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Belthazar90

Banned
Jun 3, 2019
4,316
Yeah, it looks fairly nice... but with how much resources it'll use? I'd rather see how developers can use those resources to achieve a better framerate/resolution, honestly. The trade-off is just not worth it for me, as there's more noticeable improvements to be made about how a game looks/runs than what RT can achieve.
 

gabdeg

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,956
🐝
Raytracing is good imo
Can't wait to play the next Metro DLC with it enabled
Control may be the most complete package but Metro is still the single most impressive implementation to me. It just absolutely transforms some scenes while fixing glaring issues with rasterized rendering. I really hope next-gen console hardware RT will be robust enough to handle GI.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,853
LKbtvri.png
No doubt Ray Tracing is a game changer but this reminds me of the Direct x 9 vs 10 bullshit from years ago.

04-1-704x1024.jpg
 

Tagyhag

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,472
It's going to be a bummer then, knowing that you could improve performance by like 50% if you weren't stuck with RTX as a default.

That's not how it'll work, as the tools, engine, and hardware get better the performance hit will be less and less.

Compare early 2000's AA x8 to SMAA.
 

Monster Zero

Member
Nov 5, 2017
5,612
Southern California
Raytracing is good imo
Can't wait to play the next Metro DLC with it enabled
Control may be the most complete package but Metro is still the single most impressive implementation to me. It just absolutely transforms some scenes while fixing glaring issues with rasterized rendering. I really hope next-gen console hardware RT will be robust enough to handle GI.

Yeah Metro is my favorite and that's was before the DLC decided to add raytraced emissive lighting on top on the raytraced GI.
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
Anyone saying "but sponsored content"
Was the Sponsored Video header always on that video, though? I'm pretty sure it wasn't when initially released.

I'm glad DF is putting it out there clearly now at least, but gotta say DF has seemingly transitioned from a go-to site for comparing platform releases to a somewhat more 'advertorial' vein in the past year imo.
Do you have proof of this?

Cuz I think we've done maybe 2-3 sponsored videos in the last year yet, between the four of us, we made 273 videos. Logitech did a general sponsor for one month but this has zero impact on the videos. So, where is this advertorial content exactly?

I don't think it's fair to make such a statement without backing it up with actual examples of what you perceive to fit this description. Especially since, if you didn't realize, we all work remotely from our homes in different countries.

What I can say is that doing these occasional sponsored videos is precisely the kind of thing that allows us to actually do OK and create more content we want to create like DF Retro.

I was getting the feeling that Digital Foundry was getting sponsered by Nivida tbh.
Oh yes, one video.

If it doesn't say "SPONSORED" in the title then it's not sponsored. Got it?
 

TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,136
No doubt Ray Tracing is a game changer but this reminds me of the Direct x 9 vs 10 bullshit from years ago.

04-1-704x1024.jpg
Why? It's not like this is some target render.

This is actually what the game looks like. It's staggering all the time. Even subtle scenes that don't seem crazy in screenshots, your eyes are used to seeing real life, they can tell the difference
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
No doubt Ray Tracing is a game changer but this reminds me of the Direct x 9 vs 10 bullshit from years ago.

04-1-704x1024.jpg
See, and this shows how wrong you are. That was a commercial shot generated by marketing, right?

The ray tracing shot? That was made by Alex. There was no input from Nvidia or anyone else.
 

Jiraiya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,279
It's going to be a bummer then, knowing that you could improve performance by like 50% if you weren't stuck with RTX as a default.

So i guess we're only getting 15 and 30 fps games next gen. Wrap it up folks...that 50 percent is set in stone across all devs and their engines and we're in for not so good generation.

Cause you know...devs have never shown the ability to improve technology.
 

Moebius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,384
Yeah, it looks fairly nice... but with how much resources it'll use? I'd rather see how developers can use those resources to achieve a better framerate/resolution, honestly. The trade-off is just not worth it for me, as there's more noticeable improvements to be made about how a game looks/runs than what RT can achieve.

Better framerate and resolution is not going to make a game look that much better. Ray tracing is a major game changer. You really have to play with it to understand. Realistic lighting makes games look WAY better. It makes everything look more realistic. Obviously going from 1080p to 4k is going to make the image sharp but it won't make the lighting better. Trust me when I say that light matters.

It's going to be a bummer then, knowing that you could improve performance by like 50% if you weren't stuck with RTX as a default.

Did you watch the video? It started off as a 50% reduction, then was improved almost immediately. There's no 50% hit anymore and the technology will improve to make it even better.
 

