Digital Foundry: Senua's Saga: Hellblade 2 Xbox Series X Trailer Analysis: Our First Taste of Next-Gen Power?

nelsonroyale · Dec 18, 2019

Terror-Billy said:
I mean, I get the skepticism over this, but it doesn't look Blur Studios level of good for it to be CGI or something. Zooming in on screenshots, it looks great but it looks like a game possible on something next gen. The thing Alex complains about is understandable, but this has to be a case of a target render, with some polish (like distance LOD like Alex says) done on a different pipeline.

yeah, seems like it is potentially pre rendered using assets and tech that is at least mostly going to be in the game. Its probably a target render, which definitely means it should be taken with a grain of salt, but also offers a glimpse of what we can generally expect from the AAA devs.

Earthed · Dec 18, 2019

Sems4arsenal said:
So Alex started by saying this isn't a KZ2 situation, but then goes on to say he thinks it's pre-rendered (i.e. a KZ2 situation).

Which is it?

Hellblade is in-engine. KZ2 wasn't.

rokkerkory · Dec 18, 2019

It looks amazing but yeah cautiously optimistic for sure.

Dinjoralo · Dec 18, 2019

Kibbles said:
They already said it's real-time in interviews.

I don't get why they didn't say that when the trailer was revealed.

Kibbles · Dec 18, 2019

Peltz said:
How could you take Gamespot's word over Digital Foundry? How long have you been reading both sites?

Digital Foundry does very respectable work and don't make conclusory statements. Gamespot probably conflates the meaning of "real time" and in engine. There's no way given the timelines that this is real time gameplay on Xbox Series X hardware. It just doesn't make sense given what we know about when specs get finalized and the footage that has been shown.

We are looking at in-engine cutscenes running on a devkit at best until we are specifically shown otherwise. It's likely to be on a PC though, and not a devkit.

These are articles written before and sanctioned by Microsoft before it was even revealed, Microsoft would've had them take it out if they mistakenly said that Phil said it was real-time.

Dictator · Dec 18, 2019

Kenzodielocke said:
I don't understand why he thinks it's something that gamespot said and not Spencer?

I vastly prefer direct quotes because they show accountability and gives us better context as to what is being said by the person saying them.
And to be honest, it would not be the first time there was some level of confusion regarding in-engine, real time, running on a play station or whatever coming from an off quote.

Dinjoralo said:
I don't get why they didn't say that when the trailer was revealed.

hah. Yeah.

Deleted member 8752 · Dec 18, 2019

Kibbles said:
These are articles written before and sanctioned by Microsoft before it was even revealed, Microsoft would've had them take it out if they mistakenly said that Phil said it was real-time.

It's not a direct quote and articles get things wrong all the time. Why would Phil say real time to only one source?

Why would Microsoft also correct Gamespot? They are not Gamespot's editors. Who is to say the team that the Microsoft PR team who approves of these articles also has insight into the development of the game or any techincal insight?

There's a ton of moving parts here and no direct quote. It doesn't make sense to call this real time also when we know there are probably no gameplay scenes here, just cutscenes.

Kenzodielocke · Dec 18, 2019

Dictator said:
I vastly prefer direct quotes because they show accountability and gives us better context as to what is being said by the person saying them.
And to be honest, it would not be the first time there was some level of confusion regarding in-engine, real time, running on a play station or whatever coming from an off quote.

Have you tried to contact the writer of the article? Or Spencer himself. I mean I think they could clear it up.

To me it reads like something Spencer said, but it could be wrong as you said. And I don't have the reach to contact either.

Dokkaebi G0SU · Dec 18, 2019

Wizardry where we don't even believe they can do this!

NEXT GEN GONNA BE LIT FAM!

Dreamwriter · Dec 18, 2019

Sems4arsenal said:
So Alex started by saying this isn't a KZ2 situation, but then goes on to say he thinks it's pre-rendered (i.e. a KZ2 situation).

Which is it?

