Digital Foundry: Ray Tracing in Games: How Today's Big Tech Gamble Became Tomorrow's Sure Thing [Sponsored]

[Meadbeard]

That control picture reminds me of character creation in many games, when creating your character it's often using optimal lighting condition but as soon as you get to the ingame portion your created character looks like a monster due to the ingame lighting.

Anyways looking forward to seeing raytracing become a more common feature in games

 

[Ra]

Jesus fucking Christ.

The only reason some people think 30fps is fine is because they're console fucking plebs that are fucking brainwashed by Sony and Microsoft?

Click to shrink...

That's quite the take indeed. Disappointing.

Click to shrink...

Sure it's a sensitive subject, but if we're 100% real it just is what it is.

Why are we so afraid to talk about it.

It should be blatantly obvious that I'm not suggesting everyone in existence thinks this way, so don't be too reductive about it and add immature emotional terms like "console fanboyism" or stupid shit like that. I'm talking about mindshare.

The fact is most technology doesn't matter until the widespread console audience gets to experience the merits of it. That isn't controversial.

 

[Eggiem]

Edit: Not worth it.

 

[Deleted member 11976]

I think this is the best comparison yet. Good job Alex :)

Click to shrink...

This seems like a really weird example. I don't remember Control looking like the left screenshot even on my PS4 Pro. I don't really buy this comparison shot, sorry.

I own a 2080 Ti if it helps my statement. I just want to point out that the leftmost example seems to purposely be made to look awful.

 

[Wumbo64]

Ray Tracing is neat, but it will honestly be underappreciated by a lot of folks. The expectation is that video games are going to get prettier as time moves along and clearly more and more resources get poured into their development.

I guess it's a similar proportion to those who would watch films and actively study the lighting work. 99% of the audience is likely just interested in the story or experience. Part of that leftover 1 percent will appreciate everything that makes that experience function. In the case of cinema: individual performances, directing decisions, scripts, editing, cinematography, sound mixing, musical composition, set design, costumes... and lighting.

With games, the breakdown of things to appreciate can be even more granular. If you were to tell folks that a RTX-level breakthrough was made in motion capture or positional audio, they'd probably be dismissive. You would have an easier time generating interest in bleeding edge physics simulations or NPC artificial intelligence. I look at the early interest in Crackdown 3's cloud-destruction or the Milo Kinect demo for reference.

Me? I'm personally more interested in how A.I. in general can enhance game development. I'd rather have programs that can automatically play-test software and log/squash bugs than lighting that "just works." Hell, I'd rather their be some huge advancement in how textures are populated into games so I don't have to spend upwards of 10 seconds looking at blank loading screen, see textures pop-in, and have shitty LOD after a preset distance in play spaces. Other than maybe eventually offloading a good chunk of work for lighting departments in studios, ray-tracing doesn't do too much more than provide potential eyecandy for consumers. Like I said, it's interesting, but I feel like we should be advocating for engineering strides to be made in other areas.

Oh, and as for the whole sponsored content thing... it's YouTube. I don't blame DF for taking money anywhere they can get it. I am sure their videos aren't trivial to produce. I suppose the backlash from slapping an Nvidia tag on content driven by RTX should have been expected, but people here are getting downright mean. I appreciate all the content these guys make, part of a very small community making novel and informative content on our shared hobby.

 

[Tsoi]

This seems like a really weird example. I don't remember Control looking like the left screenshot even on my PS4 Pro. I don't really buy this comparison shot, sorry.

I own a 2080 Ti if it helps my statement. I just want to point out that the leftmost example seems to purposely be made to look awful.

Click to shrink...

That's the point. The intention is to show where standard lighting and shadowing techniques fail and what RT does to improve upon it.

 

[trugc]

Screen space shadows can help aleviate this, but you have to create a scheme to make them work from more than one light (so it has to choose lights somehow, which is not easy) and even then they have issues. They would not capture most of the shadows there for example in the shot of Jesse. The SSAO in control is actually very similar to screen space shadows.

Click to shrink...

Why is this a problem? If you mean many lights situation then it's a problem for ray tracing as well.

But even then it is not just the shadows in that shot making it look so different. The shading on the eyes and under the nose or even the hair is completely different - because every pixels is getting per pixel RT results for indirect lighting and shadowing, instead of just random cubemap and probe results. So hair shading, eye shading, skin shading, etc. all becomes more realistic with RT.

Click to shrink...

I don't think they are using ray-traced specular on skin or hair. It's usually limited to surface with low roughness.
Also, is Remedy really using importance sampling for generating reflection vector? The elongation effects are less noticeable in RTX version. Either they are using convolved mipmaps rather than stochastic sampling for different roughness or their denoising solution is a bit too aggressive.

 

[Dark1x]

That's nice to say, but again - you're replying to this in a thread where the organization you work for just did a 20 minute ad. It's ridiculous to think the slightest suspicion of motivations (it's not a binary of corrupt/uncorrupt btw!) that are even hinted at when you decide to do that are inherently off-limits because you say have 'passion' for a certain industry.

