Digital Foundry: PlayStation 5/ Xbox Series X New GPU Spec Leak Analysis: 9.2TF vs 12TF?

NimbusCub · Dec 30, 2019

It's pretty disappointing to see some folks in this thread questioning DF's credibility after a generation of excellent work.

I've appreciated that this conversation has helped me keep aware of confirmation bias though.

Swift_Gamer said:
This extremely amusing. I mean, Lockhart won't hold anything back because scaling and games will still look amazing but suddenly ps5 9 or so TF will be weak. Warriors are something to behold.

I can't speak for other commenters, but most of the flak directed at Lockhart was that it'd hold back the ability to design "next-gen" games. My understanding is that many of the elements of game design that people would like to see improved (render times, AI, scale of simulations, etc.) are CPU and memory-bound.

While Lockhart would have a lower graphical-fidelity in addition to lower resolution than the PS5 and Series X, if the CPU and memory solutions are the same or near-identical, it shouldn't hold the industry back from implementing a number of changes/improvements to game design.

Yerffej · Dec 30, 2019

CasualsareFilth said:
This might be the case but I'm willing to bet Sony first party games will still outshine MS from a graphical point of view anyhow.

lol wow

Fastidioso · Dec 30, 2019

Rabalder. said:
Lmao DF is biased brehs

Leadbetter not DF per se. Such tests are not clear for what purpose are done. The number of CU is very suspicious. It matches to the backward method used by the Pro which disable the CU number to run PS4 base game. If such test was made primarily to work with the backward mode, the true CU number of the ps5 could be hidden. Uses such data to calculate the whole ps5 specs is gossip matter.

Dr. Doom · Dec 30, 2019

Evodelu said:
Outdated info. We have reason to believe that PS5 could be ~13TF.

Based on what?

ryan299 · Dec 30, 2019

Two things are going to matter more then power next gen.

Friends/family. You're going to buy the system where your friends and family are.

Secondly ecosystem/backwards compat. One of the reasons i think stadia struggled with and will continue to struggle with is ecosystem. People are already invested in either ps or Xbox. Going to take a hell of a lot to move to a new system when you've already invested a lot of money into one especially as digital adoption continues to grow.

BubblegumNemesis · Dec 30, 2019

Yerffej said:
lol wow

Yeah :)

lunanto · Dec 30, 2019

I know it may be pointless, but are out there some graphic cards for comparison´s sake?

Just want to see some gameplays lmao

BubblegumNemesis · Dec 30, 2019

Dr. Doom said:
Based on what?

I think he was being sarcastic.

SpokkX · Dec 30, 2019

Fastidioso said:
Jesus Christ the last DF videos. They haven't any leak about the full ps5 specs and all seems defined hearing Leadbetter. Now I understood why sony stop to share informations with him. That's not professional.

wtf?

he really went out of his way and said these were rumors and deduced from there

clearly fanboys cant handle even handle rumors about their favorite company - if the rumors are not positive that is

i do understand why Richard never posts here now

Evodelu · Dec 30, 2019

Dr. Doom said:
Based on what?

Kleegamefan, Reiner

Fredrik · Dec 30, 2019

Parmenide said:
MS can take it if they decide to seriously invest in the gaming department. Sony not, not in every possible scenario.

How would they explain for the investors that they'll lose money on each sold console?

They really just need to deliver on the premium quality, the games, the services and not mess up the PR. I wouldn't back away from a more expensive box of it seemed more premium. I bought PS3 day one for $599 without hesitation.

Deleted member 5028 · Dec 30, 2019

PlanetSmasher said:
This seems like really bad news for Sony, but if memory serves the leak this is talking about came from someone with a vested interest in Xbox, right? Wasn't this the Tom Warren thing? Should anyone really be trusting Tom Warren for insider news about Playstation hardware?

Tom Warren has no vested interest in Microsoft. He owns no stock there and the company is literally his best as a reporter.

