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Digital foundry: Wolfenstein Youngblood - Ray Tracing/VRS/DLSS in id Tech 6 - A Next-Gen Features Showcase?

Muhammad

Member
Mar 6, 2018
187
RTX in this title is sensational, reflections are very strong and a lot to the gunfights.
Also the DLSS is top notch quality here.

Monster Zero said:
Funny the youtube channels that made videos condemning DLSS don't make any videos praising it.
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Indeed, funny they only cared about the first two games, since then we've had several massively better RTX and DLSS implementations, but they don't seem to care.
 
Nooblet

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,632
HommePomme said:
When he's doing the comparison of DLSS at 10:40, they all have this weird artifact on the building to the left as the camera moves forward. Is that related to DLSS? So many of the comparisons focus on still image quality but it makes sense that using a reconstruction technique you'd see some artifacts in motion.
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That seems like an object/geometry occlusion issue.
Regardless, even the best reconstruction will have some artifacts when you try to look for absolute difference while trying to break the scene by moving quickly, but that's irrelevant as when in motion half your screen is blurry regardless and on top of that your focus is on the centre of the screen where the reticule is. Not to mention shaders almost never run at native resolution anyway, so even when playing at "real" or "native" resolution your image isn't quite "real 4K"...since the native 4K of a game will be worse than a native 4K of a movie for example in terms of sharpness.

What matters is if there is a perceivable difference in play be it via the overall image becoming softer or via clearly noticeable artifacting on moving objects specifically caused due to reconstruction, like some of the earlier games with reconstruction had, but we have some top quality CBR implementations like in Death Stranding and Horizon today where the image is as sharp as native.
 
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Deleted member 11276

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3,223
DLSS changed so much, I'm glad they cover this now.

It's worth noting (maybe they covered this, I will watch the video as soon as possible) that when you game on a regular RTX 2060, you have to set texture quality to high because this game just eats VRAM, for whatever reason and it's of course even worse with RT. Then it also runs great on a regular RTX 2060.

Overall, good optimization.
 
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Heyasuki

Heyasuki

Member
Nov 28, 2017
58
I've been using DLSS + RT in Shadow of the Tomb Raider and it's crazy what that combo can do! My computer is less hot than the previous game.
 

Muhammad

Member
Mar 6, 2018
187
Powerofthecloud said:
I don't think as anything to do with necessarily the quality of it. Image sharpening is legitimately good stuff. My issue with it has been that it's almost been a year and a half and they're just a handful of games that support it. The rollout press conference Jensen stated that it was very easly implemented which seems to be contrary to what's happened due to the limited amount of releases that support it.
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I say more than a handful ..

Activated RTX titles:

Battlefield V
Metro Exodus
Shadow Of Tomb Raider
Control
Call Of Duty Modern Warfare
Quake 2
Deliver Us The Moon
Wolfesntein Youngblood

Activated DLSS titles:

Battlefield V
Metro Exodus
Shadow Of Tomb Raider
Deliver Us The Moon
Wolfesntein Youngblood
Control
Anthem
Monster Hunter World
Final Fantasy 15
 
KKRT

KKRT

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,544
dgrdsv said:
Nobody is stopping anyone from making their own DLSS alternative. DirectML is available for almost a year now.

This reminds me of all the talk of how great it would be to have in-house implementations of physics instead of that proprietary GPU PhysX. Well, it's basically dead now and we have about zero of "in house" implementations due to most devs not having the resources and/or motivation to pull it off. Same is likely true for something like DLSS, at least for now.
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I know, thats why i'm waiting for it or Nvidia to make their tech open.
 

Deleted member 11276

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3,223
Apharmd said:
Oof that's a massive performance hit.
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That's true, it's strange considering RT reflections only take a hit of 25% in Control, but here the FPS tanks 50%. Maybe they spend less time optimizing RT because Wolfenstein already is very well optimized and runs at a high framerate already.

I wonder if DXR 1.1 can boost RT performance further.
 
pj-

pj-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,659
Muhammad said:
I say more than a handful ..