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,602
It's likely in specific lighting circumstances that the rasterized approach breaks down, that's one of the drawbacks to use multiple lighting rasterized 'hacks' you need to approximate what ray tracing gives you - lack of consistency. You can pick and choose areas where rasterized vs. ray tracing looks very comparable, and ones where the differences are more drastic. So yes, the screenshot was chosen specifically to show this scenario and you may feel that's unfair to reflect how Control looks 'on the whole', but it does serve the point I think in that it illustrates how ray tracing doesn't break down so easily.

Quantum Break was the same way. There are certain screenshots you can pick where it looks pre-rendered at times, then you can come across a lighting situation where the protagonist looks like a mannequin.

Ok that makes sense and is not quite as terrible as a comparison then. Well, I guess I can't call that cherry picked exactly if they are just trying to demonstrate the two extremes. Just looks super jarring as the game hardly ever looks that bad I would say lol

Ray tracing seems to be the real deal from what I have seen so far. I will take 60 frames instead of 120 to get the lighting, reflections and such it brings to the table. I say that as someone who loves high frames.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
This was a very good video. I find myself watching Digital Foundry's content more and more as an empirical analysis of a world that mostly doesn't concern itself with the truth. Video games are serious business :)
 

TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,136
Since people seem to think it's not a big difference. I don't have my own shot, I don't have a PS4 version of Control sitting here, but like a dozen PS4 playthroughs nobody I've seen has even stopped to look down at the Ordinary town model in the game, because it looks completely unremarkable like a random nothing room

g5oJorK.png


This is the PS4 area where you can look down at the Fayden house model. Ignore the image quality, it's a youtube video on pause, but like, no fucking wonder nobody in these videos stops to see what is going on there. It looks like just some random room

KLU763W.png


This is my screenshot with RTX on of the same place, the reflections are IMMEDIATELY apparent when you walk in, and the glowing red house below is striking and instantly caught my eye. It's unmissable.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
It's Certainly a cool tech, but it's not the be all and end all of video game graphics, especially in the next generation.
 

Yogi

Banned
Nov 10, 2019
1,806
If it doesn't say "SPONSORED" in the title then it's not sponsored. Got it?

I got that but relationships need grooming. And I respect that it's mentioned that it's a sponsered video, however I remember DF articles that I relied on for tweaking settings previously recommending turning down the shadows and reflections to save performance but now it's the opposite. I understand it can greatly transform a game, especially one with poorly faked lighting but sometimes the benefits are barely there and it's not being pointed out like in other comparison videos.

In the Doom thread people were asking about RTX and were being ignored while it has been a big part of the DF videos up until then.

The performance impact is massive. Games supporting RTX will limit the advancement of game graphics in other ways that might have more impact. Next-gen consoles which have twice the gpu power will need to spend a whole chunk of that on limited raytracing. Sometimes that raytracing doesn't even make the scene look better at all while chomping away at the framerate. Sometimes it makes it look worse because they couldn't turn it up much higher due to performance limitations.

It feels like Nvidia didn't give us enough power to cope with RTX sufficiently. I hope that changes massively with the RTX 30XX series but I'm worried about what it means for next-gen if this is the hardware we have. Hopefully AMD can give the consoles more to work with.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
I literally don't understand this resistance to RT that some members here have.

The thing is though there isn't resistance to RT, people twist people not thinking RT is some real time game graphics revolution into "resisting RT"
RT in games like control is undoubtedly better looking, but so are other visuals settings.
Some ppl act like RT is a next gen leap, it's not even close to uncharted 3 to uncharted 4.
 

Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,199
dying-light-2-rtx.jpg


I know which one I prefer.

The left certainly has more details revealed, but the right one is actually more atmospheric, if less realistic.

"adoption has been wide spread"

Next line lists the 5 shipped games that support RTX.


Ehhhh. Its sponsored content. What are you gonna do.

Been saying since release that it was Hairworks 2.0. Maybe it will finally become more than that if the new consoles actually end up implementing it, but I wonder how many developers that don't have gigantic budgets and 200+ member teams for AAA games will be using it.
 

Max|Payne

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,948
Portugal
The thing is though there isn't resistance to RT, people twist people not thinking RT is some real time game graphics revolution into "resisting RT"
RT in games like control is undoubtedly better looking, but so are other visuals settings.
Some ppl act like RT is a next gen leap, it's not even close to uncharted 3 to uncharted 4.
I need to ask. Do you know what Ray tracing is?
 

Lukemia SL

Member
Jan 30, 2018
9,384
Aloy from Horizon ZD is the only character I can think of which has self shadowing on the face during gameplay. Kratos doesn't have self shadowing in gameplay, Nathan Drake doesn't.

It makes such a huge difference.
maxresdefault.jpg

horizonzerodawn_20170l8jhd.jpg

great pics, Drake and Kratos most certainly do self shadow during gameplay

All you lot bringing up PS4 characters are gonna have VFX Veteren big mad on private mode.
 

Flappy Pannus

Member
Feb 14, 2019
2,340
Anyone saying "but sponsored content"

Do you have proof of this?