NekoNeko · Dec 30, 2019

Sony done fucked up.
(I doubt it's going to matter all that much)

Khrol · Dec 30, 2019

Anono said:
I know it may be pointless, but are out there some graphic cards for comparison´s sake?

Just want to see some gameplays lmao

There are so many other factors when it comes to consoles. People are just hyper focused on tflops because it's all we really have at this point. Once we see games in action sanity will prevail.

Falus · Dec 30, 2019

I want the most powerful system ofc. But with checkerboard and new system design I don't think it will matter much. Still look like quite a gap but if they can do a 399 vs 499 system this will matter more

Splader · Dec 30, 2019

Evodelu said:
Kleegamefan, Reiner

They gave numbers?

Fastidioso · Dec 30, 2019

SpokkX said:
wtf?

he really went out of his way and said these were rumors and deduced from there

clearly fanboys cant handle even handle rumors about their favorite company - if the rumors are not positive that is

i do understand why Richard never posts here now

I seen the whole video. The whole chats it's all based to the data leaked in this forum. So please stop with such generic accuse when the whole conjuncture is around such tests which are not clear what was their true purpose.

PopcornMegaphone · Dec 30, 2019

Fastidioso said:
Leadbetter not DF per se. Such tests are not clear for what purpose are done. The number of CU is very suspicious. It matches to the backward method used by the Pro which disable the CU number to run PS4 base game. If such test was made primarily to work with the backward mode, the true CU number of the ps5 could be hidden.

Did you watch the video? He bends over backwards to say they might not have all the information and he's speculating. I know the bc thing is a reasonable theory on era right now but maybe he (or his source) feels differently.

Jeffram · Dec 30, 2019

Jeffram said:
The files are gone. What Digital Foundry sourced was what was in the files. Like they didn't just read a summary people are talking about, they got their hands on the files after the fact. They DIDN'T say that other sources say the PS5 has 36CUs.

There are 3 reasons to question the implications of the leaked documents:

1. They are full of mistakes and inaccuracies

There are files in wrong folders, there are sub folders and wrong folders. Again, when people say these are legitimate, they mean that this is what is legitimately in the files, not that the files are correct or accurate all the time.

The biggest issue is that they claim Spakrman (Lockhart) is 56CUs. Every reason you have to believe Oberon is PS5, you have to believe that Sparkman is Lockhart. Sparkman BC mode indicates it can replicate a One S.

However confident you are that PS5 is 36 CUs, must must be equally confident that Lockhart is 56CUs. Or the other way around, how ever skeptical you are that these leaks confirm Lockhart is 56CUs, you must be equally skpeitcal these leaks confirm PS5 is 36CUs.

2. The leaks if taken at face value, fly in the face of every credible insider we have, including develeper sources and industry sources, that say the Series X and PS5 are very close in power.

We've had Jason Schreier News Editor of Kotaku, Matt Reiner Executive Editor at Game Informer, Our own Mods, and Vetted industry insider and veteran Klee, and other insiders all say the consoles are close in power.

They specifically claim PS5 and Scarlett were close in power according to those sources. And All of that is in the same time window these leaks are from, which according to DF is the point where it's too late to make changes. None of them have come out and said the the tables have turned.

So, Actual insiders who actually know about the target specs of the PS5 and Xbox Series X (rather than drawing conclusions from indirect and uncontextualized data points) with a network of sources (instead of an interns notepad) are saying something to the contrary of what the leak indicates at face value.

3. The documents, if taken at face value, don't pass the sniff test, and an alternative makes more sense

The test were done without VRR and RT, when we know that at the very least PS5 has RT. This means that the tests we have access to are not the full PS5 in at least one way.

36CUs at 2GHz, is not a reasonable way to hit 9.2TFs, if that's the target. Every bit of historical and contextual data we have for consoles points to a wide and slow approach to console APUs. Efficiencies, Thermals, Cooling Costs, and reliability have all proven to be reasons that trump a lower sized and faster APU. Why would Sony feel any different? What technology would change the equation? I'm not aware of any, so I don't expect that approach to change.

