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banter

Member
Jan 12, 2018
4,127
I'm pretty much in line with DF on this one. The trailer looks incredible. I'm skeptical on the real time bit, but even with it being possible "just" in engine, it shows a huge leap (in my eyes) in graphical fidelity and makes me optimistic for next gen. If it is in fact real time, next gen is going to be wild, because this is an early gen title. Imagine what they'll be able to do once they've really figured out the kinks of the console.
 

Hoo-doo

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,292
The Netherlands
Why do we bother doing this kind of analysis on non-gameplay footage. I guess we can really appreciate the mocap and the character model rendered at their absolute best, but that is simply not how it looks when we play the actual game.
 

Talus

Banned
Dec 9, 2017
1,386
Dictator Hey Alex you said:

"...and I've yet to see research into techniques that could deliver the perfect LOD transitions exhibited in this trailer."

Why no talk about mesh/amplification shaders and the fact that these consoles could have an entirely new geometry pipeline?
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,622
If it was realtime they'd have used the word realtime at the front and centre of it to let everyone know, instead of the word inengine.
 

Ukumio

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,415
Australia
Why do we bother doing this kind of analysis on non-gameplay footage. I guess we can really appreciate the mocap and the character model rendered at their absolute best, but that is simply not how it looks when we play the actual game.
My guess is because the people over at Digital Foundry want to temper expectations going into next-gen. A lot of people expect parts of Hellblade II to look like this and while it will most likely be fairly close, it probably won't reach the levels of graphic fidelity shown in the trailer. While, I'm sure Digital Foundry would love for games next gen to be capable of the stuff shown, they believe we're not quite there yet.
 

ImaLawy3r

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Jun 6, 2019
619
Me advising caution since we need more Info = don't trust df.

How does that make sense?
I definitely stated in this thread that I'm 90 percent confident that DF is right. It's just that the Phil Spencer interview had me questioning the findings. More than that, I appreciate that you're advising caution is the intent of the video. But tell that to all the Sony fanboys who are running with this video all over Twitter. The entire intent had been taken out of context. Having said that, I don't owe anyone an explanation as to what I believe to be true. I enjoy DFs videos, but make no mistake that I also know that clicks make money. The video is appropriately titled that way
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
Why do we bother doing this kind of analysis on non-gameplay footage. I guess we can really appreciate the mocap and the character model rendered at their absolute best, but that is simply not how it looks when we play the actual game.
because we're upon the arrival of new console hardware and it's good to ask the question if what they show is achievable. "in-engine" can mean lots of thing, even if it's usually for bullshots
 

HeWhoWalks

Member
Jan 17, 2018
2,522
That looks visibly worse than Hellblade 2.

The issue isn't if it looks 'visibly worse than Hellblade 2' (which it should given, uh, it's running on a current gen device). The "nothing comes close" argument is where it clips the hyperbole tag (which often happens when the shiny new toy is unveiled). On top of that, that animation looks about as good as anything I saw from Hellblade 2, so it's just hyperbolic all around.
 

Bjones

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,622
I guess I am the only one who just sees everything put to one character model (in the dark ) with only blurry figures around it?
I mean it's impressive animation but it's nothing well beyond what could be done now in a similar fashion.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,653
The level of detail is really off the charts. Sure would be nice if this was an indication of what next-gen visuals will look like.

I can't remember the last time I was fooled by the "in-engine" moniker, not even when Naughty Dog did it when they revealed UC4. It's a cinematic created by the devs themselves, ostensibly on the game engine they're working with assets they've created themselves, but not necessarily assets plucked from an actual playable state. Might even be rendered at extremely high resolutions (i.e. pre-rendered) to achieve maximum image quality, DICE does this all the time with their "in-engine" trailers.

There's a reason it's described as in-engine and not real-time.
Not sure what the obsession is with this trailer. It's for a game that's years out and says 'in engine'.

we've seen many trailers for in engine many times and games have turned out differently.
It's our first taste of next-gen visuals. It should be obvious why it's getting so much attention.
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,930
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
I definitely stated in this thread that I'm 90 percent confident that DF is right. It's just that the Phil Spencer interview had me questioning the findings. More than that, I appreciate that you're advising caution is the intent of the video. But tell that to all the Sony fanboys who are running with this video all over Twitter. The entire intent had been taken out of context. Having said that, I don't owe anyone an explanation as to what I believe to be true. I enjoy DFs videos, but make no mistake that I also know that clicks make money. The video is appropriately titled that way
Thanks for the kind words
People using my look at the Trailer for console warring is silly and useless - so Power to them I guess. I was pretty sure my take on the Trailer was obvious - not Controversial.

