So it's a stronger signal...that introduces even more input lag than Bluetooth. Can you back this up with any data?
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Digital Foundry | Watch Dogs Legion - Xbox Series X/S Ray Tracing vs PC RTX - Features, Quality, Performance + More
- Thread starter Uzupedro
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So it's a stronger signal...that introduces even more input lag than Bluetooth. Can you back this up with any data?
The 2060S is not a 7.18 Tflop GPU though. It's probably around 8 Tflops. Whenever you see a core clock speed for any Nvidia GPU you can add at minimum another 10%, depending on the quality of the cooler. All Nvidia cards boost higher than what Nvidia advertises based on power limit & temperature. For some reason Nvidia always understates how much their stock cards boost, unlike AMD where their cards might not even hit the max boost clocks.
Good video. I don't have much interest in playing through the game (I don't have time for open world games right now), but it looks good. Really considering buying it just to check out as a tech showcase for Series X.
Im talking about USB connection specifically - this thing is from early 2018. MS stating several times they improved their signal in XSX and new controllers.
The current gen example at 5:00 is nuts, are there any other games that look like that? I know BotW does something similar but the surfaces aren't usually big and smooth enough to show it off like that.
When AMD's version of DLSS comes out, that will be a big leap for the consoles.
Looking forward to it.
Looking forward to it.
Looks like what we expected, the console AMD ray tracing performance is currently not up to par with nvidia, but sort 'ok'. It will be cool to see what kind of clever ideas devs come up with the tech - however I still don't think it's worth it most cases to sacrifice 60fp or high resolution for some enhanced effects; at least until those effects mature enough that it makes more obvious of a difference - Instead of 'this one puddle looks cool' or 'the stairs have a slight reflective property that looks more realistic'. I had tried control on a 2080ti earlier with dlss2.0 and still wasn't that impressed, and spiderman had me switching to performance mode rather quickly after bouncing between the two.
I think there's more gains to be had investing in ever improving character realism in animations and details over this and putting the resources into that, though perhaps they can enhance material realism with some new lighting touches with rt. I'm sure we'll see a point in the next decade though when raytracing become less expensive enough that it becomes a must on all pc titles.
I think there's more gains to be had investing in ever improving character realism in animations and details over this and putting the resources into that, though perhaps they can enhance material realism with some new lighting touches with rt. I'm sure we'll see a point in the next decade though when raytracing become less expensive enough that it becomes a must on all pc titles.
Depends of what engine for example Unreal Engine 5 don't use raytracing at all. Virtualised geometry and RT is not a good mix probably.
And Alex was right on the mark about 2060 super comparable RT performances when he discussed RT in previous videos. I remember a lot of backlashes from the video.
Seems like AMD's hybrid RT implementation is being hit even harder than Turing 's first gen RT cores. I mean think about that for a second.. the road was paved already..
Seems like AMD's hybrid RT implementation is being hit even harder than Turing 's first gen RT cores. I mean think about that for a second.. the road was paved already..
Im talking about USB connection specifically - this thing is from early 2018. MS stating several times they improved their signal in XSX and new controllers.
That has nothing to do with what I quoted. You specifically said the dongle has even more input lag than the same controller connected via bluetooth on the PC. What is the basis for this belief?
Secondly, the reduced latency is coming to older Xbox One controllers via a firmware update. So you know for sure that this latency reducution will require a new dongle? You're throwing out a lot of suppositions and you don't even seem to know what you're arguing at this point.
A good, informative video. This is a launch title, so I would expect that ray tracing will only get better over time as game engines are optimized to work on the next-gen consoles. Next-gen consoles will need a DLSS type of upscaling solution to get past the 30fps barrier.
Yep, pretty much this, and it needs to happen as I would love to have 60fps with RT in games.
Many games are already doing forms of upscaling though - such as Valhalla and Demon Souls in performance mode which are using temporal reconstruction. It's not DLSS quality of course, but it's pretty decent.
Interesting video. So 2060-levels of performance... isn't that what Alex has been saying all along?