Cuz I think we've done maybe 2-3 sponsored videos in the last year yet, between the four of us, we made 273 videos. Logitech did a general sponsor for one month but this has zero impact on the videos. So, where is this advertorial content exactly?

I chose my words specifically to denote the difference between my perception of generally less 'critical' coverage vs outright accusing you of being paid shills. This is what I actually wrote:

somewhat more 'advertorial' vein in the past year imo.

That does not mean I am implying all of your content is all sponsored. If I thought that, I would have just said it. The use of quotation marks and 'vein' means that I'm finding the content of DF is seemingly less critical and comparative than in the early days, there's far more 20-30 minute videos (that I feel are somewhat padded) that are more of a somewhat promotional style of particular products. Part of that may just be due to the better production values, sure, and a part of that is just the inherent nature of the tech industry which I've always been critical of.

I don't think it's fair to make such a statement without backing it up with actual examples of what you perceive to fit this description. Especially since, if you didn't realize, we all work remotely from our homes in different countries.
Your geographic location disparity has no relation to my comment, so I'm wondering what is even the point of it unless you're implying I think you're all meeting with industry execs in a smoke filled room underneath a single lightbulb and unless that comical scenario is re-enacted fully then you're beyond slight critique. Come on.
What I can say is that doing these occasional sponsored videos is precisely the kind of thing that allows us to actually do OK and create more content we want to create like DF Retro.
Look, when you do what is in effect, a 20 minute ad for what people expect is an unbiased review site - even if you label it - you're going to have to accept that some slight pushback is going to come. To be frank I'm not entirely surprised by this response as I've noticed the DF crew can be somewhat reactionary to critique on here at times (and yes, I am positive you get tons of shit from trolls as well).

But hey - you're not drilling ice cores in the arctic guys, and neither am I - we're all doing corporate promotion on here to an extent when we talk in detail about the toys we like. You need to do that at times more overtly to pay the bills? Fine! But don't present it as some sort of personal sacrifice where critique of that end product is inherently off-limits and presenting this strawman that anyone voicing their objection to what they perceive as a slight shift in style means you're winking and accepting a burlap sack with a dollar sign stamped on it from MS/Sony.
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
I got that but relationships need grooming. And I respect that it's mentioned that it's a sponsered video, however I remember DF articles that I relied on for tweaking settings previously recommending turning down the shadows and reflections to save performance but now it's the opposite. I understand it can greatly transform a game, especially one with poorly faked lighting but sometimes the benefits are barely there and it's not being pointed out like in other comparison videos.

In the Doom thread people were asking about RTX and were being ignored while it has been a big part of the DF videos up until then.

The performance impact is massive. Games supporting RTX will limit the advancement of game graphics in other ways that might have more impact. Next-gen consoles which have twice the gpu power will need to spend a whole chunk of that on limited raytracing. Sometimes that raytracing doesn't even make the scene look better at all while chomping away at the framerate. Sometimes it makes it look worse because they couldn't turn it up much higher due to performance limitations.

It feels like Nvidia didn't give us enough power to cope with RTX sufficiently. I hope that changes massively with the RTX 30XX series but I'm worried about what it means for next-gen if this is the hardware we have. Hopefully AMD can give the consoles more to work with.
It hasn't been a part of my videos, now has it? Who made that Doom video? The RTX question was answers in the interview - it's not available at launch. That's all there is to say on it.

I think you don't understand how these sponsorships work, though. It's not something we're facilitating on our own 99% of the time.

...and once such a deal is made, the content is produced in isolation. They have no say in terms of what goes in.
 

Buff Beefbroth

Chicken Chaser
Member
Apr 12, 2018
3,011
The thing is though there isn't resistance to RT, people twist people not thinking RT is some real time game graphics revolution into "resisting RT"
RT in games like control is undoubtedly better looking, but so are other visuals settings.
Some ppl act like RT is a next gen leap, it's not even close to uncharted 3 to uncharted 4.

It is a next gen leap.

Do you seriously not think the tech isn't going to evolve?

Yes, when everything is ray traced, but that is a gen or 2 after next.

And how do you think we get there?
 

Yogi

Banned
Nov 10, 2019
1,806
And how do you think we get there?

By Nvidia/AMD releasing hardware that can actually support that.

It's great that devs can practice with it now but I'm tired of current gen games as is.

Where I think it will really benefit games is those that are absolutely massive that would take too long to fake every corner to a decent level. And where the framerate isn't that important to the game experience. It doesn't need to be in every game next gen. I certainly hope it isn't unless it transforms the game. Or the implementation is worthy of the performance sacrifice - or other things that could have made use of it.

If it leads to devs not even faking the lighting decently, so if we wanted higher fps and turned off the RTX we get lighting that is worse than what's currently possible that would suck.