I don't think you, or the DF team, are 'corrupt' and are inherently doing ads - at least outside of the scope of what tech 'journalists' do in general when they cover this industry. I'm just a consumer of your product voicing what I felt was a slight shift in tone in coverage over recent years that I feel has been apparent, at least to me. You exclaiming how much you love what you do is really beside the point (and, when you cover said industry - is that necessarily a positive?), when you make the choice to accept funds from the companies you critique - no matter how required it may be to remain functional as a business - you have compromised your objectivity. To what extent, if any? Who knows! But that's why journalists have ethics guidelines to avoid the perception of influence. I can't possibly know what's in your heart of hearts, the litmus test of objectivity isn't how loudly you proclaim how objective you are.

It would be great if this kind of thing wasn't required to produce these on the regular, the problem of journalistic independence is not new and how to actually achieve that without needing corporate profits on the regular vs. government meddling is damned tough (one of the many reasons I support a vastly increased welfare state is to to make independent journalism a more viable career path for example). So I have no problem with the claim that this is necessary to do the work you do, I accept that - but you also have to accept that accepting that, no matter how materially necessary it may be to keep the lights on - comes with an inherent cost of perceived impartiality.

Click to shrink...

I suppose the thing is - I never considered these videos a product. I suppose they are.

I don't believe I'm doing journalistic work, though. I make entertainment and pseudo-educational content or at least that's the goal.

I guess your comments surprise me because it is so far from the reality of the situation. You're welcome to think otherwise but you're basically saying that the style of the site has changed due to external influence. In reality, that's just not true.

If anything, your comments make me wonder why I've wasted so many nights and put in so many hours. If it's all perceived as an ad or product then I've failed and should probably move on.

 

[chubigans]

I suppose the thing is - I never considered these videos a product. I suppose they are.

I don't believe I'm doing journalistic work, though. I make entertainment and pseudo-educational content or at least that's the goal.

I guess your comments surprise me because it is so far from the reality of the situation. You're welcome to think otherwise but you're basically saying that the style of the site has changed due to external influence. In reality, that's just not true.

If anything, your comments make me wonder why I've wasted so many nights and put in so many hours. If it's all perceived as an ad or product then I've failed and should probably move on.

Click to shrink...

Don't let the comments get you down man. I love your work and these kinds of feelings don't represent even a fraction of all the people that watch your vids.

 

[FarZa17]

Ray tracing tech in video game real time graphics definitely is awesome and I love it; I play Control on PC with such effect enabled. Although, specifically I only like and care the RT reflection effect.

I don't care much about the ray traced shadow, lighting and others. Not saying they are bad or unnecessary, just not the one that I personally 'obsess' much.. I still find static or baked shadows and lighting that some games implemented just look great and acceptable for me.

The reflection on the other hand is just a neat effect that I love and obsess since the early days of video game graphics. I like staring and admiring to any object or surface that provides the reflection effect, like puddle, mirror, metallic object etc. Whether the reflection technique used is just a copy of inverted 2D image, duplicated models, static or dynamic environment mapping, or screen space technique, which is currently used by many games for this gen, I like them all. And now the reflection with ray traced technique? It's just pure awesome.

 

[Chettlar]

How in the world will ray-tracing make game development simpler next gen when every game will have a PC version that is compatible with non-RTX equipped GPUs.

You have to do lighting for the entire game twice next-gen.

Click to shrink...

I think as time goes on games will get worse and worse rasterized lighting as devs put less and less time into it.

PC gaming hasn't gone through these shifts in a while, but it has gone through them before. Heck, discrete GPUs was one such thing where eventually developers had to go sorry, you have to have a discrete GPU. Same with programmable shaders, which I think they mention in the video.

 

[amc]

Ray Tracing has been coming since year dot. It's always been seen to be the best way to render game worlds, from lighting to reflections to plenty of other game building aspects aside. And it's not just about realism, it's about rendering all game worlds better and more involving. Now is the time for it to start proper, and it's going to keep getting better and more optimal from a software side, and hardware of course. Yes it's going to come at a cost, don't new graphical routines always? but it's truly going to shake up game development and consumer experience and it's pretty fucking exciting. It's almost up there with the polygon. We always have a battle between performance and the new new, AA, HD, 4K etc but when this tech matures, and we need this compromise transition for it to mature, it's going to change the whole game, it'll make 4K et al look like the inconsequential trinkets they are (comparatively)

Get with it. It's not just shiny reflections yo!

 

[Deleted member 20297]

I'm still skeptical about next gen RT technology on consoles. It's an area where I can see PC evolving massively and rapidly while console will have the "first gen" tech for years. And considering how performance tanks already on top notch Nvidia hardware I'm also skeptical we will get even that performance of RT on consoles.

 

[Dictator]

Why is this a problem? If you mean many lights situation then it's a problem for ray tracing as well.

I don't think they are using ray-traced specular on skin or hair. It's usually limited to surface with low roughness.
Also, is Remedy really using importance sampling for generating reflection vector? The elongation effects are less noticeable in RTX version. Either they are using convolved mipmaps rather than stochastic sampling for different roughness or their denoising solution is a bit too aggressive.

