think during a cutscene, that's pretty awesome. Really looking forward to playing it on there
 
Last edited:

Wetalo

Member
Feb 9, 2018
724
If someone hasn't "gotten around to" a title released 8 months ago for a console they own, that implies they had very little interest in the game in the first place, and that cannot be simultaneously true with being super hyped about being able to play it at a higher framerate in the future
This is outright wrong. I'm currently playing through Call of Duty Modern Warfare 3, a PS3 game I've owned since 2011 and never played. I have a huge collection of PS3 games I've never played, and God knows how many on PC. People don't play every game under the sun on release day.
 

Andromeda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,844
I have a feeling the PS5 isn't going to boost games as well as the Series X. Sony hasn't talked about it for a reason. It will be like boost mode on the Pro. Small improvements but nothing to shout about.
On the contrary. On Pro we actually saw linear improvements compared to the clocks (CPU and GPU) in boost mode. For instance AC Unity is bottlenecked by the CPU and the boosted game on Pro easily got a 30% framerate improvement.

Killzone SF and Until Dawn, both games being GPU limited mostly got a ~15% framerate improvement on Pro (it was the first things DF learned about Pro boost mode). Again, linear increase compared to the 14% GPU clock increase.

Having a virtually hardware BC like on Pro and PS5 has its disavantages, like the boosted games could only use half of the CUs if not patched. But it has its advantages like linear improvement with CPU and GPU clocks (bandwidth has doubled on PS5 so that won't bottleneck much the games).

Also the PS5 has the advantage of having the same number of CUs than Pro, no need to patch the games to use some unused CUs. Everything should logically run just the same, except at higher frequency (because the hardware BC means no APIs layers that could cause bottlenecks like what is obviously happening on XSX emulation, games are often not running twice faster than their XBX versions).

Besides, many games on Pro have a reduced resolution compared to XBX. Taking everything into account I am expecting better BC performance on PS5 in the majority of games.
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
Also the PS5 has the advantage of having the same number of CUs than Pro, no need to patch the games to use some unused CUs. Everything should logically run just the same, except at higher frequency (because the hardware BC means no APIs layers that could cause bottlenecks like what is obviously happening on XSX emulation, games are often not running twice faster than their XBX versions).
Microsoft doesn't need to patch the games either and Xbox One games aren't emulated on Xbox Series X.
Besides, many games on Pro have a reduced resolution compared to XBX. Taking everything into account I am expecting better BC performance on PS5 in the majority of games.
We shall see, but I think having most games running at 1440p on Pro will help and the gulf between Pro/PS5 is bigger than Xbox One X and XsX, which should help. Thus I can see you being correct with your prediction.
 

Gdourado

Member
Oct 1, 2018
139
Lisbon, Portugal
Am I the only one you was disappointed by this analysis?
I was very hyped for the Series X.
I have one pre-ordered from the first day that pre-orders opened.
But yet, I found this video pretty underwhelming.

Even taking what DF said in the public announcement that it is just a gcn 12 tflop console with zen 2 cores...
If a game on jaguar cores and 6 tflops gcn can do 30-40 FPS, it can't lock to 60 FPS with 4x the cpu power and 2x the brute force gpu power???

take PC for example...
If you have let's say an RX 570 and a 2500k, and a game does 30-40 FPS and you upgrade to let's say a 10600 and a 5700xt, the game will go to 60 FPS locked easy on the same graphical settings.
You don't need patches from the developer or tweaks.
It just works like that.
so I just find this underwhelming...
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,402
If someone hasn't "gotten around to" a title released 8 months ago for a console they own, that implies they had very little interest in the game in the first place, and that cannot be simultaneously true with being super hyped about being able to play it at a higher framerate in the future

This is silly.

The last few years I've played Mirror's Edge, Dead Space, Bayonetta, Dante's Inferno, Vanquish, and most recently Arkham Origins through either my backlog, gamepass, gwg, or finding old copies. Currently playing through Dark Souls remastered (first time, bought on sale), RE7 (first time, bought on sale), just bought a used flight stick for/with Ace Combat 7 and Elite Dangerous, and hunted down physical copies of Assassin's Creed 2, Assassin's Creed Brotherhood, and Final Fantasy XIII.

Yes, I occasionally buy games that are brand new. This fall I'm buying Cyberpunk and maybe Disco Elysium if it's announced for console. Everything else will have to wait. I've found it rarely worth it to ride hype cycles, as I end up with full price games languishing on my shelf that didn't grab me right away (RDR2, KH3 are recent examples).

BC done well lets me play at my own pace *for years* without having mountains of consoles stacking up my house. I gave away my OG Xbox years ago, just gave away my OG 360 a few months ago.

If I get a PS5, one of the more appealing aspects will be to play through all the PS4 games I missed at lower prices with better performance.
 

etta

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,512
Am I the only one you was disappointed by this analysis?
I was very hyped for the Series X.
I have one pre-ordered from the first day that pre-orders opened.
But yet, I found this video pretty underwhelming.

