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Xx 720

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,920
If true, I think MS is over engineering, for any console 499 is niche and above that you may as well build a kick ass PC. I'd actually question if PS 5 is possible @399 due to the ssd, fairly high end cpu gpu and ram. With Switch at 299, I can't imagine getting way newer tech at just 100 over
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,760
Exactly.

This is not a apples/apples comparison, but I have a 2080ti running at 2.1ghz and I have a custom Water cooling set up to keep it nice and cool even at full load which at max in my testing has hit 51c. Now the PS5 will have the GPU and CPU on a single chip...in order for them to have the GPU portion running at 2ghz would require some massive cooling method. Again, I know this is NOT a apples-to-apples comparison...but it takes a lot of serious cooling to keep it nice and toasty. I think 2ghz at the 36cu's is asking a lot and they would need some really awesome cooling or case design to keep that sucker under control and not taking flight because the fan is spinning up so fast.

The Series X case design was made first and foremost to keep it cool and quiet and they had to go to a radical case design to achieve this. We don't know if they are using vapor chamber in addition to a unique case design, but the physical look of the Series X was made for cooling in mind in addition to what is under the hood for the actual cooling mechanism. It will be interesting to see what Sony has come up with. All I want is a PS5 that runs relatively quiet...it does not have to be whisper quiet like my Xbox One X, but I just hope it does not reach PS4 PRO levels of noise.

You can look at the clocks the 5700 series hits as well. Makes the thought of the rumored specs being the "easy" route seem laughable, IMO.

Really don't think that'll have the impact you think it will.

But announcing multiplayer is free for all? Might be a different ball game.

Eventually more people will start asking why PC players use Live for free, so yeah, make MP free and find more/better ways to ensure GP growth.
 

Zones

Member
Oct 28, 2017
293
With overall upgrade in power especially in CPU and SSD, the continued use of x86 as the architecture, and the scalability that engines have gotten, it's won't be as big an issue next gen as it was last gens.
It clearly won't be an issue at all if we're talking about Lockhart, in fact, it's a genius move from Microsoft!

However, if we're talking about PS5/9.2TF, then the difference with Series X will be a massive issue.

Pre-order cancelled.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
I'm pretty sure devs can max out Series X and scale down as needed and I'm pretty sure I don't even care.

And this is all assuming Lockhart even exists.

Yeah, technically Lockhart existing is on the same level as some insiders claiming the PS5 was more powerful.

But I think it will materialise.
 

Y2Kev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,865
What if it's only 9 terabytes because it will be a hybrid?

PS5

PSV

PSVita

Hmm makes you think
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
It clearly won't be an issue at all if we're talking about Lockhart, in fact, it's a genius move from Microsoft!

However, if we're talking about PS5/9.2TF, then the difference with Series X will be a massive issue.

Pre-order cancelled.
I think the overall upgrade in power next gen, especially the CPU and SSD (like I said) will make the differences between the two damn near meaningless as all the games should look and run great.
 

Wollan

Mostly Positive
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,816
Norway but living in France
Likely this is true and the final specs and I expect:
1. A price difference between PS5 and Xbox Series X.
2. Sony will make a point about PS5 being the baseline that exclusive games are designed towards (not a Series S/Lockhart anchor in their ecosystem).
3. Sony will likely surprise us on SSD read speeds and be quite ahead of the competition (X has nice speed in their specs but it's 'off the shelf').

edit:
After reading further elaborations it seems unlikely that Sony would want to clock the GPU to 2.0 ghz as the cooling & power-supply necessary would increase costs defeating the purpose.
 
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chromatic9

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,003
If this proves true Spencer should go on stage at E3 and tear Sony apart. "Sony has the weaker system, and if you want your multiplatform console games to have no compromises then buy an Xbox."

Phil should come out on stage to 20 Fingers feat Gillette - Short Dick Man and we say got 12 tflops, we ain't coming up short this gen.
 