Click to shrink...

Remedy is indeed tying in specular and and diffuse from RT into nearly all of the shading, it is why when you do back and forths you see differences in hair and skin lighting. We asked them about cut off and Such in an Interview at Gamescom. You can see that really easily in the scene in the video when i stop the Camera while the gun is shooting. Control does not use a low roughness cut off like Battlefield V on Medium or low.

Their reflections are indeed importance sampled and not convolved Mip map (I do not think any shipping RT game has used convolved Mip map, i have only seen it in the mcguire paper), really obvious to see stretching on the marble floors where the janitor is or in they yellow tinted research/Prototype sector. I would Imagine the lengthening Fall off difference you see in that shot is due to denoising, Camera angle, but most importantly the contrast to the ssr screen. The ssr there is falling off into the SDF reflections, giving them the falll off look in comparison.


In my Initial Video on the launch Version of control, i Show how the importance sampling in dark scenes/stretch reflections causes the denoising to work worse and you get Pixel swimming.

 

[Chettlar]

I suppose the thing is - I never considered these videos a product. I suppose they are.

I don't believe I'm doing journalistic work, though. I make entertainment and pseudo-educational content or at least that's the goal.

I guess your comments surprise me because it is so far from the reality of the situation. You're welcome to think otherwise but you're basically saying that the style of the site has changed due to external influence. In reality, that's just not true.

If anything, your comments make me wonder why I've wasted so many nights and put in so many hours. If it's all perceived as an ad or product then I've failed and should probably move on.

Click to shrink...

Man I don't know why you're getting shitty comments like that. People are dumb. Don't listen to them. I've learned a lot from your videos, and I've sent the video to a few people as an excellent central video to basically just explain everything someone nowadays needs to know about raytracing.

Everyone trying to read into this because DF openly disclosed it was a sponsored video are insane. Like sorry guys, DF does have to make money. Literally everyone does this. It's hilarious especially when DF has been accused of being shills for every gaming brand in existance. Nevermind your history demonstrates your integrity and reliability.

Seriously knock it off people. This is embarrassing. I swear people on Era do not live in the real world.

 

[GhostofWar]

I suppose the thing is - I never considered these videos a product. I suppose they are.

I don't believe I'm doing journalistic work, though. I make entertainment and pseudo-educational content or at least that's the goal.

I guess your comments surprise me because it is so far from the reality of the situation. You're welcome to think otherwise but you're basically saying that the style of the site has changed due to external influence. In reality, that's just not true.

If anything, your comments make me wonder why I've wasted so many nights and put in so many hours. If it's all perceived as an ad or product then I've failed and should probably move on.

Click to shrink...

This place is a shit show John unless your blowing sony's trumpet. I don't know why you and alex subject yourself to the shit you get here. Even richard gets shit for what he says about xbox.

 

[DopeyFish]

people will really love RT when we finally get to full scene with indirect lighting

shadows and reflections/refractions are one thing, but RT really shines with it's lighting modelling.

unfortunately from what we can gather, next gen will be all about reflections, shadows and PBR... and sometimes GI.

once we get to that final stage, every single game that's 3D will benefit from full scene RT and every single game made with it should look great and realistically consistent.

also Dark1x i'm surprised DF hasn't looked into Project MARA yet

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I think as time goes on games will get worse and worse rasterized lighting as devs put less and less time into it.

PC gaming hasn't gone through these shifts in a while, but it has gone through them before. Heck, discrete GPUs was one such thing where eventually developers had to go sorry, you have to have a discrete GPU. Same with programmable shaders, which I think they mention in the video.

Click to shrink...

I expect rasterized lighting to not be a thing as of 2028 and lighting could be less work then, but for the near future, this is just going to be more work.

 

[Isee]

This seems like a really weird example. I don't remember Control looking like the left screenshot even on my PS4 Pro. I don't really buy this comparison shot, sorry.

I own a 2080 Ti if it helps my statement. I just want to point out that the leftmost example seems to purposely be made to look awful.

Click to shrink...

Found the area where this was made and got similar results. Or similar enough. It's the scene and way the light comes up from nearly above.

 

[Chettlar]

I expect rasterized lighting to not be a thing as of 2028 and lighting could be less work then, but for the near future, this is just going to be more work.

Click to shrink...

I mean the goal is to just like raytracing be simulated. So really the work would be in designing a game to make sure it works with both. And that's just mostly going to be iterative work. Yes it's more, but like I said, these transitions have happened before. They will always be painful for a bit.

 

[copelandmaster]

Found the area where this was made and got similar results. Or similar enough.

Click to shrink...

Something something
cashing that no-video check I see
something something

 

[Blade Wolf]

Another good video on the subject:



Goes into how it can make development simpler and quicker, too. This is going to be a huge game-changer next-gen.

Click to shrink...

Fascinating, can't believe I haven't subscribed to this guy.

 

[Chettlar]

Fascinating, can't believe I haven't subscribed to this guy.

Click to shrink...

Does a lot of very informative yet very accessible videos on various subjects. Just found him myself.