By the way I get what you are saying about clicks - also know that I the creator of this video do not necessarily Label it or give it its title.
 

Hoo-doo

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,292
The Netherlands
The level of detail is really off the charts. Sure would be nice if this was an indication of what next-gen visuals will look like.

I can't remember the last time I was fooled by the "in-engine" moniker, not even when Naughty Dog did it when they revealed UC4. It's a cinematic created by the devs themselves, ostensibly on the game engine they're working with assets they've created themselves, but not necessarily assets plucked from an actual playable state. Might even be rendered at extremely high resolutions (i.e. pre-rendered) to achieve maximum image quality, DICE does this all the time with their "in-engine" trailers.

There's a reason it's described as in-engine and not real-time.

It's our first taste of next-gen visuals. It should be obvious why it's getting so much attention.

As for your last point. It really isn't a taste of next-gen visual quality at all. A clip like that is not representative of what next-gen consoles will be able to produce in gameplay. That's why this analysis feels rather premature.

What we got is a clip that shows a very detailed model and quality mocap. Who knows how it will look in real-time.
 

SuiQuan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
885
Kazakhstan - soon
Unfortunately, this trailer means nothing. If you give me a chance to render in-engine an up close of 3x3 meters of land I can go crazy too, and not even on high end hardware. I'll have the highest polycount possible and will only use normal mapping for micro-surface detail.
The volumetrics of the volcano - I can "bake animations" of changing puffs of smoke (kinda shape shifting mesh) + a smart shader that uses Fresnel to calculate the transparency\softness on edges of the effect. It will look great, but it will be basically a loop animation - no interactivity, no "actual" particle effects, especially at the distance we see in the trailer. (think of sails on ships at the beginning in "Ryse - Son of Rome", but for smoke)
As for LOD - there are some techniques that could potentially be used to make the lod transitions virtually impossible to see. An example - at a certain distance a heavily tessellated (high-poly) rock replaces the original low-poly rock, but the overall geometry volume stays the same (lots of polygons that basically still represent the flat surface of the low-poly original), and then this new high-poly rock rocks morphs into a morph target of a high-poly rock (looks like it gradually changes its form, "moves" into a new shape). If this is done at a considerable distance - it's impossible to see.
So, at least to me, such trailers mean literally nothing, even if "real time", even if "in-engine". There are so many ways to cheat in a certain scenario in graphics, it's crazy. So, it could realistically represent nothing, only represent the in-engine cutscenes, represent the gameplay, represent the gameplay partically, etc. Only time will tell.
 
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banter

Member
Jan 12, 2018
4,127
Not sure what the obsession is with this trailer. It's for a game that's years out and says 'in engine'.

we've seen many trailers for in engine many times and games have turned out differently.
Why would they choose the first officially announced game to show be one that is "years out"? It will likely be launch or shortly thereafter, first year of the console life at most (i guess two years technically counts as "years" but you get what I'm saying).
 

Kasey

Member
Nov 1, 2017
10,822
Boise
As for your last point. It really isn't a taste of next-gen visual quality at all. A clip like that is not representative of what next-gen consoles will be able to produce in gameplay. That's why this analysis feels rather premature.

What we got is a clip that shows a very detailed model and quality mocap. Who knows how it will look in real-time.
Real time means cutscenes too, which always look better than gameplay models, lighting and animation. It's not like there's no point in showing that stuff, especially in a heavily story-based game like Hellblade.
 

Vire

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,591
I would give just about anything for this to be a realistic representation of what we can expect from next gen games, but unfortunately I think DF is right.

There is a big difference between in engine and real time.Y'all remember the Halo 3 reveal trailer?
 

john2gr

Member
Oct 27, 2017
407
Regarding LOD, there have been a lot of experimental LOD tessellation tech demos. As such, we may be looking at such implementation here. Below you can find a video in which there is no pop-in at all.


Hell, I remember seeing a similar tech demo even for DX11. Theoretically, you will get some "morphing" due to how tessellation works but not pop-in. Add some DoF effect and the "morphing" will be greatly minimized.

 
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Kamaros

Member
Aug 29, 2018
2,315
note how NT/Microsoft people just say "in engine", nobody say it's playable or anything.

with advanced engines nowadays, this could mean anything and when you put a player controller there and press play, things change a lot.
 

AtomicShroom

Tools & Automation
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
3,075
Any of you thinking this is actually real-time are crazy delusional.