Deleted member 13645

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,052
If true, I think MS is over engineering, for any console 499 is niche and above that you may as well build a kick ass PC. I'd actually question if PS 5 is possible @399 due to the ssd, fairly high end cpu gpu and ram. With Switch at 299, I can't imagine getting way newer tech at just 100 over

There's a significant amount of people who have no desire to build a PC or deal with PC gaming. Buying a box, plugging it in and having everything handled for you is way more convenient. I PC game a lot, but I really enjoy the convenience of consoles. Someone who just wants to play the most recent Call of Duty or Madden each year and has money to spend isn't going to start researching parts to build a PC. They're going to buy a console.
 

bsigg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,559
If true, I think MS is over engineering, for any console 499 is niche and above that you may as well build a kick ass PC. I'd actually question if PS 5 is possible @399 due to the ssd, fairly high end cpu gpu and ram. With Switch at 299, I can't imagine getting way newer tech at just 100 over

You have to figure half the cost of the Switch locked up in the form factor when looking at prices for Nvidia Shield TV prices.

I'd really like to see you build a PC that comes in around Series X performance between ~$500-600

There's nothing happening so far on the PS5 side of things that screams Sony has to go $499. I fully expect it to launch at $399 and be received as a killer price for the hardware.
 

bytesized

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,882
Amsterdam
If this E3 multiplatform games are looking noticeably better on Xbox Series X than in PS5 then I'd be worried if I was Sony. And if, on top of that, Microsoft shows a theoretical Series S, cheaper than the PS5, but without many compromises in respect to PS5 then Sony should be VERY worried. I don't mean "Microsoft will become market leader" level of worry, of course, but I could see Microsoft splitting the market 50/50 with Sony.
 

Zones

Member
Oct 28, 2017
293
I think the overall upgrade in power next gen, especially the CPU and SSD (like I said) will make the differences between the two damn near meaningless as all the games should look and run great.
I don't think you caught my sarcasm.

Anyway, you're absolutely correct, and in most cases, the difference between all these various SKUs and platforms will be in resolution only.

And after a certain point, resolution becomes the most wasteful element of using GPU resource.
 

leng jai

Member
Nov 2, 2017
15,119
30% is insignificant because of how poorly developers allocate resources when it comes to console games - as everyone is saying it's likely going to scale entirely resolution. On PC where you can use the power for any setting you want a 30% increase in GPU power is pretty huge.

So if these figures turn out to be true the real world difference is likely going to be 1800p vs native 4K which isn't that big of a deal really.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
So there is the possibility that Sony enabled 2 of 4 the CUs they had disabled, if they did and went with a 2.1GHz clock on the GPU, they would have 38CU @ 2.1GHz for 10.2TFLOPs, which comes in at 15% weaker than a 12TFLOPs Navi GPU.

If insiders are right that this leak isn't an indication of final hardware, that is how Sony would have to get there.
 

plagiarize

It's not a loop. It's a spiral.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,560
Cape Cod, MA
So there is the possibility that Sony enabled 2 of 4 the CUs they had disabled, if they did and went with a 2.1GHz clock on the GPU, they would have 38CU @ 2.1GHz for 10.2TFLOPs, which comes in at 15% weaker than a 12TFLOPs Navi GPU.

If insiders are right that this leak isn't an indication of final hardware, that is how Sony would have to get there.
That's plausible, and I wouldn't be surprised, but I'd keep in mind that 'this isn't an indication of final hardware' isn't confirmation that this isn't what the final hardware will look like. Just that this isn't confirmation of final specs.
 

DukeBlueBall

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,059
Seattle, WA
So there is the possibility that Sony enabled 2 of 4 the CUs they had disabled, if they did and went with a 2.1GHz clock on the GPU, they would have 38CU @ 2.1GHz for 10.2TFLOPs, which comes in at 15% weaker than a 12TFLOPs Navi GPU.

If insiders are right that this leak isn't an indication of final hardware, that is how Sony would have to get there.

Idk if they can have unbalanced shader engines like that. 9 enabled WGP in one SE and 10 in the other. That's possible.

I think it's more likely for them to enable for 40CUs if the yields are good.

40CU at 2.1GHZ would beat Stadia's 10.7TF.
 

Metalmucil

Member
Aug 17, 2019
1,380
So there is the possibility that Sony enabled 2 of 4 the CUs they had disabled, if they did and went with a 2.1GHz clock on the GPU, they would have 38CU @ 2.1GHz for 10.2TFLOPs, which comes in at 15% weaker than a 12TFLOPs Navi GPU.