 

[trugc]

Remedy is indeed tying in specular and and diffuse from RT into nearly all of the shading, it is why when you do back and forths you see differences in hair and skin lighting. We asked them about cut off and Such in an Interview at Gamescom. You can see that really easily in the scene in the video when i stop the Camera while the gun is shooting. Control does not use a low roughness cut off like Battlefield V on Medium or low.

Click to shrink...

Do you mean diffuse indirect lighting? Cause I didn't see any difference in specular highlight. How do they handle ray tracing on highly rough surface without their SDF solution? Since I don't know there is any good way for low spp denoising on rough surface.

Their reflections are indeed importance sampled and not convolved Mip map (I do not think any shipping RT game has used convolved Mip map, i have only seen it in the mcguire paper), really obvious to see stretching on the marble floors where the janitor is or in they yellow tinted research/Prototype sector. I would Imagine the lengthening Fall off difference you see in that shot is due to denoising, Camera angle, but most importantly the contrast to the ssr screen. The ssr there is falling off into the SDF reflections, giving them the falll off look in comparison.


In my Initial Video on the launch Version of control, i Show how the importance sampling in dark scenes/stretch reflections causes the denoising to work worse and you get Pixel swimming.

Click to shrink...

Oh I notice such effects on metal surface in other areas. But still I think something is a bit wrong here. Maybe they are limiting sample range during vector generation?

 

[leng jai]

Dictator did you guys get a prerelease code for the second Metro Exodus expansion coming out next week?

 

[mogwai00]

Quake II RTX is amazing and all the Dicator coverage about it is spot on.

 

[Blade Wolf]

Honestly, I have mixed feeling about RTX.

On one hand I believe it should become the standard, but on the other hand I see it as frame rate killer, and you know I LOVE frame rate. I even made a thread talking about how I can't go back to 30fps anymore after playing 60fps games on the same console.

 

[Nooblet]

This seems like a really weird example. I don't remember Control looking like the left screenshot even on my PS4 Pro. I don't really buy this comparison shot, sorry.

I own a 2080 Ti if it helps my statement. I just want to point out that the leftmost example seems to purposely be made to look awful.

Click to shrink...

Not really.
Those shadow casting objects on her face are too small for shadow maps to work on and as such the result is always going to be flat lighting. This is one of the reasons why ingame lighting is often cited to be "harsh". One of the ways to counter this with rasterisation is to use screen space shadows, which Control doesn't seem to be using but what you see there is a legit comparison. However, even with screen space shadows the contoured look the soft edged shadows give her face is something you'd be missing.

 

[Dictator]

Do you mean diffuse indirect lighting? Cause I didn't see any difference in specular highlight. How do they handle ray tracing on highly rough surface without their SDF solution? Since I don't know there is any good way for low spp denoising on rough surface.


Oh I notice such effects on metal surface in other areas. But still I think something is a bit wrong here. Maybe they are limiting sample range during vector generation?

Click to shrink...

I mean the indirect Diffuse and RT reflections. SDF reflections are actually per default on with RT reflections in the game as I am positive they aid the ultra rough, extremely diffuse as you mention and more importabtly the appearance of a secondary bounce. The best way to see the effect of the reflection specular on skin in control is to go under an area light like source, like a White rectangle or stand in Front of a starkly lit White wall or something like that. Or a Computer Monitor in the game, then just Flick RT reflections on and off and no other RT effects. You should see such stark sources effect the skin pretty easily I think.

When in my Initial Video, when i toggle reflections on in the scene with chair and Phone you can see specular changing there even on some of the rougher surfaces.

Coming back to roughness, i actually think their denoiser is probably very responsible in killing off errant results due to low spp and then skewing the results. But I could just ask them via Email if they have the time to answer.

 

[Doctor Avatar]

That's quite the take indeed. Disappointing.

Click to shrink...

Indeed seeing master race nonsense from a mod is quite disappointing.

60fps is better than 30fps, sure. But ultimately a huge portion of the best games of the generation were 30fps.

It's not as important as the master race people will have you believe. A great game will still be great even if it's at 900p, 30FPS and has no RT. Just look at BoTW.

 

[Isee]

Something something
cashing that no-video check I see
something something

Click to shrink...

I have seriously no idea what any of this means.

 

[Dictator]

i-Lo
Thanks for the wonderful words. I keenly remember my antics at the old place and love of all Things cryengine being so incredibly annoying hahahaha

I hope my career continue in the directions it is currently going in - I love real time tech and feel blessed that I can talk about it for DF and Interview devs.
Much love

 

[copelandmaster]

I have seriously no idea what any of this means.

Click to shrink...

I was sarcastically making a jab at the "my PS4 Pro doesn't look like that!" people by jokingly implying that your screenshots were an equivalent to the so called shilling that people were accusing DF of in this thread.

 

[Blade Wolf]

Indeed seeing master race nonsense from a mod is quite disappointing.

60fps is better than 30fps, sure. But ultimately a huge portion of the best games of the generation were 30fps.

It's not as important as the master race people will have you believe.

Click to shrink...

Just because the best games are 30fps doesn't mean 30fps is acceptable. Don't tell me you don't want BOTW & Bloodborne in 60fps.