Activated RTX titles:

Battlefield V
Metro Exodus
Shadow Of Tomb Raider
Control
Call Of Duty Modern Warfare
Quake 2
Deliver Us The Moon
Wolfesntein Youngblood

Activated DLSS titles:

Battlefield V
Metro Exodus
Shadow Of Tomb Raider
Deliver Us The Moon
Wolfesntein Youngblood
Control
Anthem
Monster Hunter World
Final Fantasy 15
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More than 5 less than 10 is almost exactly what I picture as a handful
 
dgrdsv

dgrdsv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,879
KKRT said:
I know, thats why i'm waiting for it or Nvidia to make their tech open.
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How exactly would NV make this tech "open"? Gift their GPU training farm to every developer who wants to try their hand in this?

People really underestimate the amount of effort in both time and money NV is putting into these things.

dampflokfreund said:
I wonder if DXR 1.1 can boost RT performance further.
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Doubtful as 1.1 is a rather minor optimization of 1.0 fully compatible with Turing h/w and I think that the h/w is the narrowest part right now, not the API.
 

Deleted member 4970

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Oct 25, 2017
12,240
Wow, NVIDIA and devs have been killing it with DLSS lately

I hope rendering techniques like it and checkerboarding really take off next-gen and become as common as TAA
 
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Philippo

Philippo

Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
7,913
Wouldn't be surprised if Cerny and Sony came up with some similar technique as they spearheded 4K CB in 2016.
 
Soap

Soap

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,186
I don't think ray tracing looks good enough in those examples to justify the god hit. I suppose we will see better usage of the technique when developers get used to it
 

Deleted member 11276

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Muhammad said:
Every engine deals with ray tracing differently, some engines are more suited to it than others, Northlight was specifically designed with RT in mind.
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I mean that's true, but it's really strange that the performance difference is that dramatic.

Anyway, as more and more titles will use RT, devs will get better at RT and the performance impact will get less. I'm pretty certain of that.

dgrdsv said:
Doubtful as 1.1 is a rather minor optimization of 1.0 fully compatible with Turing h/w and I think that the h/w is the narrowest part right now, not the API.
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I don't think it's minor. Lots of features devs have been asking for, like inline Raytracing. I think there's still a lot to optimize on the software side. Combining that with Mesh Shaders would lead to interesting things for sure!

Ampere will certainly boost RT capabilities, but I would not expect miracles.
 

Muhammad

Member
Mar 6, 2018
187
Soap said:
I don't think ray tracing looks good enough in those examples to justify the god hit. I suppose we will see better usage of the technique when developers get used to it
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The video is short on reflection comparisons, but I assure you, they are just as good as the ones in Control, especially in those levels with laboratory or industrial settings ..
 
jwhit28

jwhit28

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,050
Philippo said:
Wouldn't be surprised if Cerny and Sony came up with some similar technique as they spearheded 4K CB in 2016.
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AMD is pushing FidelityFX which accomplishes a lot of the same things. DLSS and FidelityFX are both in MHW now but I haven't seen a comparison video. Both were also in F1 2019 but that game had a really bad implementation of DLSS.
 
gabdeg

gabdeg

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,962
🐝
Nice video. I've been pretty impressed with the implementation as well as performance. Shame the game is really not good, so I was kinda done with it a couple of hours in. I hope this implementation makes it into Doom Eternal though.

You can actually turn off (or suppress) raytracing in this game via the console command "r_suppressraytracing". I made a video showing off some on/off comparisons.



Running at 4K with DLSS set to quality mode.

Also someone in the comments pointed out that the grass doesn't sway in the reflections. I think we already saw this limitation in another game and its also present here.
 
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Monster Zero

Monster Zero

Member
Nov 5, 2017
5,612
Southern California
Soap said:
I don't think ray tracing looks good enough in those examples to justify the god hit. I suppose we will see better usage of the technique when developers get used to it
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dying-light-2-rtx.jpg


I'm waiting for this release. There is going to be accusations of Techland dumbing down their game just like Metro.
 