KillZone 2's trailer was created entirely in art programs, it was about as real as a Pixar movie. "In Engine" means that everything you see in this trailer was playing in the game's engine, but it doesn't necessarily means it was playing in realtime, nor necessarily that everything is an in-game effect - you can make game engines take like a minute or longer to render a frame, yet render all the frames as if the game was running at a solid framerate. And they could also in theory include short pre-rendered videos as effects, such as a video of volumetric smoke that they place on the top of the volcano.

In Unity for example, if you set Time.captureFramerate to 60, the game will run the game updates and render as if it was a smooth 60fps, regardless of how long it takes to actually render each frame - the game will run in slow motion if it has to, rather than skipping frames. Then you write each frame to disk, make it into a video running at 60fps, and there you go, a pre-rendered in-engine trailer that looks great.

The original Hellblade actually did some of this in cutscenes - many things were rendered in realtime, but there were some characters that were just 2D videos placed into the world, if you could move the camera around they would look totally fake.

WhtR88t · Dec 18, 2019

It's a shame that the first PS5 game shown got panned for graphics compared to this and come to find out Godfall was 4K/60 and Hellblade is sub 4K/24.

Unfortunately, just goes to further confirm it's better to focus on graphics vs frame rate when marketing games.

Sems4arsenal · Dec 18, 2019

Dreamwriter said:
KillZone 2's trailer was created entirely in art programs, it was about as real as a Pixar movie. "In Engine" means that everything you see in this trailer was playing in the game's engine, but it doesn't necessarily means it was playing in realtime, nor necessarily that everything is an in-game effect - you can make game engines take like a minute or longer to render a frame, yet render all the frames as if the game was running at a solid framerate. And they could also in theory include short pre-rendered videos as effects, such as a video of volumetric smoke that they place on the top of the volcano.

In Unity for example, if you set Time.captureFramerate to 60, the game will run the game updates and render as if it was a smooth 60fps, regardless of how long it takes to actually render each frame - the game will run in slow motion if it has to, rather than skipping frames. Then you write each frame to disk, make it into a video running at 60fps, and there you go, a pre-rendered in-engine trailer that looks great.

Oh, interesting. Thanks for the info. It's still considered bullshots, though.

GearDraxon · Dec 18, 2019

Dictator said:
running on a play station

The Xbox's secret sauce was Playstation all along!

ILikeFeet · Dec 18, 2019

Sems4arsenal said:
Oh, interesting. Thanks for the info. It's still considered bullshots, though.

no one is arguing otherwise, that's what "in-engine" means. devs just don't have to spend time outside the toolset to make spruced up shots

Pryme · Dec 18, 2019

skillzilla81 said:
I don't know why we're supposed to take these kinds of videos at face value after these same companies have lied time after time about graphical fidelity. ESPECIALLY when it comes to launch titles and selling a new console's power.

I appreciate DF, and nobody should be taking MS, Ninja Theory, Sony's or any other word that these are what games look like until we have legitimate hands-on gameplay.

when did Ninja theory lie about graphical fidelity?

Psyrgery · Dec 18, 2019

Sems4arsenal said:
So Alex started by saying this isn't a KZ2 situation, but then goes on to say he thinks it's pre-rendered (i.e. a KZ2 situation).

Which is it?

Killzone2 wqs a video. This is more akin to Uncharted4 reveal video. In-engine but definately not in real time, with many assets crancked up to eleven that are expected to take a hit when the game os revealed (like LOD at further distances)

Deleted member 437 · Dec 18, 2019

I still dont get impressed by in engine cut scenes. Dont care.

Don't care about this one.

Don't care about the Halo Infinite one.

Don't care about The Last of Us 2 reveal one.

Show me this in the game.

Then you'll impress me.

ImaginaShawn · Dec 18, 2019

Pryme said:
when did Ninja theory lie about graphical fidelity?

This.

While I agree with healthy skepticism, at some point we should just look at the Dev's track record.

RingRang · Dec 18, 2019

Seeing what we've seen on the current consoles, that trailer didn't look like something that wasn't possible on the next consoles to me. The bar really has been raised.

