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Sirhc

Hasn't made a thread yet. Shame me.
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,070
It's people like you guys turning this into some "console war" nonsense.

This is a technical thread, as all comparison threads should be. It's about facts and data. A more meaningful take would be why is this happening in the Xbox vs the whole who uses that camera angle thing.

________________________
On another note...

Kudos to them for actually using the SSDs n the nextgen consoles. Dropping load times from over 20ses to under 3 seconds. And they also released on all platforms. Activision and Ubisoft need to take notes.

Posting 1 screenshot with out of context frame rates and no discussion is no some in depth technical discourse, it's low effort console war shit, lets not pretend otherwise.

I would love to see some technical discussion on what is causing the drops, if it might be optimization, or something where the faster speeds on PS5 help bring in those textures and avoid drops, but that sort of post won't generate this discussion and is not ment to.

Overall the next gen versions seem great, would love to see more in depth on the S version to see what is up with with the DoF being on and off like that.
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
Can we please stop with the nonsense about GDK, tools, late development kits, failure rates, coil whine, etc. The facts speak for themselves.


You need a microscope to see a difference. Play whatever platform you own.
Only if it was that simple. I am of the same mind as you. And nit-picking and saying I am getting this version or that cause it is better there is at this point borderline childish. But The simple truth of the matter is, no matter well veiled it is... there are a lot of people that WANT one version to be clearly better so they can talk up having the more powerful console and there are others that want the other to be better so they can stick it to the former group lol.

They can't talk about rez, or set quality or features anymore... so now they talk about spotty 2-4fps drops. Like thats something, most people would even actually notice.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,323
Posting 1 screenshot with out of context frame rates and no discussion is no some in depth technical discourse, it's low effort console war shit, lets not pretend otherwise.

I would love to see some technical discussion on what is causing the drops, if it might be optimization, or something where the faster speeds on PS5 help bring in those textures and avoid drops, but that sort of post won't generate this discussion and is not ment to.

Overall the next gen versions seem great, would love to see more in depth on the S version to see what is up with with the DoF being on and off like that.

We don't know the intent of the person who posted that. We can infer all we like, but only he actually knows.

But as long as what he posted was actually factual, what is there to get upset about? People can asterisk what he said and add context, but getting all bent out of shape just spurs arguments.
 

McFly

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,742
We don't know the intent of the person who posted that. We can infer all we like, but only he actually knows.

But as long as what he posted was actually factual, what is there to get upset about? People can asterisk what he said and add context, but getting all bent out of shape just spurs arguments.
What I find rather funny is that, that screenshot did not derail the thread. It is people whining about the screenshot is what is actually derailing the thread. Self-fulfilling prophecy.
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
Posting 1 screenshot with out of context frame rates and no discussion is no some in depth technical discourse, it's low effort console war shit, lets not pretend otherwise.

I would love to see some technical discussion on what is causing the drops, if it might be optimization, or something where the faster speeds on PS5 help bring in those textures and avoid drops, but that sort of post won't generate this discussion and is not ment to.

Overall the next gen versions seem great, would love to see more in depth on the S version to see what is up with with the DoF being on and off like that.
Right off the top f more head, I would say for the series S, its depth of field thing is a bug. Being that it's on and off in different places. The only real takeaway outside its buggy nature is that its obviously of lower quality.

A for the XSXand PS5 thing, I can't help feel it has to do with something, in particular, that PS5 is faster at. Shader proficiency is obviously not a bottleneck here so it has to be something at some point earlier in the render pipeline. It's the only reason I can see to explain these "odd" wins the PS5 enjoys. I believe that "tools" (if they were the issue) would be showing a more generalized and constant performance disadvantage, vs the odd performance dips in specific scenarios or modes.
 

Simuly

Alt-Account
Banned
Jul 8, 2019
1,281
Posting 1 screenshot with out of context frame rates and no discussion is no some in depth technical discourse, it's low effort console war shit, lets not pretend otherwise.

I would love to see some technical discussion on what is causing the drops, if it might be optimization, or something where the faster speeds on PS5 help bring in those textures and avoid drops, but that sort of post won't generate this discussion and is not ment to.