KKRT

KKRT

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,544
dgrdsv said:
How exactly would NV make this tech "open"? Gift their GPU training farm to every developer who wants to try their hand in this?

People really underestimate the amount of effort in both time and money NV is putting into these things.
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Open their ML models and algorithm to public or make a tool that Nvidia cards exclusive.
I understand that they put tons of money into this, but it also cost them money now, as they need to use their farms to tech DLSS on new games.
If they'll want to popularize DLSS, they need to come with some more open solution that they current have to implement it in games.
 

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Monster Zero said:
dying-light-2-rtx.jpg


I'm waiting for this release. There is going to be accusations of Techland dumbing down their game just like Metro.
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Damn. I still think RT GI is the best use case for raytracing.

KKRT said:
Open their ML models and algorithm to public or make a tool that Nvidia cards exclusive.
I understand that they put tons of money into this, but it also cost them money now, as they need to use their farms to tech DLSS on new games.
If they'll want to popularize DLSS, they need to come with some more open solution that they current have to implement it in games.
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I mean that would be cool, but DLSS would cost a lot of performance on other graphics cards, because they don't have AI accelerators. I don't think it's worth it. The shader cores would have to do the inference.
 
Black_Stride

Black_Stride

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
7,388
Wait the DLSS almost looks better than Native 4K?
WTF!
DLSS has really come a long way huh......I need a damn RTX30 series ASAP the 20s arent enough of an upgrade for me.

I hope AMD has a counter to this because at this rate Nvidia at 2060 level is going to be killing them all the way to the bank.
 

Gitaroo

Member
Nov 3, 2017
7,996
Did Alex commons on wheather or not dlss is HW base or a SW filter like control? What's the difference between performance and quality anyway. My 2080 can't lock 60fps in quality mode. Even performance mode it drop a bit in some area.
 

Gitaroo

Member
Nov 3, 2017
7,996
KKRT said:
The biggest problem with DLSS implementation is that devs need to submit their games to Nvidia for their algorithm to learn it and then Nvidia needs to update drivers and game needs to be updated too.
We need inhouse implementation of this in most popular engines, then the support will skyrocket.
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I thought it is just some native 4k pics of their games is all they need.
 
bobeth

bobeth

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,302
Great showing for DLSS, I just hope more games would support it. I also love the implementation in Deliver us the moon, it made the game playable at high framerate with RT on, and good image quality.
 

Muhammad

Member
Mar 6, 2018
187
Gitaroo said:
Did Alex commons on wheather or not dlss is HW base or a SW filter like control? What's the difference between performance and quality anyway. My 2080 can't lock 60fps in quality mode. Even performance mode it drop a bit in some area.
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It's hardware, NVIDIA stated that in their Deliver Us The Moon post.
dampflokfreund said:
I mean that would be cool, but DLSS would cost a lot of performance on other graphics cards, because they don't have AI accelerators. I don't think it's worth it. The shader cores would have to do the inference.
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Indeed.
 
zombiejames

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,928
Why isn't DLSS used by more games? It makes zero sense to run any game at native 4K if DLSS can produce image quality like that and be more performant on top of that.
 
ThereAreFourNaan

ThereAreFourNaan

Member
Nov 8, 2017
13,109
Dictator

Thanks for the video. One question about res scale though - is "50% res scale" in the menu actually 50% on each axis, or 50% of pixel count? Because that might go a long way to explain what's going on in that comparison with it. As far as I know it's not mentioned explicitly in-game which it is.
 
Reinhard

Reinhard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,603
DLSS has come a long way. It was complete crap and a waste of adding Tensor cores that increased the cost of the GPU for the first year of the 2000 series, but Control and Youngblood now show that it can be done well. But that is two games out of how many so it can't be the easiest thing to implement well.
 
Dictator

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,931
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
ThereAreFourNaan said:
Dictator

Thanks for the video. One question about res scale though - is "50% res scale" in the menu actually 50% on each axis, or 50% of pixel count? Because that might go a long way to explain what's going on in that comparison with it. As far as I know it's not mentioned explicitly in-game which it is.
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In this game it is the axis! I asked and also counted the pixels :)
 
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