Dead Man Typing · Dec 18, 2019

"In engine" is an annoying term because it can mean real time or pre-rendered depending on the situation.
Companies love to use the term to create some confusion.

Uncharted 1, 2 and 3's cutscenes are in engine. But they are pre-rendered in engine.
Uncharted 4's cutscenes are real time, but you could also call them real time in engine.

Then you get bull shots which can be the game running in real time but on a super powerful PC. That's in engine, too. But might not be running on an actual Xbox or PS4.

It's a term we should reject or at least demand companies be more clear when they use it. No company wants to say "Nah, it won't look like that on real hardware" because sometimes the difference will be so minimal that you won't be able to tell

Godzilla24 · Dec 18, 2019

Ninja Theory have set the new benchmark in graphics animation. Nothing comes close.

henhowc · Dec 18, 2019

The animation is what makes it impressive for me. In-engine cutscene reveals always have me a bit wary though.

Deleted member 8196 · Dec 18, 2019

Dead Man Typing said:
"In engine" is an annoying term because it can mean real time or pre-rendered depending on the situation.
Companies love to use the term to create some confusion.

Uncharted 1, 2 and 3's cutscenes are in engine. But they are pre-rendered in engine.
Uncharted 4's cutscenes are real time, but you could also call them real time in engine.

Then you get bull shots which can be the game running in real time but on a super powerful PC. That's in engine, too. But might not be running on an actual Xbox or PS4.

It's a term we should reject or at least demand companies be more clear when they use it. No company wants to say "Nah, it won't look like that on real hardware" because sometimes the difference will be so minimal that you won't be able to tell

This is the difference, according to Total War devs

'In-engine Cinematic'
The video uses Development in Progress in-game assets and code as a basis for a video shot with cinematic camera techniques to create movie-like footage. This is representative of the themes and general look and feel of the game, but it is not the direct in-game experience you will get when you are physically playing the final game.

'In-game Cinematic'
This is the same as an 'In-engine Cinematic' except you can expect to see the vast majority (if not all) of the footage appear in the final game as an in-game movie, such as a intro or win movie for example.

'Cinematic Trailer'
This is a video that doesn't use the game engine to produce its visuals. They might use some game assets like models and audio to contribute to the making of them, but for the avoidance of doubt, please assume that nothing you are seeing is from the game itself. These are typically CGI or Live Action trailers and videos, and will be otherwise very apparent.

Hellblade fits the "In-engine Cinematic".

Gaming_Groove · Dec 18, 2019

deleted

chandoog · Dec 18, 2019

GearDraxon said:
The Xbox's secret sauce was Playstation all along!

They played us like a damn fiddle !

mavericktopgun · Dec 18, 2019

Would be funny if the final game will look better and all can eat crow ;)

DukeBlueBall · Dec 18, 2019

It's impressive but I did rather have 60 fps games that look a tad worse.

Black_Stride · Dec 18, 2019

Sems4arsenal said:
So Alex started by saying this isn't a KZ2 situation, but then goes on to say he thinks it's pre-rendered (i.e. a KZ2 situation).

Which is it?

You do know you can use UE4 to prerender things right?

So with their version of UnrealEngine 4 they just set it to render out a 24fps video, and set the LOD to always be at max because a stutter during rendering doesnt matter....they can also set other effects that might be culled during actual gameplay to just always be on. e.g Tesselation.
YOu do this because any stuttering during the render doesnt affect gameplay because no one is actually playing.....set the Engine to its real time levels and chances are you see alot more tesselation and LOD pop in.

All this could be happening on the Series X proof it can actually pull these visuals off but chances are at 30fps with all the usual optimizations effectively turned off you would run into issues.....so for gameplay sake you optimize.