Overall the next gen versions seem great, would love to see more in depth on the S version to see what is up with with the DoF being on and off like that.

I think the differences are so small that that out of context screenshot is actually the context - that's one of two areas where XsX is behind PS5.
 

Gusy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,087
Posting 1 screenshot with out of context frame rates and no discussion is no some in depth technical discourse, it's low effort console war shit, lets not pretend otherwise.

I would love to see some technical discussion on what is causing the drops, if it might be optimization, or something where the faster speeds on PS5 help bring in those textures and avoid drops, but that sort of post won't generate this discussion and is not ment to.

Overall the next gen versions seem great, would love to see more in depth on the S version to see what is up with with the DoF being on and off like that.

Hard disagree. That simple screen capture tells a simple and clear story of what's actually happening and absolutely caught my attention and sparked my interest to actually know more. If that picture is later used by anybody to troll or to derail the discussion then our mods will do their job. Stop policing posts that are nothing but facts that also happen to be pertinent for the discussions these thread was created for.
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
Curiously this game actually loads a tiny bit faster on Series X.
That is actually interesting I can't think of any reason why that should ever happen. Unless it's a CPU thing? But that would be some serious CPU bottleneck to allow the box makeup for over 2x the bandwidth advantage the PS5 has over it.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,875
What I find rather funny is that, that screenshot did not derail the thread. It is people whining about the screenshot is what is actually derailing the thread. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

I have a small disagreement on that. While posting a screenshot from the video isn't necessarily an issue, I would expect posters doing so to actually comment on it. A screenshot posted with no comment might lead people into not watching the video and drawing conclusions based on that. If a poster wants to highlight something in a video I would expect some sort of comment to explain why it is being highlighted. That's how we can have a discussion.
 

Sirhc

Hasn't made a thread yet. Shame me.
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,070
That is actually interesting I can't think of any reason why that should ever happen. Unless it's a CPU thing? But that would be some serious CPU bottleneck to allow the box makeup for over 2x the bandwidth advantage the PS5 has over it.

This is strange and its odd to see games performing almost opposite to how everyone expected with PS5 running better but SX loading faster. I wonder if there is a little more work to optimize for the bandwidth on PS5 that might not have gotten attention with the pandemic.

Would love to see some side by side testing on load times but with both being so insanely low it isn't going to be a tangible difference either way with how things look, but would love to see a technical breakdown on what makes them so close.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
Panoramic camera:
PS5: Locked 60fps
XSX: fluctuating between 56fps-60fps
8N3K5Cw.png
- Selected obscure camera mode
- Left out the rate of which this occurs
- Used worse example as overall statement

Mods, can we do something about all topics with these point scoring takes? To deter such poor quality assessments.
 

McFly

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,742
I have a small disagreement on that. While posting a screenshot from the video isn't necessarily an issue, I would expect posters doing so to actually comment on it. A screenshot posted with no comment might lead people into not watching the video and drawing conclusions based on that. If a poster wants to highlight something in a video I would expect some sort of comment to explain why it is being highlighted. That's how we can have a discussion.
There is actually a comment prefacing the screenshot that makes it clear it occurs in the parametric camera view. Now you could argue that it may not be enough to explain why that is occurring but neither does the video. It is just pointed out in the video with the disclaimer that it could be GPU related.
- Left out context of camera mode usage = Parametric Camera
- Left out the rate of which this occurs = Fluctuates between 56 to 60
- Used worse example as overall statement = That is the actual performance in that particular view

Mods, can we do something about all topics with these point scoring takes? To deter such poor quality assessments.
It is right there in the post you quoted.
 

dmix90

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,885
- Left out camera mode being used,
- Left out the rate of which this occurs
- Used worse example as overall statement

Mods, can we do something about all topics with these point scoring takes? To deter such poor quality assessments.
???
- That post mentions camera mode
- If it occured even once on one platform and not on the other it's worth pointing out

What I find rather funny is that, that screenshot did not derail the thread. It is people whining about the screenshot is what is actually derailing the thread. Self-fulfilling prophecy.
That's just another fact lol

Anyways... i think we should start discussing XSX memory bandwidth issues( warning! speculation !warning ) . I don't know why but probably something to do with their split memory setup, alpha effects kill( warning! exaggeration !warning ) the console... at least in comparison to PS5.