60fps is VERY important, and I'm saying that as a console gamer.

I can not imagine playing MGSV or Half-Life 2 in 30fps, the fact is 60fps makes things 10 times more enjoyable.

 

[Deleted member 30077]

Indeed seeing master race nonsense from a mod is quite disappointing.

60fps is better than 30fps, sure. But ultimately a huge portion of the best games of the generation were 30fps.

It's not as important as the master race people will have you believe.

Click to shrink...

This isn't what he was saying at all though. You're twisting his words.

 

[Ac30]

Full agree with Alex on Doom 3 RTX. This needs to happen. I'd also throw in there Unreal RTX (the first Unreal game).

Click to shrink...

Half life 2 with ray traced GI

🤤

 

[trugc]

I mean the indirect Diffuse and RT reflections. SDF reflections are actually per default on with RT reflections in the game as I am positive they aid the ultra rough, extremely diffuse as you mention and more importabtly the appearance of a secondary bounce. The best way to see the effect of the reflection specular on skin in control is to go under an area light like source, like a White rectangle or stand in Front of a starkly lit White wall or something like that. Or a Computer Monitor in the game, then just Flick RT reflections on and off and no other RT effects. You should see such stark sources effect the skin pretty easily I think.

When in my Initial Video, when i toggle reflections on in the scene with chair and Phone you can see specular changing there even on some of the rougher surfaces.

Coming back to roughness, i actually think their denoiser is probably very responsible in killing off errant results due to low spp and then skewing the results. But I could just ask them via Email if they have the time to answer.

Click to shrink...

I guess they are probably using something similar to what 4A games is doing in Metro Exodus, i.e. project diffuse lighting results onto SH and extract primary lighting direction as light vector for specular. As Remedy is doing multiple RT effects(AO, reflection, shadows, indirect diffuse), they have a tighter performance budget than any other shipped RTX game. In this way you can reuse RT diffuse lighting with very little performance overhead. I doubt accurate importance sampled RT + denoising works well under such case, given their denoising results and performance costs.

Actually I'm now more curious about their SDF solution, as you can do a lot of things with SDF as well(reflection, cheap shadowing, soft shadow).

 

[RoninStrife]

That's nice to say, but again - you're replying to this in a thread where the organization you work for just did a 20 minute ad. It's ridiculous to think the slightest suspicion of motivations (it's not a binary of corrupt/uncorrupt btw!) that are even hinted at when you decide to do that are inherently off-limits because you say have 'passion' for a certain industry.

I don't think you, or the DF team, are 'corrupt' and are inherently doing ads - at least outside of the scope of what tech 'journalists' do in general when they cover this industry. I'm just a consumer of your product voicing what I felt was a slight shift in tone in coverage over recent years that I feel has been apparent, at least to me. You exclaiming how much you love what you do is really beside the point (and, when you cover said industry - is that necessarily a positive?), when you make the choice to accept funds from the companies you critique - no matter how required it may be to remain functional as a business - you have compromised your objectivity. To what extent, if any? Who knows! But that's why journalists have ethics guidelines to avoid the perception of influence. I can't possibly know what's in your heart of hearts, the litmus test of objectivity isn't how loudly you proclaim how objective you are.

It would be great if this kind of thing wasn't required to produce these on the regular, the problem of journalistic independence is not new and how to actually achieve that without needing corporate profits on the regular vs. government meddling is damned tough (one of the many reasons I support a vastly increased welfare state is to to make independent journalism a more viable career path for example). So I have no problem with the claim that this is necessary to do the work you do, I accept that - but you also have to accept that accepting that, no matter how materially necessary it may be to keep the lights on - comes with an inherent cost of perceived impartiality.

Click to shrink...

This post makes a lot of sense, and I find myself agreeing 100%
I wish we lived in a perfect world where sites like DF could be impartial, or not require corporate funding, but.. but thats impossible.

Dark1x I know you say it's entertainment you are making, but understand the perception of Digital Foundry is that it is serious tech website, I certainly dont visit and read it for the entertainment, but factual reporting. It shocks me that the guys who run it dont view it as such.

 

[Doctor Avatar]

Just because the best games are 30fps doesn't mean 30fps is acceptable. Don't tell me you don't want BOTW & Bloodborne in 60fps.

60fps is VERY important, and I'm saying that as a console gamer.

I can not imagine playing MGSV or Half-Life 2 in 30fps, the fact is 60fps makes things 10 times more enjoyable.

Click to shrink...

I think the issue here is the hyperbole going on.

1) BOTW simply wouldn't exist at 60fps because it would never run as a large open world on the Switch. So would you rather simply not have the game exist at all?

2) If 30fps was "unacceptable" the games would not be considered good.

The fact that so many of the highest reviewed games of the generation (and of all time) are 30fps proves that it is acceptable and it is "good enough". Nobody is saying that 60fps wouldn't be better, but hyperbolic nonsense of 30fps games being "unacceptable" or "unplayable" is clearly not true.

Anyway, this thread is about RT, that's enough derailment.