- Like DF said: There's no LOD whatsoever, both on geometry or lighting/shadows. Come on now.
- The trailer has a perfect frame rate without a single frame skip. A game that is a year away from release would never be even close to be in such a stable/polished/optimized state. Even final games rarely exhibit such a stable framerate. Puh-lease.
- Similar to previous point: This game is a year away! No way it looks this perfect at this point in time. Games a year out look and run like absolute ass, and especially on new hardware that you're barely scratching the surface of.
- And even if it did, the render quality looks too perfect period. There is not a single shimmer or artifact to be seen anywhere. Next-gen consoles are going to be powerful, but they're not Pixar render farms. Even today's most powerful PC's are nowhere near close to producing such a level of real-time render fidelity.

It's possible this was rendered in-engine, but real-time? Give me a break!

It's like you guys haven't learned from the industry's eternal bullshot epidemic. I'm getting vibes from this all over again:

-b9kv3vQMRQcCdZSInUXXfHNLjlC24SHrA4Pr99CXB0.jpg
 

nekkid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,823
I would give just about anything for this to be a realistic representation of what we can expect from next gen games, but unfortunately I think DF is right.

There is a big difference between in engine and real time.Y'all remember the Halo 3 reveal trailer?

The Halo 3 reveal was run real time on an Xbox 360, wasn't it? I remember reading that Bungie had 3 360s running it at the same time so that there was redundancy they could switch to if there was a hiccup.
 

christocolus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,932
Great job DF. Never been so hyped by a game trailer. NT is such a talented dev. Wow. Can't wait to play this on XSX.
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
I mean it was kinda obvious to anyone, that what we saw was not a game or anything reflective how it will look like, but a music video created in engine solely for the purpose of being a music video/ad.
 

Bad_Boy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
So Alex started by saying this isn't a KZ2 situation, but then goes on to say he thinks it's pre-rendered (i.e. a KZ2 situation).

Which is it?
I think they meant that KZ is completely prerendered cgi with a target visual of the final ps3 hardware.

But this is prerendered but in-engine. Like actual engine assets but cleaned up for presentation sake.
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,930
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
Regarding LOD, there have been a lot of experimental LOD tessellation tech demos. As such, we may be looking at such implementation here. Below you can find a video in which there is no pop-in at all.


Hell, I remember seeing a similar tech demo even for DX11. Theoretically, you will get some "morphing" due to how tessellation works but not pop-in. Add some DoF effect and the "morphing" will be greatly minimized.

The one Thing is this Demo Show cases assets that have horizontal displacement from the ground, so much of it cannot be heightmapped tessellation. All those skulls and bones and such are discrete assets.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,018
Florida
The one Thing is this Demo Show cases assets that have horizontal displacement from the ground, so much of it cannot be heightmapped tessellation. All those skulls and bones and such are discrete assets.

I'm still undecided if they're embellished a bit or if we just don't have a firm enough grasp yet on how good next gen will be when pushed to it's limits.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,038
It's surely basic game marketing vocabulary isn't it?

"real-time captured on XX " - engine running real time on target hardware. Possibly prerendered so some caution and obviously a cutscene will be nicer looking than gameplay

"in engine" - often means no limitations that you'd see with real time. So eg you can take longer per frame a bit like photo mode / and then cut together in a video editor into a Final clip. So you can use much higher settings than would be possible in gameplay. Higher LoD assets, keeping high LoD even when far away, longer draw distance, higher quality motion blur and AA etc


In this case I think Phil even said it was running on target performance during the game awards so either a pc or a lower powered console devkit (not final silicon). Prerendering makes sense if you dint have final silicon as you can only simulate expected performance
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,038


At 3:20 Phil says this is in engine, built to take advantage of the power of Xbox series X

very careful wording which Screams 'prerendered on a PC using a NT engine based on expectations of performance'
 

Rabalder.

Member
Dec 8, 2018
1,481
While Hellblade looks incredible, this just seems like too big of a jump, especially in the environmental detail. I wouldn't get your hopes up too much.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,975
The UE5 demo was encouraging and should put to rest the narrative that a more powerful console in the XSX won't achieve and improve upon the visuals from the Hellblade 2 trailer.
 

melodiousmowl

Member
Jan 14, 2018
3,774
CT
This demo only firms up in my mind that Hellblade2 might not be crossgen and the detail in tne environments are 100% possible in realtime.
 

etta

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,512
Yea watching this after the UE5 gameplay does make it more believable and plausible that the Hellblade 2 could achieve those visuals in-game.