I played through the entirety of Sekiro on XSX and there are some heavy ass framerate drops( which even VRR is not capable to remedy ) when there is a lot of alpha effects on screen. Monster Hunter World is running at better settings on PS5 at almost locked 60 frames while XSX routinely drops when there is a lot of alpha effects on screen. From experience alpha effects love memory bandwidth.... 2+2 = 4
 

Poldino

Member
Oct 27, 2020
3,342
So another case of PS5 (slightly, in this case) outperforming XSX. The trend is pretty clear now, but I'm curious to see what's going to be next year
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
This is strange and its odd to see games performing almost opposite to how everyone expected with PS5 running better but SX loading faster. I wonder if there is a little more work to optimize for the bandwidth on PS5 that might not have gotten attention with the pandemic.

Would love to see some side by side testing on load times but with both being so insanely low it isn't going to be a tangible difference either way with how things look, but would love to see a technical breakdown on what makes them so close.
That actually makes sense.

Long ago some of us hypothesized on how certain aspects of these next-gen consoles wouldn't be taken advantage of by third parties if doing so would require more work or "different" work. Maybe these loading times parity or even in some cases the Xbox loading faster is a direct result of that.

After giving it more thought, the only conclusion I could arrive at is this. Devs would build around the SSD of the Xbox, knowing fully well that if they get their game working there as far as loading or data management goes then it by default "just works' On the PS5. The downside of this is that there may be things they aren't taking advantage of on the PS5 as a result. Because if just looking at the raw hardware, the PS5 should be loading at least 50% faster than the Xbox. Every single time. All else being equal. As it stands, it's almost as if loading ad data management on the PS5 is being handled as if it were an Xbox.

Maybe the same can be said to compute parallelization on the PS5 vs the Series X. With regards to shader tasks, build for the PS5then port up to the XSX.
 

Dultimate

Member
Oct 27, 2017
652
I may be missing something but he showed..and said the game dropped 1 frame on regular gameplay sometimes on the X. He then said the PS5 doesn't have that but the graph in the video showed it at 54, 39, then 32 frames @13:22 in the video for the PS5 in what looks to be regular gameplay.

What am I missing?

Can someone post a screengrab for me? I can't get any links uploaded
 
Last edited:

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,875
There is actually a comment prefacing the screenshot that makes it clear it occurs in the parametric camera view. Now you could argue that it may not be enough to explain why that is occurring but neither does the video. It is just pointed out in the video with the disclaimer that it could be GPU related.

That is not a comment expressing the opinion of the person posting the screenshot, it is just a description of the origin of the screenshot. What I think would facilitate and encourage discussion is an actual opinion. For example, something like "in this angle there is a lot of this or other effect on screen which might indicate x or y as the cause of the drop". That would be something we can discuss.
 

nelsonroyale

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
12,135
I mean the differences are essentially minimal, but the PS5 is consistently coming out on top. It is amusing given MS was touting the most powerful console narrative for quite some time. What it is, it is not in evidence yet.
 

Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,876
- Selected obscure camera mode
- Left out the rate of which this occurs
- Used worse example as overall statement

Mods, can we do something about all topics with these point scoring takes? To deter such poor quality assessments.
Look at the graphs. The frame times are consistently dipping and the framerate is consistently 56~.
 

metalgear89

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,018
What i find so bizarre is if ms knew about their tools being so behind why go in the powerful console marketing so hard? Surely they should have known something like that would have backfired like it is now. PS5 keeping parity or minimal advantages is not a good look for them.
 

Toriko

Banned
Dec 29, 2017
7,711
Most powerful console was always going to mean jackshit in real world scenarios except for fanboys. These consoles are largely identical and is going to be the case barring some random outlier favouring PS5 or Series X.