 

[Dark1x]

This post makes a lot of sense, and I find myself agreeing 100%
I wish we lived in a perfect world where sites like DF could be impartial, or not require corporate funding, but.. but thats impossible.

Dark1x I know you say it's entertainment you are making, but understand the perception of Digital Foundry is that it is serious tech website, I certainly dont visit and read it for the entertainment, but factual reporting. It shocks me that the guys who run it dont view it as such.

Click to shrink...

That's my own personal view of myself, by the way. That's not true of the others. My passion is obviously focused on retro content and demonstrating how things are made. I view my videos more like mini-documentaries than reviews. I don't really post news - though I share my opinions on it. My goal is and always has been to make videos based on topics I find interesting. I want to help people learn more about games along the way. If I discover a device or technology that I genuinely think is cool and wind up purchasing myself, I want to talk about it. That's why I went on a CRT crusade last year - no company will sell you a new CRT, they aren't made any longer, but I wanted to talk about them as it's a topic that it's important to me.

The other stuff is somewhat different. I'm not the one that reviews graphics cards, for instance. That would likely fit what you're looking for. I think that's a strength - we all do our own unique content that differs from one another and we're all in full creative control of each one.

Could you explain how you perceive the process to work?I want to hear your thoughts on how topics are selected and videos are made to better see where people are coming from. I get the feeling that, when someone sees sponsored, they believe that the work process is somehow different or influenced somehow.

Maybe I should no longer be open about what's on my mind. I tend to share too much. I don't think people understand the impact these statements have. When you work in isolation and put in insane hours - what you make becomes a part of you. I don't think it's healthy to participate here in these cases.

 

[Dark1x]

That's nice to say, but again - you're replying to this in a thread where the organization you work for just did a 20 minute ad. It's ridiculous to think the slightest suspicion of motivations (it's not a binary of corrupt/uncorrupt btw!) that are even hinted at when you decide to do that are inherently off-limits because you say have 'passion' for a certain industry.

I don't think you, or the DF team, are 'corrupt' and are inherently doing ads - at least outside of the scope of what tech 'journalists' do in general when they cover this industry. I'm just a consumer of your product voicing what I felt was a slight shift in tone in coverage over recent years that I feel has been apparent, at least to me. You exclaiming how much you love what you do is really beside the point (and, when you cover said industry - is that necessarily a positive?), when you make the choice to accept funds from the companies you critique - no matter how required it may be to remain functional as a business - you have compromised your objectivity. To what extent, if any? Who knows! But that's why journalists have ethics guidelines to avoid the perception of influence. I can't possibly know what's in your heart of hearts, the litmus test of objectivity isn't how loudly you proclaim how objective you are.

It would be great if this kind of thing wasn't required to produce these on the regular, the problem of journalistic independence is not new and how to actually achieve that without needing corporate profits on the regular vs. government meddling is damned tough (one of the many reasons I support a vastly increased welfare state is to to make independent journalism a more viable career path for example). So I have no problem with the claim that this is necessary to do the work you do, I accept that - but you also have to accept that accepting that, no matter how materially necessary it may be to keep the lights on - comes with an inherent cost of perceived impartiality.

Click to shrink...

Alright, so what is it that you miss? What do you want to see that is no longer done? Can you select some examples?

I can't believe how much this bothers me. It really shouldn't. Maybe I should try to analyze why that is. I genuinely feel sick to my stomach re-reading that post. I really need help in dealing with critique, I think. I'm not well suited to handle it.

 

[Chettlar]

This post makes a lot of sense, and I find myself agreeing 100%
I wish we lived in a perfect world where sites like DF could be impartial, or not require corporate funding, but.. but thats impossible.

Dark1x I know you say it's entertainment you are making, but understand the perception of Digital Foundry is that it is serious tech website, I certainly dont visit and read it for the entertainment, but factual reporting. It shocks me that the guys who run it dont view it as such.

Click to shrink...

I guess I'm not understanding the problem here. DF are nerds. To them, this stuff, this education, this information, is fun and entertaining. They are not saying they are entertainers to give them leeway to be misleading. They take what they do very seriously, but it's also fun for them. They are not journalists in that they do not report on news or trends. Instead, they are interested in relaying accurate information about tech. Those have some overlap, but I feel like it's a clearly different pursuit.

I mean, linus tech tips goes HARD on Intel all the time, as many tech reviewers do, but Intel still sponsor some of his videos. These people are able to have a professional result from that, and they make sure to disclose sponsors because it's professional and good form (and also possibly a legal thing too).

Ultimately DF is a nerd entertainment channel. If you like gaming tech and performance analysis, you'll like what they do. They have a long track record of integrity, so I'm not sure why this concern is being brought up at all.

I feel like people complaining about this somehow think they are clever and I don't get it. Like, congrats? You noticed the Nvidia sponsorship that they purposely and verbally disclosed? Does that somehow invalidate what they are talking about? I don't actually think people are watching the video, because it is anything but a commercial for Nvidia. Yes it centers around something they are involved in, but it's very even handed. Again, this is something people everywhere do all the time.

Alright, so what is it that you miss? What do you want to see that is no longer done? Can you select some examples?