Also, how/who do we push to get a console-equivalent graphics setting on PC? I see more and more devs have improve their graphics settings menus, benchmarks, etc., so hopefully this is the next step. This isn't the first time I've heard that consoles are running lower-than-minimum settings, that aren't explicitly exposed to PC users.
Also, how/who do we push to get a console-equivalent graphics setting on PC? I see more and more devs have improve their graphics settings menus, benchmarks, etc., so hopefully this is the next step. This isn't the first time I've heard that consoles are running lower-than-minimum settings, that aren't explicitly exposed to PC users.
Great video!
One other thing to point out in the hardware differences is that the RTX 2060 Super has 34 independent RT cores whereas the XSX GPU has 52 RT accelerators with each embedded into a compute unit.
This bodes well for raytracing optimizations that could make their way onto PC as we move through this generation.
Augh can't wait for the rest of my PC parts to come in..... My 3090 is ready...
One other thing to point out in the hardware differences is that the RTX 2060 Super has 34 independent RT cores whereas the XSX GPU has 52 RT accelerators with each embedded into a compute unit.
This bodes well for raytracing optimizations that could make their way onto PC as we move through this generation.
Augh can't wait for the rest of my PC parts to come in..... My 3090 is ready...
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On a side note, these performance comparisons with a 2060 Super actually bode quite well for the prospects of RT on the eventual Switch 2. Might actually be comparable in terms of RT performance with Series X/PS5 after all if Nvidia's lower end 1st gen RT cards are trading blows with the new consoles!
I would have been surprised if it were any other way than this for RT performance, but it's good to have the analysis. It was fun to be able to look into the differences myself this week too.
Not even trading blows. The 2060S is just superior for raytracing compared to the XSX GPU.
But I think it is important to keep in mind that raytracing effects do take a hit on rasterization performance, as there is additional shading needed to make the raytracing work.
But I do see your point. Nintendo could get away with having fewer, newer RT cores on their SOC.
I pointed out in my previous post the numbers of RT cores/accelerators for the relevant GPUs:
XSX: 52
2060S: 34
3060: 30
Notice how the 3060 has fewer RT cores than the 2060S, but we know that these newer RT cores perform much better than the older ones on the 2000 series, so we shall see how these differences play out in the coming years, and of course, on the switch2 (if it would even have RT cores). This also makes me wonder how the raytracing performance scales on the AMD GPUs. Makes for an interesting comparison between the RTX 3000 GPUs and the Radeon 6000 GPUs, as the raytracing element adds another layer of information to compare. Exciting times...
Did my best to imitate the settings posted in the Video:
Getting 45-55 FPS at native 4k on my 2080Ti (OC)
And 55-70 FPS at 1440
\Documents\My Games\Watch Dogs Legion\WD3_GamerProfile.xml
Don't forget to set to "Read Only"
Don't forget to set to "Read Only"
Code:
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HDR="1"
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DynamicResolutionMinUpscalingFactor="0.6666666666666666"
DynamicResolutionMaxUpscalingFactor="1"
DynamicResolutionUpscalingSteps="14"
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ExtendDrawDistance="1"
DepthOfField="1"
MotionBlur="1"
Bloom="1"
BloomReference="0"
OptimizedDepthOfField="2"
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MoonLighting="1"
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IngameMiniMapAA="0"
IngameMiniMapAO="0"
VolatileTextureSize="750"
CinematicMaxLights="0"
VolumeAORadiusMultiplier="1"
RTReflectionQuality="xboxscarlettanaconda"
MenuViewportsResolutionMultiplier="0.7"
EditorQuality="xboxscarlettanaconda"
ConfettiQuality="xboxscarlettanaconda"
DeferredFxQuality="console"
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RenderSplashes="1" AreaLight="0"
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id="pc_custom" />Getting 45-55 FPS at native 4k on my 2080Ti (OC)
And 55-70 FPS at 1440
No DLSS in there to match XSX as close as possible.
4k DLSS (Quality) should be roughly similar to 1440p native minus a couple FPS.
You really need to rein in your expectations here for a 10w device. The Series S feels like an impossible target, let alone a Series X.
As someone who has always found SSR artefacts unsightly, I'm very excited to see how raytracing evolves in showpiece console games. This is already a very impressive showing.