Raytracing is the future, no doubt. And just having raytracing on the box/trailer next-gen means very little at this stage. In fact, it could even be a negative.
 
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Max|Payne

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,948
Portugal
Lmao, remember when Crysis 1 gave us the definitive AO technique right then and there. It certainly wasn't improved upon over the years...

Jeez, some people...
 

GameAddict411

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,513
The thing is though there isn't resistance to RT, people twist people not thinking RT is some real time game graphics revolution into "resisting RT"
RT in games like control is undoubtedly better looking, but so are other visuals settings.
Some ppl act like RT is a next gen leap, it's not even close to uncharted 3 to uncharted 4.
That's a very short cited view you got there. What we see now in games is just the beginning. Things will dramatically get better as game developer find ways to make ray tracing less expensive and also integrate them in their visual design. Control is the only game where I felt like the developers actually made a huge effort to make it stand out. The game looks bland without it.
 

Firefly

Member
Jul 10, 2018
8,620
The thing is though there isn't resistance to RT, people twist people not thinking RT is some real time game graphics revolution into "resisting RT"
RT in games like control is undoubtedly better looking, but so are other visuals settings.
Some ppl act like RT is a next gen leap, it's not even close to uncharted 3 to uncharted 4.
You do realize RT affects many visual settings?
 

leng jai

Member
Nov 2, 2017
15,117
Most people complaining about RTX probably haven't even properly played a game with it enabled yet. I knew this thred was going to be a shit show as soon as I saw the video was sponsored.8
 

Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,537
Its a good Video but the reaction in this forum shows once again why its really not a good idea for supposedly independent Journalists to produce sponsored content. They just lose credibility. As a Journalist, you cant get paid by and work for the people you are supposed to report on or you are simply a very competent marketer.
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
I chose my words specifically to denote the difference between my perception of generally less 'critical' coverage vs outright accusing you of being paid shills. This is what I actually wrote:



That does not mean I am implying all of your content is all sponsored. If I thought that, I would have just said it. The use of quotation marks and 'vein' means that I'm finding the content of DF is seemingly less critical and comparative than in the early days, there's far more 20-30 minute videos (that I feel are somewhat padded) that are more of a somewhat promotional style of particular products. Part of that may just be due to the better production values, sure, and a part of that is just the inherent nature of the tech industry which I've always been critical of.


Your geographic location disparity has no relation to my comment, so I'm wondering what is even the point of it unless you're implying I think you're all meeting with industry execs in a smoke filled room underneath a single lightbulb and unless that comical scenario is re-enacted fully then you're beyond slight critique. Come on.

Look, when you do what is in effect, a 20 minute ad for what people expect is an unbiased review site - even if you label it - you're going to have to accept that some slight pushback is going to come. To be frank I'm not entirely surprised by this response as I've noticed the DF crew can be somewhat reactionary to critique on here at times (and yes, I am positive you get tons of shit from trolls to boot).

But hey - you're not drilling ice cores in the arctic guys, and neither am I - we're all doing corporate promotion on here to an extent when we talk in detail about the toys we like. You need to do that at times more overtly to pay the bills? Fine! But don't present it as some sort of personal sacrifice where critique of that end product is inherently off-limits and any presenting this strawman that anyone voicing their objection to what they perceive as a slight shift in style means you're winking and accepting a burlap sack with a dollar sign stamped on it from MS/Sony.
It angers me because what you're saying is so off base in terms of why the content is made. That's the issue. You know why I make those types of videos? Because I enjoy making them. That's it. I want to educate and create that type of content. Any implication that content is made to help someone else sell something is so damn insulting that it seriously makes me want to throw up my hands and quit. It's so against what I'm trying to do and it's so disrespectful.

Look, I apologize for being so blunt but what you're saying is extremely bothersome to me as it runs in direct opposition to everything I stand for.
 

StudioTan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,836
The "coated in oil" look that so many of the RTX games get (where many surfaces have has a weird-perfect reflection on it) is probably more distracting to me. None of the non-RTX images have what I would consider to be bad lighting though......you can see the improvements in a side-by-side comparison, but probably less so in a scenario where you're just playing a game and not doing a direct comparison.

All this post tells me is you don't really understand what ray tracing is or how it affects everything in the scene. I'm not sure what "coated in oil" look you're talking about but RTX is not just about reflections at all. It's ALL the lighting and shadows in a scene.
 

GameAddict411

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,513
I am also shocked to see the amount of negativity in this thread regarding the sponsorship. People seem like to always assume ulterior motives when they see content that they somehow dismiss because they can't access this technology now. I will always assume that DF will be the last place to be selling out, and if it was, it will be apparent in the video. And after watching the video I can definitely say that Alex is doing amazing job as usual.