Xx 720 · Dec 18, 2019

If the trailer runs at 24, does this mean they will likely target 30fps for the final game?

btags · Dec 18, 2019

ILikeFeet said:
in-engine and real-time

on a high end PC probably

Yeah, I know it may be a little wordy to get out there, but the fact that they do not explicitly make the statement, "running in-engine and real time on xbox series x hardware (or equivalent spec pc)," makes me doubt that what we are seeing is representative of what the game will look like. I'd love to be proven wrong, but until we see this running on real hardware or a more definitive statement, I will remain skeptical.

Sems4arsenal said:
So Alex started by saying this isn't a KZ2 situation, but then goes on to say he thinks it's pre-rendered (i.e. a KZ2 situation).

Which is it?

I haven't watched the video yet, but this could be pre-rendered in engine whereas killzone 2 was prerendered but not based on anything close to the engine they ended up using for the game. That would be the difference.

Diarrhea Day-Lewis · Dec 18, 2019

The article mentions Death Stranding visual comparisons in the video but I couldn't find them after some light scrubbing, do we have any decent comparisons between Hb2 and HB1 or current gen titles? Like images

Deleted member 54292 · Dec 18, 2019

This gen has produced some very impressive games; it is easy to extrapolate that the increase in power next gen is gonna result in some serious gorgeous games. The tech this gen and into the future really feels like game makers can cram all the detail they ever wanted in. So cool.

GameAddict411 · Dec 18, 2019

The 24 FPS is a big red flag IMO. It indicates that this might not be running real time, or it's probably a hybrid between real time and pre-rendered. Alex's comment on LOD change being not visible in the trailer seems to support this. This is why I am not trusting any game footage of next gen games until it's running locally at DF or that they show substantial gameplay where it's obviously running real time.

Black_Stride · Dec 18, 2019

DukeBlueBall said:
It's impressive but I did rather have 60 fps games that look a tad worse.

No one said there wasnt a perf mode?
Its worked out with the midgens im sure MS wouldnt mind letting gamers decide between Res and Frames.

Deleted member 1589 · Dec 18, 2019

It really is wonderful.

A lot have thought that graphics wont get that much better next gen, and out comes this.

Franco_Tech · Dec 18, 2019

WhtR88t said:
It's a shame that the first PS5 game shown got panned for graphics compared to this and come to find out Godfall was 4K/60 and Hellblade is sub 4K/24.

Unfortunately, just goes to further confirm it's better to focus on graphics vs frame rate when marketing games.

You my friend are right, hypocrisy of gamers fuck graphics we want frame rate, but in reality what sells and trends is graphics.

Black_Stride · Dec 18, 2019

GameAddict411 said:
The 24 FPS is a big red flag IMO. It indicates that this might not be running real time, or it's probably a hybrid between real time and pre-rendered. Alex's comment on LOD change being not visible in the trailer seems to support this. This is why I am not trusting any game footage of next gen games until it's running locally at DF or that they show substantial gameplay where it's obviously running real time.

They could just set the frame rate in UE4 to 24 for the capture literally for cinematic purposes......still be realtime.

The game is most likely 4K30 sub4K60.

P.S This screenshot v My GTX 1070 aint ready.....time to start saving for that Ampere.

^This legit looks like an offline render.
If I achieved this offline, I would be proud.....doing this in real time....FUCK.

iareharSon · Dec 18, 2019

I mean the first game was developed by ~20 people, and Microsoft has significantly grown Ninja Theory since acquiring them - so if a significant portion of Ninja Theory's staffing and resources are being dedicated to this game I wouldn't be surprised if they were able to achieve something as stellar as we're seeing in that trailer.

Black_Stride · Dec 18, 2019

WhtR88t said:
It's a shame that the first PS5 game shown got panned for graphics compared to this and come to find out Godfall was 4K/60 and Hellblade is sub 4K/24.

Unfortunately, just goes to further confirm it's better to focus on graphics vs frame rate when marketing games.

This game is NOT actually going to run at 24fps.....are you slow?
And its just letterboxing....we still call letterboxed 4K.....err 4K

reKon · Dec 18, 2019

WhtR88t said:
It's a shame that the first PS5 game shown got panned for graphics compared to this and come to find out Godfall was 4K/60 and Hellblade is sub 4K/24.