I can't believe how much this bothers me. It really shouldn't. Maybe I should try to analyze why that is. I genuinely feel sick to my stomach re-reading that post. I really need help in dealing with critique, I think. I'm not well suited to handle it.

Click to shrink...

This person is extremely ignorant, and you shouldn't listen to them, although I know that probably doesn't make you feel better.

They are ignoring years of credibility on your guys' part that you've established time and time again because they do not understand that professionalism exists. It is an extremely myopic view of how these deals work and I'm amazed more people aren't grilling them on that.

I feel like people are ignorantly jaded on the topic of capitalism and commercialism and so react by having these overly cynical and completely unfounded conclusions about how to read these situations. Like they cannot fathom that a company who was absolutely roasted by a reviewer would continue to do business with them, and think of like, conspiracies as to why that might happen. It comes from people who just have no experience in that space at all and cannot seem to fathom how it works and get all high and mighty.

The person you're responding to is probably a teenager anyway. And if they aren't...eeeeek.

 

[Isee]

I was sarcastically making a jab at the "my PS4 Pro doesn't look like that!" people by jokingly implying that your screenshots were an equivalent to the so called shilling that people were accusing DF of in this thread.

Click to shrink...

I see. Sorry, didn't click at all.

In general I think it is okay to be critical with sponsored content and reviews. It is, after all, some kind of paid advertisement. But accusing DF of blatantly forging screenshots, without even trying to give them the benefit of the doubt and checking yourself first is not good. I do not always agree with them and they made some mistakes before, but I'm still pretty sure that this kind of forgery is not something they'd even consider.

Is it a worst vs best kind of scenario, though? For sure. But that's fair enough if you want to make a point about something.

 

[Ste]

Great video and definitely shows some of the improvements we've seen since Ray tracing became available. It's a shame AMD haven't allowed it in the same way nvidia did on the 10 series as ray tracing is at its absolute beginning so would be good to let their cards have a look at some effects etc.

Id like doom 3 and half life 2 the orange box to have proper ray tracing updates as those two were game changers back my day.

Also crysis should be done properly too so we can continue to say "but can it run crysis?" "cough" "with ray tracing"

 

[RoninStrife]

That's my own personal view of myself, by the way. That's not true of the others. My passion is obviously focused on retro content and demonstrating how things are made. I view my videos more like mini-documentaries than reviews. I don't really post news - though I share my opinions on it. My goal is and always has been to make videos based on topics I find interesting. I want to help people learn more about games along the way. If I discover a device or technology that I genuinely think is cool and wind up purchasing myself, I want to talk about it. That's why I went on a CRT crusade last year - no company will sell you a new CRT, they aren't made any longer, but I wanted to talk about them as it's a topic that it's important to me.

The other stuff is somewhat different. I'm not the one that reviews graphics cards, for instance. That would likely fit what you're looking for. I think that's a strength - we all do our own unique content that differs from one another and we're all in full creative control of each one.

Could you explain how you perceive the process to work?I want to hear your thoughts on how topics are selected and videos are made to better see where people are coming from. I get the feeling that, when someone sees sponsored, they believe that the work process is somehow different or influenced somehow.

Click to shrink...

When the word Sponsored is used, it's for a specific goal in mind. Jimmy Fallon may be a huge Ninty fan, but thats not why he will bring Nintendo on his show showing the world the Switch.
So the word sponsored to me is another way of saying paid marketing. And I feel everyone indirectly believes it, but some are more guarded to it, or more receptive to it than others.
It's like that DF article with Richard where Microsoft flew him to Seattle to watch the Xbox One X being built etc. Was that factual writing, entertainment, or marketing? Or a bit of all the above?
Im just saying, my personal opinion, what generally is sponsored is a form of marketing one way or the other because what is being portrayed will always be done "shiny side up". Focusing only on a products core strengths, what is being marketed, and being very glass "half full" with reporting, not highlighting negative aspects, out of fear of dissuading a potential customer of said product to be turned off from buying it. Factual reporting does not care for the way a viewer perceives a product, they just want all or most of the facts to be known. EG: PS4 Pro and Xbox One X still had garbage Jag CPUs, were heavily bottlenecked, and games were never going to truly take advantage of the One X and Pro. Imagine if Richard mentioned that in a sponsored article like the one he was asked to cover and unveil the Xbox one X from MS HQ? So when I see sponsored, I generally dont expect to hear the full truth. Some facts, some spin, so half truths. And it isn't just an issue with any one site.. I think it's just the state of the gaming industry today and it's obsession with goodie bags things at large.Or maybe just the hope said companies will be willing to give a site the next big scoop or leak, if they get positive writing in return.

 

[Jobbs]

Era really can come off as a hive of ignorance and negativity.

 

[Black_Stride]

This seems like a really weird example. I don't remember Control looking like the left screenshot even on my PS4 Pro. I don't really buy this comparison shot, sorry.

I own a 2080 Ti if it helps my statement. I just want to point out that the leftmost example seems to purposely be made to look awful.

Click to shrink...