There are potentially gameplay implications in being able to see offscreen information as well, as was sort of teased in Hitman 2. I can imagine stealth and horror games putting it to great use.
There are potentially gameplay implications in being able to see offscreen information as well, as was sort of teased in Hitman 2. I can imagine stealth and horror games putting it to great use.
Great analysis. But just kinda shows how AMD is quite far behind nvidia in terms of ray tracing performance. This will be the reality until the mid-gen refresh consoles, which will no doubt be marketed as "true ray tracing" machines. Even still, looking at a rough approximation of a 2080 for non-RT and 2060 super for RT in terms of performance isn't that bad. And seeing RT on consoles is still really damn cool (even the Series S!). Plus, as always the developers will squeeze more out of these systems as time goes on.
It also impacts shading.
Rays may get different materials, textures, lights and shadow maps.
Thus shading of reflected surfaces can become inefficient. (Occupancy, cache trashing etc.)
Roughness affects ray dispersion which in turn affects ray coherency. A rougher surface will result in rays launched in one wave/warp to go into different directions after a hit which means that your processing h/w may suffer a huge performance hit if it's of SIMD nature.
This is one area where NV's RT h/w may have a huge edge over AMD's RT h/w since RDNA2 RT perform ray traversal evaluations on generic FP SIMD units. If the rays are incoherent after a hit you're potentially down from 32 to 1 SIMD lane occupation at that point which means that you're at 1/32 of your math h/w performance.
NV perform ray traversal evaluation on RT cores themselves which have a MIMD processor inside them which doesn't suffer nearly as huge of a performance loss on incoherent ray evaluation.
So expect RT from consoles and in AMD sponsored titles to lean heavily into "perfect mirrors" scenario while avoiding anything which could affect ray coherency.
It's also why I'm wondering if we'll even see much in console / AMD sponsored RT beyond "perfect" mirror reflections and point light shadows as stuff like RT GI tend to produce diverging rays natively.
Wait until the new Radeons are actually benchmarked. I don't expect they'll match the RTX's ray tracing performance, but I wouldn't necessarily draw conclusions on AMD GPU's as a whole based on this one video of console tech that has likely been finalized for over a year.
Still, it's good that even if their raw performance is somewhat limited, there will be far more developers looking to optimize RT as much as possible, which can help the PC too - providing the devs actaully reveal these performance optimizations without having to dig within .ini files, that is.
So for friends now looking at cheaper PC builds as they couldn't secure a PS5 pre-order and the price for the foreseeable future being so high due to demand/resellers. Have we kind of narrowed down the GPU to get to see console level performance? Is the 2060 or 2060s showing above XSX/PS5 performance on non RTX games as well? Obviously with dlss it comes out quite a bit ahead I'd imagine. But trying to find that entry point for a computer upgrade without extreme compromises.
Well my feelings are mixed
1) Great analysis!
2) It's not even as powerful as a 2060 super, a 7 TFlop GPU....That is seriously depressing. I realise this could all be due to the RT component but still.
3) I almost guarantee that during gameplay I wouldn't be able to see any of these things, apart from maybe the dynamic cube maps on windows
4) 4k....Ubisoft, I don't care about 4k. Let me run that game at 1080 constantly and use the GPU to make it smoother or if you can't, better looking.
1) Great analysis!
2) It's not even as powerful as a 2060 super, a 7 TFlop GPU....That is seriously depressing. I realise this could all be due to the RT component but still.
3) I almost guarantee that during gameplay I wouldn't be able to see any of these things, apart from maybe the dynamic cube maps on windows
4) 4k....Ubisoft, I don't care about 4k. Let me run that game at 1080 constantly and use the GPU to make it smoother or if you can't, better looking.
I don't think we will see RT GI on PS5 and XSX or AMD RDNA 2 GPU out of RTX title. I think RT will be limited to shadows and reflection. For GI they will use other solution like SVOGI, UE 5 Lumen of the GI in Demon's Souls Remake or PBGI or other GI solution.
This is probably the reason Cerny did this slide.