36CUs would also make this the smallest APU Sony has made in a decade. In a world where Sony is dominating in terms of sales and profitability, where they've come out and aid that PS5 is going to be Niche product aimed at the hardcore who what the best and latest, where that is cooperated by their rumoured bleeding edge SSD tech, a small APU doesn't make sense.

Digital Foundry Stated in the article that many BC test are being done. If that's true, this could be a BC test right? Well, what would that look like. Presumably, they would want to test a Native PS4 mode, a PS4 Pro mode, and like the PS4 Pro had.... A PS4 Pro Boost mode. What would the Boost mode test look like?

A PS4 Pro Boost mode compatibility test would look like this: Exactly the same CUs as the PS4 Pro, An unlocked "full" clock, no RT or VRS hardware activated. What we have in the leak? 36CUs (exactly the same as the PS4 Pro), 2Ghz, the rumoured full clock of the PS5, No RT and no VRS indicated.

The leaks makes little sense as the Full PS5 hardware, indicating it's not that, and a lot of sense that it's a boost mode PS4 Pro compatibility test.

Dictator Since I know you're poking around these threads, care to comment on the information that was independently sourced? I'm interpreting the best I can from what was said.

rusty chrome · Dec 30, 2019

Rion said:
DF create videos to make money. The guys have to be paid for their analysis. The more videos, the more revenue.

It's a shame they've become a bit spammy in the past year (Directs and Let's Plays) but I get the hussle especially after the ad pocolypse.

Yeah DF seems to be headed down a dark path with this nonsense. How are they any better than all the other clickbait sites when they're peddling the same exact shit? They could have just waited for Sony to reveal the PS5 specs which is very soon and go from there. This smells of desperation.

CasualsareFilth · Dec 30, 2019

Yerffej said:
lol wow

Genuine opinion. What has been released on the X which has been technically more impressive than the likes of God of War/Spider-Man? Even HZD. Maybe things will change in the future but the quality of tech that Sony games tend to use has been superior to Xbox for a while. Facts.

Firefly · Dec 30, 2019

I don't know about you guys but Sony just shot themselves in the foot.

Rabalder. · Dec 30, 2019

CasualsareFilth said:
This might be the case but I'm willing to bet Sony first party games will still outshine MS from a graphical point of view anyhow.

They absolutely will.

Splader · Dec 30, 2019

Rabalder. said:
They absolutely will.

I don't think so.
Both are going to look amazing and top tier, but if the Series X really is significantly more powerful (and expensive) then future MS exclusives will look goddamn amazing.

Not to mention they're all on PC as well.

severianb · Dec 30, 2019

Pasha said:
...... so what the problem?

You know what the problem is. Someone's favorite piece of plastic doesn't look as good as someone elses' favorite piece of plastic.

I very much hope the rumor is true, because I'm a former PC gamer who has moved to console and want a ridiculously high-end console to be a thing. But for that to happen, we need less pricey consoles to sell a lot of volume. Lockheart<--PS5<--Anaconda ($299--$399--$499) sounds great.

bcatwilly · Dec 30, 2019

The dumping on Digital Foundry by some is disgraceful honestly. The video very clearly provides the proper context surrounding this and states that nothing is 100% confirmed which is true of course, but it is also clearly legitimate leaked AMD information that is worthy to be discussed by sites such as that and of course on forums such as this. Burying heads in the sand for the data in that leak is simply going full fanboy mode too from the other side.

Inuhanyou · Dec 30, 2019

I really like this breakdown. Echoes my own thoughts and speculations

ShapeGSX · Dec 30, 2019

Edit didn't mean to post the first part.

Evodelu said:
And? The chip under discussion is Navi 10 (if you read the github info) which lacks RT. Chip names change when if the memory bus is changed (see Navi 12).

This is likely a 5700 clocked out the ass for early testing purposes.