The best place to play third party games on consoles is no longer based on power but on ecosystem ( controller, friends, OS features etc.. ) This might hurt some people salivating over on paper power differences but it is the truth. Might as well get used to these kind of results.
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,477
What i find so bizarre is if ms knew about their tools being so behind why go in the powerful console marketing so hard? Surely they should have known something like that would have back fired real hard like it is now. PS5 keeping parity or minimal advantages is not a good look for them.

On paper it is the most powerful and again must stress 99% of people deciding which console to purchase are not making that decision based on which version of a game has miniscule frame drops.

Same as the vast majority do not care if a game loads 2 secs faster.
 

McFly

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,742
That is actually interesting I can't think of any reason why that should ever happen. Unless it's a CPU thing? But that would be some serious CPU bottleneck to allow the box makeup for over 2x the bandwidth advantage the PS5 has over it.
I think it could be partially because games are still being designed for last gen and certain game engines don't scale loading beyond a certain point. The games are still similarly doing the same background processing and house keeping during loading hence you see similar load times 2 to 3 seconds difference give or take. Looking at games specifically designed around next gen (current gen) we see a massive shift in load times.
 

McFly

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,742
That is not a comment expressing the opinion of the person posting the screenshot, it is just a description of the origin of the screenshot. What I think would facilitate and encourage discussion is an actual opinion. For example, something like "in this angle there is a lot of this or other effect on screen which might indicate x or y as the cause of the drop". That would be something we can discuss.
By your own admission the post is just a relay of the information, sans personal opinion, but specific to what is different between both platforms. Ok then surely there should be no need to attack the messenger as we see then since it is opinion free and simply just lays out the information. From there anybody can discuss the content rather than feel personally attacked.

My take as is evident from various DF thread is PS5 is simply showing where it's strength lies. High cache bandwidth, high fillrate, higher rasterization owing to the high clock speed. If it comes a point where more compute jobs need doing we would see the 15% compute lead XSX has come to bare. These mostly cross gen games are not ALU bound.
 

Bucéfalo

Banned
May 29, 2020
1,566
More of the same. Pretty similar versions, even though Ps5 seems to perform better , and DualSense support is such a plus.
 

Yung Coconut

Member
Oct 31, 2017
4,267
I've been playing on Series X and the game is smooth. I'm hella impressed with the quality for a launch title.
 

Launchpad

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,183
I honestly can't believe how bad the next gen versions make the last gen versions look. I had 2k20 and thought it looked great. But now 21 looks so flat in comparison it's crazy. Hope they do one for FIFA next ha.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,875
By your own admission the post is just a relay of the information, sans personal opinion, but specific to what is different between both platforms. Ok then surely there should be no need to attack the messenger as we see then since it is opinion free and simply just lays out the information.

I don't think it is enough to do so when you are using just a tiny piece of a video or article. For me it is no different to quoting another user here on Resetera. When you quote something you do so because you want to comment on it in some way. If you don't want to add a comment then you are doing a disservice to the original video or article which contains all the relevant information.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,323
I may be missing something but he showed..and said the game dropped 1 frame on regular gameplay sometimes on the X. He then said the PS5 doesn't have that but the graph in the video showed it at 54, 39, then 32 frames @13:22 in the video for the PS5 in what looks to be regular gameplay.

What am I missing?

Can someone post a screengrab for me? I can't get any links uploaded

Listen to what he says as that's happening. Both consoles drop to 30fps for the "interstitial" scenes between gameplay. He shows it happening on both consoles. He starts talking about it at 12:10.

The XSX drops folks here are talking about occur during gameplay as well.
 

ReggieBC

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
359
Pretty much a wash imo. I most likely wouldnt even notice the drops. But good to know the PS5 performance is solid.
 

Windrunner

Sly
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,619
NBA Jam CD music, Chad Warden reference and a beautiful looking game with parity between the two next gen consoles.

It doesn't get any better than this.
 

Liabe Brave

Professionally Enhanced
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,672
This is some low tier bait for people who don't watch the whole video.
You are incorrect. This is a visual of one platform experiencing a bottleneck where another does not. Regardless of how rare the context, in a technical discussion this isn't extraneous trivia but instead the most probative data available.