What are you saying exactly you think they purposely set the lighting to wack or something to prove a point?
Its a direct capture from the game....it proves Alex point and if you want boot up the game on your PS4Pro or on with you 2080Ti and check yourself.

How could they have made it look awful when it the exact same area as the right picture just without RT?

Tin hats in full effect?

ohh someone actually bothered doing the work v

Found the area where this was made and got similar results. Or similar enough. It's the scene and way the light comes up from nearly above.

Click to shrink...

Im not sure how people are still being such naysayers and/or being negative towards DF just cuz this is a Sponsored video and they think this is some Nvidia propaganda when the video discusses Nextgen consoles that are AMD based and DXR is available to all on Win10.

 

[icecold1983]

I only wish this video had more footage of metros emissive RT lighting. Otherwise its standard great work by Dictator

 

[Chettlar]

So the word sponsored to me is another way of saying paid marketing. And I feel everyone indirectly believes it, but some are more guarded to it, or more receptive to it than others.

Click to shrink...

And that is where you are wrong. It is not that simple, and represents a lack of experience on your part.

Yes it CAN mean that, but a lot of times it is simply used for exposure. For example, Gigabyte might sponsor a video about the history of motherboards, with no mention of them at all except a thank you for the sponsorship and MAYBE an ad at the end mentioning they have a new x570 board or something. The idea that this affects the validity of the video itself is specifically attacking the ability of the content creator, especially given this is a very normal, common thing, and plenty do it and still maintain integrity just fine.

This is EXTREMELY common in the tech world, especially on places like youtube where sponsored content is necessary.

DF have repeatedly demonstrated integrity in this arena.

Saying "well this says sponsored so that's like uh an advertisement right so that means you're compromised right?" is just really, really ignorant.

It also just doesn't allow for nuance. Like for example, it is ENTIRELY possible that Richard could make a video sponsored by Microsoft talking about how Xbox Series X does, oh I don't know, variable refresh rate or something idk, because Microsoft has that as a selling point, so it is in their interest to make sure people know from a reputable source what that is and why it's valuable. If that's an actually valuable thing, then Richard, who has established himself as a credible person, will go ahead and make said video. If it's not, he'll refuse and not make the video. You don't see that because...they turned down making the video. If the issue of jaguar CPUs came up, it is completely likely Richard would mention they are severely underpowered. If Microsoft and DF have a professional relationship, this is not a problem because both of them know DF lives and dies on it's credibility, and it would be extremely unprofessional of Microsoft to ask DF not to mention information vital to his work. I wish I knew what video it was in that Linue Tech Tips talks about this specifically and how some companies are more professional about it than others, and those who aren't, well, they don't work with them.

And what's even more annoying is how much this useless discussion is cluttering up a thread that ought to be about the topic of raytracing.

 

[Dark1x]

When the word Sponsored is used, it's for a specific goal in mind. Jimmy Fallon may be a huge Ninty fan, but thats not why he will bring Nintendo on his show showing the world the Switch.
So the word sponsored to me is another way of saying paid marketing. And I feel everyone indirectly believes it, but some are more guarded to it, or more receptive to it than others.
It's like that DF article with Richard where Microsoft flew him to Seattle to watch the Xbox One X being built etc. Was that factual writing, entertainment, or marketing? Or a bit of all the above?
Im just saying, my personal opinion, what generally is sponsored is a form of marketing one way or the other because what is being portrayed will always be done "shiny side up". Focusing only on a products core strengths, what is being marketed, and being very glass "half full" with reporting, not highlighting negative aspects, out of fear of dissuading a potential customer of said product to be turned off from buying it. Factual reporting does not care for the way a viewer perceives a product, they just want all or most of the facts to be known. EG: PS4 Pro and Xbox One X still had garbage Jag CPUs, were heavily bottlenecked, and games were never going to truly take advantage of the One X and Pro. Imagine if Richard mentioned that in a sponsored article like the one he was asked to cover and unveil the Xbox one X from MS HQ? So when I see sponsored, I generally dont expect to hear the full truth. Some facts, some spin, so half truths. And it isn't just an issue with any one site.. I think it's just the state of things today.

Click to shrink...

Ah, so that's the perception.

What you need to keep in mind mind, though, is that something is sponsored only when "sponsored" is appended to the title. That's it. If it's not there, it wasn't sponsored.

I also think that's taking an overly negative view. I did a sponsored piece of The Surge 2 that I'm super proud of but it's not designed to 'sell' the product, it was a behind the scenes look at the studio and their tools. I didn't review the product.

Sponsorship DOES NOT mean paid marketing. I think you are not completely familiar with what it means, really, and you're not alone.

That said, you're highlighting a worry for me - that the content I like to make isn't what you care about. We clearly have an issue where only a percentage of the audience cares about certain things. I wish I could do Retro content full time so that everyone subscribed was there specifically for that. That's what I care about most these days but it doesn't sound like you're into that at all. Which just means we're focused on very different things.

If you've followed me, you'd see that I don't really care about towing the company line. So many are pushing cloud gaming and streaming but I've been super opposed to it and very vocal about it. I don't say things I don't believe.