With a CPU on die?

nolifebr · Dec 30, 2019

Firefly said:
I don't know about you guys but Sony just shot themselves in the foot.

To be honest, I kinda want to see Sony in that early PS3 situation again, just to see how they would react.

Rex1157 · Dec 30, 2019

If this 9TF turns out to be false, we need a massive wall of shame here.

RingRang · Dec 30, 2019

I genuinely want this information to be true.

1) The meltdowns from Sony stans would be amazing to watch.

2) Then the post launch reversal from Xbox stans when the sales data shows the Playstation brand still dominates sales regardless of specs.

Deleted member 5028 · Dec 30, 2019

CasualsareFilth said:
Genuine opinion. What has been released on the X which has been technically more impressive than the likes of God of War/Spider-Man? Even HZD. Maybe things will change in the future but the quality of tech that Sony games tend to use has been superior to Xbox for a while. Facts.

There hasn't been much from XGS this past few years on principle that the console is generally not going to be a success. You will see more and more next gen but to imply that graphical prowess is only a Sony skill and that art direction doesn't come into play, well I dismiss your point of view entirely.

I couldn't care less about realism when everyone is chasing it, but give me an amazingly beautiful Nintendo game with gorgeous art direction and I'll be happy.

Papacheeks · Dec 30, 2019

Dachhase said:
Sony done fucked up.
(I doubt it's going to matter all that much)

Or maybe it was all part of the plan? Playstation has always been price conscious minus the PS3 debacle.

B.C. · Dec 30, 2019

Broken Hope said:
XBox still won't have first party games that appeal to me so it being more powerful won't make a difference, just like the One X being more powerful didn't.

Honestly, you dont really know this just yet. This is the first time Xbox has ever gone this big or "all in" in the console space. They have a huge stable of devs now and buying more. You correlate more dev houses with the most powerful system on the market, the best rental service on the market with GP, most comprehensible game streaming service with Xcloud and, well...shit just gets super interesting!

There's no telling what they have coming down the pipe line at this point. But it is incredibly exciting! Sony will certainly have some bangers on the PS5. That was never in question. But they wont be the only ones comes next gen.

rebelcrusader · Dec 30, 2019

Dr. Doom said:
Based on what?

Based on teh console wars

lunanto · Dec 30, 2019

I am not worried for Sony at all.

They have great studios and people very very talented.

Is Microsoft that has to prove they can create new IPs apart from the stagnant Halos, Gears and Forzas.

Deleted member 10737 · Dec 30, 2019

Rex1157 said:
If this 9TF turns out to be false, we need a massive wall of shame here.

the wall would be equally as massive if it ends up being true.

plagiarize · Dec 30, 2019

If this dissolves into a debate over what you think 'close' means, I'm not sure it's worth having at this time. If you're discrediting this because other leakers used a word that is in no way shape or form quantitative, then I'm just going to shrug.

This would be closer than PS4 to Xbox One. This would be closer than PS4 Pro to Xbox One X.

Niks · Dec 30, 2019

RingRang said:
I genuinely want this information to be true.

1) The meltdowns from Sony stans would be amazing to watch.

2) Then the post launch reversal from Xbox stans when the sales data shows the Playstation brand still dominates sales regardless of specs.

Haha this. It's going to be an amazing start of the new gen. Console warz are ALWAYS amusing.

Fastidioso · Dec 30, 2019

PopcornMegaphone said:
Did you watch the video? He bends over backwards to say they might not have all the information and he's speculating. I know the bc thing is a reasonable theory on era right now but maybe he (or his source) feels differently.

He speculating and at the same time said repeatedly specs couldn't be far off and Sony can't do anything to match the X series. Which make me think to the seriety of such rushed video. I mean we no need this kind of stuff, YouTube is already full of such gossip matter.

Montresor · Dec 30, 2019

Xbox Series X will eat monsters for breakfast.

Bigfellahull · Dec 30, 2019

bcatwilly said:
The dumping on Digital Foundry by some is disgraceful honestly.