If insiders are right that this leak isn't an indication of final hardware, that is how Sony would have to get there.

I don't mean any disrespect at all. You obviously know what you are talking about, I'm am not questioning that. No sarcasm intended and I am not saying you are wrong or discounting you. This post is genuinely just about me finding something funny, not about you or what you are saying.

Your post is totally giving me MisterXMedia flashbacks and I'm finding it way funnier than I should.
 

Ocean Bones

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
4,725
I'll wait to see what the corporations put out. Sony caught everyone by surprise last time, everyone.

I Remember ps4 was going to be 4gb ddr3 ram at best, because people at the time only had 8gbs in their home pc's lol. Oh and all the rumors that turned out to be nonsense.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
30% is insignificant because of how poorly developers allocate resources when it comes to console games - as everyone is saying it's likely going to scale entirely resolution. On PC where you can use the power for any setting you want a 30% increase in GPU power is pretty huge.

So if these figures turn out to be true the real world difference is likely going to be 1800p vs native 4K which isn't that big of a deal really.

In total pixel terms, 2160p (4K) is actually 44% more pixels than 1800p, whereas this rumoured performance difference would put the Series X at 30% more powerful than the PS5. Such a performance difference would translate to the PS5 likely being closer to something like 1890p vs the Series X's 2160p, which if you add checkerboarding on top, may lend to very little real world detail difference between the two.

But its difficult to say without knowing more about the specs or the other system specifics, eg ram, ram bandwidth or speed, SSD or storage speed, CPU set up, hardware ray tracing features and so on.

Ray tracing in particular is extremely demanding, so if one of these systems has a custom feature or hardware to massively help with ray tracing beyond just the raw gpu tflop performance, that might make more of a difference to games and performance than this GPU performance gulf.
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
I agree, but the problem we (enthusiasts) are in currently is we still have no 100% concrete confirmation of the TF number for either console being "GCN flops" or "RDNA flops". And no, Phil Spencer retweeting a link to an article that at one point speculates it could be RDNA flops doesn't count as a company confirming it. If it was so, they would say so. They would have already said it. You're right though in that it's at least supposedly confirmed as being higher than Stadia's 10.7.

I think the safer route is to just do the standard "how many flops" math of clockspeed x CU's x whatever to get the number, and then confirm what architecture. If it's GCN, then the number is what it is. If it's an RDNA or RDNA 2 chip, then we inflate that number because apparently the bare math doesn't tell the whole story.

tl;dr only MS is in the position of "marketing" their new box yet, and even they haven't come out and declared X number of TF's and which metric (GCN or RDNA) we should be applying to said number. So since a leak is just bare data on paper, that's not enough information to go by, and Sony isn't even in the marketing mode for PS5 yet, so the perception of that number doesn't matter to them. When they're finally in that "Tease n Talk" mode they may surprise us and either say "it is 9.2TF but it's RDNA, so technically that makes it 12TF RDNA" or something, or they could say yeah, the 9.2TF is in RDNA flops, or hell, they could tell us those are old numbers or from a test box and they have a completely different speed and CU setup now. Who knows.

(sorry for the rant)

You are not wrong and in fact, I too have wondered as to why MS have not simply openly touted their TF number. It may or may not be 12TF RDNA but, given what MS have openly claimed during reveal (i.e. 2x One X) will surely have a GPU will perform as good as if not better than 12 TF GCN GPU (with all the new HW features missing from X's Polaris(?)).

With regards to calculation, there is no inflating things. It is what it is, a Flop is a fixed unit of computational power. Calculation is still based on No. of CU * 64 * 2 * Frequency in GHz. No. of CU times 64 provides us with the no. of Stream Processors (SP) and so if you have that you can simply skip to multiplying it by 2 and the product by Frequency.

The proof lies in the pudding and when it comes to marketing. If MS does have the largest GPU TF figure, they will tout it (and they should) alongside said pudding (demos). Sony will do their bit to highlight their bespoke HW strengths and show off one of their prepared demos.