Seems like a bug with the backboard alpha effects on Xbox that's causing the frame drops. John mentions it occurs when they're on screen. Might be a game bug with the Xbox version but I've noticed frame drops tend to happen with other games during heavy alpha effects like water, explosions, smoke and dust on Xbox. Could be an issue with the graphics pipeline.
If I recall correctly, there was also a title where NXGamer saw greater alpha effects on the PS5 version. This possible trend is somewhat surprising since Series X has higher RAM bandwidth.

Omg it dropped a few frames on a camera angle nobody uses! What will we ever do?!

🙄
Stop trying to force this console war shit, for real.
Ironically, complaining that a fact is biased is not only incorrect, but itself more console-warrish than a bare post.

You haven't been on these forums long if you don't think this user knows exactly what they're doing when sharing single screenshot with no comment like that.
Actually, there was comment. The poster correctly stated what camera mode was being shown, adding exactly the context for the reader you claim is absent. Or do you believe that Digital Foundry, who displayed this exact image while stating it was from a specific camera mode, was also console warrioring?

They bother many people apparently, because useless posts like that always end up stirring shit and getting threads derailed and eventually closed because of what they spark.
The only reasonable stance is to react to behavior, not to supposed intent which is actually uncertain. Imagine this exchange:

PERSON A: Covid is significantly less lethal for young people.
PERSON B: Yeah, the so-called "epidemic" is fake news!
PERSON C: Worse than that, it's an orchestrated plot to take away our freedoms!

In this situation, it's obvious the latter speakers are the actual problem. Your position is that we should tell the first person to shut up before others even talk, because maybe they'll misuse the fact.

That by itself is a fact worth talking about.
Not so much. Sports games are tyoically undemanding, so multiple platforms reaching a natural ceiling doesn't necessarily tell us anything about their actual capabilities. For example, the NBA 2K games last gen were 2160p60 on both PS4 Pro and Xbox One X. That didn't mean Sony's machine wasn't significantly less powerful.

PS5 always supersamples if a game outputs a higher resolution I believe so there is no system level toggle like on PS4 pro.
Actually, more recent evidence shows that it doesn't do this for every PS4 game without automated SS, and maybe not for any of them.

But the NBA 2K games are automatic, so playing on a 1080p display you'll get supersampling.

Maybe true PS5 games are all forced to supersample? There seems to be no proper examination/confirmation if that is the case so far.
Every PS5 game I've looked at does, but I haven't been exhaustive.
 

Dultimate

Member
Oct 27, 2017
652
Listen to what he says as that's happening. Both consoles drop to 30fps for the "interstitial" scenes between gameplay. He shows it happening on both consoles. He starts talking about it at 12:10.

The XSX drops folks here are talking about occur during gameplay as well.

You should watch it again. The words he says and the clips he shows doesn't match. His words makes it seem as if there is no drop in frames on the PS5 but the graph and video is showing differently, and more so than the 1 frame (his words) on the X.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,323
You should watch it again. The words he says and the clips he shows doesn't match. His words makes it seem as if there is no drop in frames on the PS5 but the graph and video is showing differently, and more so than the 1 frame (his words) on the X.

The part you pointed at is literally one of the interstitial moments he then goes on to say is where the game (on both consoles) drops to 30fps.

You're building a conspiracy on nothing.
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
You should watch it again. The words he says and the clips he shows doesn't match. His words makes it seem as if there is no drop in frames on the PS5 but the graph and video is showing differently, and more so than the 1 frame (his words) on the X.
I don't comment often here but what you are seeing is the curve on the graph as it goes from 60 to 30 then back to 60. Look at the frame-time graph - you can see how it goes from 16ms to 33ms to 16ms. It's not slowing down during gameplay.
 

Dultimate

Member
Oct 27, 2017
652
I don't comment often here but what you are seeing is the curve on the graph as it goes from 60 to 30 then back to 60. Look at the frame-time graph - you can see how it goes from 16ms to 33ms to 16ms. It's not slowing down during gameplay.

I appreciate the response Dark1x. Is it the same for the numbers in the video? 54 to 39 to 32? It's transitional frames?