Yep the guys do excellent work. The sad thing is the same people criticising DF are the same people who were praising them during the resolution years when every PS game ran at a higher resolution than Xbox. Funny how perspectives change when rumors favour the other platform of their choice.

Inuhanyou · Dec 30, 2019

nolifebr said:
To be honest, I kinda want to see Sony in that early PS3 situation again, just to see how they would react.

They would need an expensive system that is not easy to dev for and first party offerings years out and such.

Ppl are really going insane when this is just continuation of current gen strategy.

Personally im with richard. Its good to see differing strategies.

blastprocessor · Dec 30, 2019

Sony, publicly apologize and cancel your plans for PS5 9.2tf, or you can kiss your business goodbye.

Deleted member 10737 · Dec 30, 2019

bcatwilly said:
The dumping on Digital Foundry by some is disgraceful honestly. The video very clearly provides the proper context surrounding this and states that nothing is 100% confirmed which is true of course, but it is also clearly legitimate leaked AMD information that is worthy to be discussed by sites such as that and of course on forums such as this. Burying heads in the sand for the data in that leak is simply going full fanboy mode too from the other side.

yep. i'm not surprised, but you would think people would have more respect and appreciation for DF considering what they've done for all kinds of games and systems over the past years, and how much information they've provided so people can make better choices. now one video goes against what some people want to believe (despite them making it clear that nothing in the video is 100%) and suddenly they're some lowbrow clickbait channel.

zen1990x · Dec 30, 2019

RingRang said:
Even if the PS5 is 9 tflops and the Series X is 12, you're still not going to see the kind of differences you saw at the beginning of the XB1 and PS4 gen. People with fantasies of that kind of stuff should probably reign in your thinking on that front.

lmao, it will be a bigger difference. if you didnt know, the power difference between ps4 and xbox one was about 0.4 tflops. while the ps4 had better RAM, it didnt make much difference. With an extra 3TF the gap will be even bigger than the PS4 PRO and Xbox one X. instead of just simple Resoloution boosts, games on the series X could have better graphical options.

Deleted member 35653 · Dec 30, 2019

What amazes me is the confidence in some posts here: 'Xbox will lose regardless' 'They won't have the exclusives that matters' 'Their exclusives won't interest me'. How do you even know?

SimpleCRIPPLE · Dec 30, 2019

Truant said:
While the best situation would be that both consoles are virtually identical in terms of power, it would be fun to see what happens if Microsoft takes the lead for next gen. I buy every console + a PC, so I have no stake in anything. I just like to sit back and watch y'all lose your minds.

This is where I'm at. These speculation threads are much more entertaining when you don't have a horse in the race.

DukeBlueBall · Dec 30, 2019

plagiarize said:
If this dissolves into a debate over what you think 'close' means, I'm not sure it's worth having at this time. If you're discrediting this because other leakers used a word that is in no way shape or form quantitative, then I'm just going to shrug.

This would be closer than PS4 to Xbox One. This would be closer than PS4 Pro to Xbox One X.

This is the closest that the two companies have ever been.

Even PS3 and 360 had a bigger delta, 172 vs 240.

2Blackcats · Dec 30, 2019

B.C. said:
Honestly, you dont really know this just yet. This is the first time Xbox has ever gone this big or "all in" in the console space. They have a huge stable of devs now and buying more. You correlate more dev houses with the most powerful system on the market, the best rental service on the market with GP, most comprehensible game streaming service with Xcloud and, well...shit just gets super interesting!

There's no telling what they have coming down the pipe line at this point. But it is incredibly exciting! Sony will certainly have some bangers on the PS5. That was never in question. But they wont be the only ones comes next gen.

Yeah. As an Xbox fan it's been a rough decade or so. But it really looks like they're getting all their ducks in a row. I'm still PS5 day 1 but who knows how things will change by November.

Digital Foundry: PlayStation 5/ Xbox Series X New GPU Spec Leak Analysis: 9.2TF vs 12TF?

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