Once the consoles are out in the wild, how it plays out with third party developers is of personal interest. Objectively speaking, unless XseX features some unseen and significant bottleneck, it should handily outperform PS5 versions, on paper. Because of the aforementioned features like VRS, CB as well dynamic resolution scaling solution, that advantage in motion may not be as pronounced. At least, that's my estimation.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
That's plausible, and I wouldn't be surprised, but I'd keep in mind that 'this isn't an indication of final hardware' isn't confirmation that this isn't what the final hardware will look like. Just that this isn't confirmation of final specs.
This chip costs a lot of money to make, test and configure, also the DF video didn't go over it, but the code number for the chip is the same format as other Sony hardware, with digital foundry verifying the leak, I think it should be taken as final silicon until something else unlikely shows up.
Idk if they can have unbalanced shader engines like that. 9 enabled WGP in one SE and 10 in the other. That's possible.

I think it's more likely for them to enable for 40CUs if the yields are good.

40CU at 2.1GHZ would beat Stadia's 10.7TF.
It's possible, and some insiders are saying that the PS5 is above 10.5TFLOPs, though it is worth mentioning that Stadia is using Vega (GCN) architecture, ie Vega 56 GPUs, so the 9.2TFLOPs here would easily out perform Stadia.

I don't mean any disrespect at all. You obviously know what you are talking about, I'm am not questioning that. No sarcasm intended and I am not saying you are wrong or discounting you. This post is genuinely just about me finding something funny, not about you or what you are saying.

Your post is totally giving me MisterXMedia flashbacks and I'm finding it way funnier than I should.
I don't know who that is, I'm not really someone who generally likes Sony hardware, so I don't really care, but if all these insiders have any inkling of being right, that's the only possible solution I can think of, Sony isn't going to design and test multiple chips of silicon for one console sku, it just costs way too much to abandon this one.
 

CatAssTrophy

Member
Dec 4, 2017
7,632
Texas
You are not wrong and in fact, I too have wondered as to why MS have not simply openly touted their TF number. It may or may not be 12TF RDNA but, given what MS have openly claimed during reveal (i.e. 2x One X) will surely have a GPU will perform as good as if not better than 12 TF GCN GPU (with all the new HW features missing from X's Polaris(?)).

With regards to calculation, there is no inflating things. It is what it is, a Flop is a fixed unit of computational power. Calculation is still based on No. of CU * 64 * 2 * Frequency in GHz. No. of CU times 64 provides us with the no. of Stream Processors (SP) and so if you have that you can simply skip to multiplying it by 2 and the product by Frequency.

The proof lies in the pudding and when it comes to marketing. If MS does have the largest GPU TF figure, they will tout it (and they should) alongside said pudding (demos). Sony will do their bit to highlight their bespoke HW strengths and show off one of their prepared demos.

Once the consoles are out in the wild, how it plays out with third party developers is of personal interest. Objectively speaking, unless XseX features some unseen and significant bottleneck, it should handily outperform PS5 versions, on paper. Because of the aforementioned features like VRS, CB as well dynamic resolution scaling solution, that advantage in motion may not be as pronounced. At least, that's my estimation.

Thanks for shedding some light on the technicals.

I agree that so far on paper, if we ASSume the oberon leak is the real deal and current/close to final, that the PS5 would be behind. As I said before, I would prefer both consoles being as close together as humanly possible so we don't repeat all of the annoyances of 3rd party games we saw this gen (and last especially). Knowing that my version of a game is very likely to have tearing, low/unstable framerate, non-locked resolution, etc. would be extremely disappointing. Owning multiple consoles or switching isn't an option for me either.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
If true, I think MS is over engineering, for any console 499 is niche and above that you may as well build a kick ass PC. I'd actually question if PS 5 is possible @399 due to the ssd, fairly high end cpu gpu and ram. With Switch at 299, I can't imagine getting way newer tech at just 100 over

I think you ought to accept a good portion of gamers don't and will never want to game on PC. It's a complete different environment, its not ever a consideration, they're not transient gamers. So for those that want a beast console, a premium experience, MS want to cater to them.

And as MS proved with X, the equivalent bang of buck PC would be much more expensive, not even getting into form factor and cooling.

It's a pretty bad (almost nonsensical) suggestion.
 