There are ways of using RT h/w for GI computation which aren't "pure RT" so to speak - and one example is RTX GI in fact which uses probes approach which are updated with ray tracing but not at each frame and not all at once.I don't think we will see RT GI on PS5 and XSX or AMD RDNA 2 GPU out of RTX title. I think RT will be limited to shadows and reflection. For GI they will use other solution like SVOGI, UE 5 Lumen of the GI in Demon's Souls Remake or PBGI or other GI solution.
This is probably the reason Cerny did this slide.
I think that we'll see a lot of such smart approaches being implemented over the course of this gen as devs will experiment with the h/w and learn new ways of using it in the most optimal way.
Interesting, didn't know that was the difference between the two.
I did have a thought about using a tiled noise pattern to define the dispersion, and then not tracing the scene linearly, but instead as lots of mini scenes, one for each noise pixel, then you will have the whole wave/warp going in the same direction as long as the surface is large + flat enough! But..yeah I'm not going to put much thought into that when I don't even have the hardware to try it yet.
I don't know, depressing isn't a word I'd use to describe these consoles. Fast across the board at 500 dollars. The only thing people should be annoyed about is the storage space, and even then that's just the reality of the tech/cost right now.
The exposure of the actual variables on consoles really did help. I thought there were no diffuse reflections on console at all, but clearly now it's possible but usually probably not feasible. Some of this you simply can't eyeball easily.
I'm very glad AMD's RT implementation isn't a series of clever hacks, but simply a bit worse than Nvidia's efforts. So later console games should start getting some additional nice effects currently enjoyed on PC in specific / clever cases.
I'm very glad AMD's RT implementation isn't a series of clever hacks, but simply a bit worse than Nvidia's efforts. So later console games should start getting some additional nice effects currently enjoyed on PC in specific / clever cases.
2) It is all due to the RT component, no one is saying the 2060 is more powerful as the series x in anything other then ray tracing
Demon's souls uses probes but froxel based GI and update probes based on frustrum from the interview with Digitalfoundry John Linneman. We will see but I would not be surprised if RT acceleration is mostly use only for shadows and specular reflections with GI and diffuse reflection being done using other systems.
It will be interesting to see how it pans out in the future.
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Yeah I don't mean to play down depression - it's certainly not like that. But it was a little bit of an eye opener for me as I was expecting something a little better. And just to be clear I wasn't talking about the consoles as a whole, I realise they are fast this was specifically to do with the RT.
I get that and wonder why this would be the case? In the end for me it's not a major issue w.r.t. actual playing games as I tend not to notice that stuff anyway and personally don't care too much for RT (Although SpiderMan's glass buildings look cool). I have said before many times I'd prefer any GPU resources to go to framerate first, then visuals second.
The dream though is to put everything together: RT for reflections and shadows and AO, something like SVOGI for lighting (or maybe even RT for this at some point in the future), put it all together in order to have something that is almost entirely real time. No more baked, static, environments with a smattering of dynamic objects that stick out because they just aren't part of the realistic lighting system. But instead worlds that change, elements that are destructible, lighting sources that change in real time, etc.
That's going to be REALLY cool when we finally see it in a modern, complex game.
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Only if it ends up being on par with DLSS 2.x. DLSS 1.x had it's own share of issues where it was usually blurrier and also looked like an artist interpretation of a scene, often rendering things a bit differently. Novel idea but just not the right execution. DLSS 2.x is excellent so AMD has pretty large shoes to fill.
Consoles definitely need a tech like that, especially if raytracing is to be in any way good. Looking at the DF review of this game, the RT often looks jagged. I am sure it is not that apparent when actually playing the game but it could have benefited from more smoothing to hide its low res.
Is this all stuff we can expect on this gen of consoles? I love things to look good I just want that framerate first :)
With compromises, yes, I think so. Look at something like the new Unreal Engine. They seem to have a simplified, but real time and really good looking lighting system that isn't ray traced but probably voxel based I think? Not sure how it works actually, I want to go back to the DF analysis at some point.
Toss in RT for the rest, and yeah, it's going to be more limited on consoles than on PC, but it should still allow for impressive dynamic, rela time environments that look like they've been baking for hours in a super computer... or close enough to that :)