Even taking what DF said in the public announcement that it is just a gcn 12 tflop console with zen 2 cores...
If a game on jaguar cores and 6 tflops gcn can do 30-40 FPS, it can't lock to 60 FPS with 4x the cpu power and 2x the brute force gpu power???

take PC for example...
If you have let's say an RX 570 and a 2500k, and a game does 30-40 FPS and you upgrade to let's say a 10600 and a 5700xt, the game will go to 60 FPS locked easy on the same graphical settings.
You don't need patches from the developer or tweaks.
It just works like that.
so I just find this underwhelming...
Consoles are PCs.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,037
yea, this is the console to have if you have any backlog from current gen whatsoever.

especially when you consider how mediocre launch lineup exclusives will be. and you can get a lot of these current-gen games for dirt cheap.

this is amazing.

if you have any kind of current gen backlog then you're kinda tied in to the platform that backlog is on. I hope/expect similar from Sony here - it's the extra stuff where MS will add value. The auto HDR, the select titles being pushed even more that Richard mentions
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,930
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
Also the PS5 has the advantage of having the same number of CUs than Pro, no need to patch the games to use some unused CUs. Everything should logically run just the same, except at higher frequency (because the hardware BC means no APIs layers that could cause bottlenecks like what is obviously happening on XSX emulation, games are often not running twice faster than their XBX versions).
This speculation is rather unfounded and there is no evidence of the "extra API" layer stealing away GPU performance or something. Using an educated guess based on known information lets us deduce that a bandwidth limited scene or area of a game or entire game would not run at 2x on XSX because bandwidth did not double between Xbox One X and Xbox Series X. Even if a GPU has 2x compute, if the scene is limited by another factor like memory bandwidth, then the 2x compute will not come to bare as 2x nominal performance in framerate. Rich says as much in this video.
 

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
If someone hasn't "gotten around to" a title released 8 months ago for a console they own, that implies they had very little interest in the game in the first place, and that cannot be simultaneously true with being super hyped about being able to play it at a higher framerate in the future

When I read it first, I thought you said 8 years. And I was nodding along. And then I saw 8 months?!!

8 months? Not sure if you realize this, but many of us have busy lives outside gaming.

heck, I haven't touched Gears 5. Excited to play it on XSX down the line.
 

El meso

Member
Oct 27, 2017
525
This speculation is rather unfounded and there is no evidence of the "extra API" layer stealing away GPU performance or something. Using an educated guess based on known information lets us deduce that a bandwidth limited scene or area of a game or entire game would not run at 2x on XSX because bandwidth did not double between Xbox One X and Xbox Series X. Even if a GPU has 2x compute, if the scene is limited by another factor like memory bandwidth, then the 2x compute will not come to bare as 2x nominal performance in framerate. Rich says as much in this video.

if the game uses more than 10GB on one x could it be that the séries X is Running The memory at 336gb instead of 560gb to utilize the slower 6GB part?
 

KORNdog

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
8,001
i doubt i'll use BC since i'm not really one of those people who replay game. but, this is basically what i expected in games that offered unlocked framerates and dynamic resolutions.
 

Shadow Dancer

Prophet of Regret
Member
Jul 22, 2019
1,990
Great results so far.

Also I really hope the BC team keeps enhancing more X360 games (and Xbox One games now) for Xbox Series consoles.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,621
No one said 40 average. Just that it still drops into the 40s. It doesn't run as well as it should considering the power difference. I was expecting locked 60 because locked 60 is very easy to achieve on the less optimized PC version (DX11). That is with much higher settings on hardware that some people in here think is less powerfull than the XSX.
unknown.png
MHW on PC is not really easy to achieve a locked 60 in at 1800P, you can barely do 1440P locked 60 with a 1080Ti which is in the same ballpark as 2080 (which is where Series X should sit in terms of raster performance).
 

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
I just checked, and all I see is the EA Play discount to purchase it. I only see the Battlefront games on the list. Did they say it was coming soon?

damn. You're right. Usually the games show up like 6- 9 months post release, so I assumed it'd be there. This is an outlier

I'd still hold off buying it, though. It's bound to show up there any moment.
 

Xx 720

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,920
What they are getting with just a boost mode is amazing, can only imagine if they actually make specific patches. Also, bear in mind games like Assassin's Creed, Monster Hunter etc., these games are hard to hit locked 60 even on PC, they aren't optimized for it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,381
damn. You're right. Usually the games show up like 6- 9 months post release, so I assumed it'd be there. This is an outlier

I'd still hold off buying it, though. It's bound to show up there any moment.
CDkeys.com has Star Wars: Jedi Fallen deluxe edition for 34.38 bucks CAD right now (I bought it last week). After watching the DF video, feels like every One S load time (esp Fallen Jedi) is way too long now.
 
OP
OP
Theorry

Theorry

Member
Oct 27, 2017
60,968
If someone hasn't "gotten around to" a title released 8 months ago for a console they own, that implies they had very little interest in the game in the first place, and that cannot be simultaneously true with being super hyped about being able to play it at a higher framerate in the future
There is something now called "waiting for gamepass"
I did with Doom. I really like Doom. But always knew Eternal would come to gamepass. Like Doom 2016. Eve tho i really have liked to play day one. I wont be a thief of my own wallet.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
No one said 40 average. Just that it still drops into the 40s. It doesn't run as well as it should considering the power difference. I was expecting locked 60 because locked 60 is very easy to achieve on the less optimized PC version (DX11). That is with much higher settings on hardware that some people in here think is less powerfull than the XSX.
unknown.png
The thing is that not all games can easily scale, especially when scalability is not designed for a specific version. IIRC it's still very hard to get 60 fps on Assassin's Creed games, even on PC.
So no matter how much hardware you throw at the code, it doesn't matter because the code is not prepared for more hardware. Look at Blighttown (again a From game...) which had even bad performance on X1X in that area.
 

Flik

Member
Feb 12, 2020
39
If someone hasn't "gotten around to" a title released 8 months ago for a console they own, that implies they had very little interest in the game in the first place, and that cannot be simultaneously true with being super hyped about being able to play it at a higher framerate in the future
Really? Not everyone buys games on day one. I don't have FOMO and I bought only one game at launch price this gen