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Sqrt

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,880
It's possible, and some insiders are saying that the PS5 is above 10.5TFLOPs, though it is worth mentioning that Stadia is using Vega (GCN) architecture, ie Vega 56 GPUs, so the 9.2TFLOPs here would easily out perform Stadia.
Not to mention that the xbx already seems to outperform stadia.
 

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,215
Dark Space
I'm just trying to figure out how you would presumably gain 25% more power, while selling for a mere $100 more in USD, within the same launch window, without taking significant losses.

That makes this different than the Pro vs X1X situation, where the latter released a full year later.

So we're looking at the PS5 GPU having a little less power than a 5700 XT? Can that comparison be made or is it not that simple?
I don't see why you can't make that comparison. 5700 XT-ish is what a lot of us have been predicted for many months now.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
Not to mention that the xbx already seems to outperform stadia.
Also stadia is going to collapse inside its 3 year window anyways. Microsoft and Sony were scared because Google has money to challenge them, but they don't have a successful game plan, and their investment is not serious enough to dig the stadia out of the footnote it will be.
I'm just trying to figure out how you would presumably gain 25% more power, while selling for a mere $100 more in USD, within the same launch window, without taking significant losses.

That makes this different than the Pro vs X1X situation, where the latter released a full year later.


I don't see why you can't make that comparison. 5700 XT-ish is what a lot of us have been predicted for many months now.
Microsoft can afford the loss, it's what they did back in the 360 Era, launch a year ahead of the competition with better hardware, and even stole the cell's main component via IBM.

Frankly the size of the XBSX is clear enough an indication of the performance possible, unless ps5 is going to be as big, they can run higher clocks and achieve more performance, even if the GPUs were the exact same.
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
Thanks for shedding some light on the technicals.

I agree that so far on paper, if we ASSume the oberon leak is the real deal and current/close to final, that the PS5 would be behind. As I said before, I would prefer both consoles being as close together as humanly possible so we don't repeat all of the annoyances of 3rd party games we saw this gen (and last especially). Knowing that my version of a game is very likely to have tearing, low/unstable framerate, non-locked resolution, etc. would be extremely disappointing. Owning multiple consoles or switching isn't an option for me either.

Agreed on all points.
 

gothmog

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,434
NY
There's a significant amount of people who have no desire to build a PC or deal with PC gaming. Buying a box, plugging it in and having everything handled for you is way more convenient. I PC game a lot, but I really enjoy the convenience of consoles. Someone who just wants to play the most recent Call of Duty or Madden each year and has money to spend isn't going to start researching parts to build a PC. They're going to buy a console.
Gaming laptops and desktops exist exactly for this purpose.
 

Cup O' Tea?

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,603
It would be kind of hilarious if Sony entered the market with a weaker GPU. It's almost a rule of the industry at this point that when you have a successful console, you're nearly guaranteed to become arrogant and fuck up your next console in a never ending boom/bust cycle.
 

Deleted member 13645

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,052
Gaming laptops and desktops exist exactly for this purpose.

Sure, you can buy prebuilt, but gaming on PC still has hurdles you have to jump through. It's better than it was, but it's still not always a convenient or easy process. My brother loved Red Dead Redemption 2, but if he'd had to put up with constantly tweaking settings to get it to run well on PC he would have given up playing it very quickly. That was a particularly bad launch, but there's still a lot more going on with a PC you have to manage. Juggling launchers, handling all the various updates, troubleshooting issues that arise, the less-than-ideal HDR support, the UI being worse for running on a TV than a console on top of you most likely needing a keyboard and mouse hooked up to it still.

I'm not the person you have to convince, I have a gaming PC and enjoy it, but there's a lot of people who don't want to deal with any of it and just want to put in the disc and go. There's a reason the console market is a thing, not everyone wants a gaming PC.
 

Shpeshal Nick

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,856
Melbourne, Australia
I'm just trying to figure out how you would presumably gain 25% more power, while selling for a mere $100 more in USD, within the same launch window, without taking significant losses.

That makes this different than the Pro vs X1X situation, where the latter released a full year later.


I don't see why you can't make that comparison. 5700 XT-ish is what a lot of us have been predicted for many months now.

Because maybe they plan on taking losses?

who said they wouldn't at $499?