Unfortunately, just goes to further confirm it's better to focus on graphics vs frame rate when marketing games.

I didn't know that they're going for 4K 60FPS for Godfall.

Wow... give me this in every game.

DukeBlueBall · Dec 18, 2019

WhtR88t said:
It's a shame that the first PS5 game shown got panned for graphics compared to this and come to find out Godfall was 4K/60 and Hellblade is sub 4K/24.

Unfortunately, just goes to further confirm it's better to focus on graphics vs frame rate when marketing games.

Downfall was going to get panned for it's graphics even if Hellblade wasn't shown.

The trailer wasn't impressive by current gen standards outside of 4k60fps.

Gearbox isn't a graphic powerhouse studio, so it speaks nothing about PS5 / other games on PS5.

cartoon_soldier · Dec 18, 2019

GameAddict411 said:
The 24 FPS is a big red flag IMO. It indicates that this might not be running real time, or it's probably a hybrid between real time and pre-rendered. Alex's comment on LOD change being not visible in the trailer seems to support this. This is why I am not trusting any game footage of next gen games until it's running locally at DF or that they show substantial gameplay where it's obviously running real time.

It is not pre-rendered. It is In Engine, the UE4 Engine runs this. This is what the Engine could be targeting.

Gnorman · Dec 18, 2019

Mikey Jr. said:
I still dont get impressed by in engine cut scenes. Dont care.

Don't care about this one.

Don't care about the Halo Infinite one.

Don't care about The Last of Us 2 reveal one.

Show me this in the game.

Then you'll impress me.

Exactly. People still fall for this shit time and time again though.

Detective Pidgey · Dec 18, 2019

If they achieve these faces in cutscenes, awesome, that's an insane step up from the first game. Those faces ingame? Not a chance.

Black_Stride · Dec 18, 2019

DukeBlueBall said:
Downfall was going to get panned for it's graphics even if Hellblade wasn't shown.

The trailer wasn't impressive by current gen standards outside of 4k60fps.

Gearbox isn't a graphic powerhouse studio, so it speaks nothing about PS5 / other games on PS5.

Wasnt GodFall also shown during the Series X reveal.....we still werent overly impressed.
It just didnt look quite NextGen enough.

And yeah Gearbox hasnt been a Graphical powerhouse since like Brothers in Arm hill 30......maybe also Hells Highway, I remember being impressed by that too.

When Sony does their reveal they are sure to come with real graphical powerhouses.

SharpX68K · Dec 18, 2019

Kibbles said:
They already said it's real-time in interviews.

Wouldn't be the first time companies have said real-time.

coldcrush · Dec 18, 2019

I posted words to this effect somewhere else but while I think people should be excited about next gen games and in a few years when we are deeper into the generation we will start to see epic showcases of the tech we should really be cautious with our expectations for launch games. Don't get me wrong I believe Ninja theory probably will have some fantastic advances in their facial capture due to their partnerships with epic and other proprietary capture companies, plus I think lighting, fog and tricks can really make the perceived end visual result look really good. I would definitely be very surprised if game play looked like this for any next gen titles for a good while

ILikeFeet · Dec 18, 2019

Godfall's art style is the issue, methinks, not the tech behind it (it's running on the same engine as Hellblade after all)

Deleted member 8196 · Dec 18, 2019

WhtR88t said:
It's a shame that the first PS5 game shown got panned for graphics compared to this and come to find out Godfall was 4K/60 and Hellblade is sub 4K/24.

Unfortunately, just goes to further confirm it's better to focus on graphics vs frame rate when marketing games.

Since when Godfall was confirmed for 4K and 60fps?
Godfall looks like ass because of the art style.

Phil me in · Dec 18, 2019

Not sure what the obsession is with this trailer. It's for a game that's years out and says 'in engine'.

we've seen many trailers for in engine many times and games have turned out differently.

Digital Foundry: Senua's Saga: Hellblade 2 Xbox Series X Trailer Analysis: Our First Taste of Next-Gen Power?

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