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Riflen

Member
Nov 13, 2017
107
Dictator not exactly minecraft related, but I wanted to know your thoughts on this. Nvidia put out their latest video in their RT Essentials series and they bring up depth of field and motion blur via ray tracing. it's one function I haven't seen talked about, and I wanted to know your thoughts on the potential quality of such an implementation

If you want to play with ray traced depth-of-field effects, download Quake II RTX. It was not present in the initial release, but Nvidia patched in lots of new features around January, including much improved metallic surface textures and the photo mode.
The photo mode is fantastic and employs the depth-of-field feature.

49404770411_f9872b6562_o.png
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,930
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
Like what? Sry I just have a hard time figuring how gameplay could change simply from raytracing or any lighting outside of moving mirrors and similar in puzzles but that have been done for ages.
Indirect lighting is real time. Colour can mix in real time.

All of these things in the past were completely static.

If you have trouble imagining how lighting can effect a game's gameplay, then I just think you lack imagination. Dynamism in lighting or lighting being different has a huge gameplay feedback. Splinter Cell during day time and fullbright lighting is a decidedly different game.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
Indirect lighting is real time. Colour can mix in real time.

All of these things in the past were completely static.

If you have trouble imagining how lighting can effect a game's gameplay, then I just think you lack imagination. Dynamism in lighting or lighting being different has a huge gameplay feedback. Splinter Cell during day time and fullbright lighting is a decidedly different game.
Splinter Cell is coming with raytracing, that's what I want to hear!
 

KainXVIII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,282
If you have trouble imagining how lighting can effect a game's gameplay, then I just think you lack imagination. Dynamism in lighting or lighting being different has a huge gameplay feedback. Splinter Cell during day time and fullbright lighting is a decidedly different game.
Maybe he meant how does raytracing can affect Minecraft gameplay? I'm not an expert, but its consist only of building/crafting, but not puzzles? Also dynamism of lighting has huge lag judging by your video.
PS - and i think that AAA Splinter Cell game with full path-tracing is not feasible even in near future..maybe in next-nextgen? šŸ˜
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
Sorry, didn't watch the vid yet(Going tomorrow after I looked at all worlds myself), but I don't see other threads about this.

What is DLSS upscaling from at 1080p and at 1440p? I'm guessing 540p and 720p? All I know is I can't tell the difference with and without upscaling other than a big FPS drop with it off, which is really really cool. Bugging me right now without knowing haha.
For the beta, the quality setting is fixed. 1080p's native is 720p while 1440p is 835p (quality and balanced respectively)

Like what? Sry I just have a hard time figuring how gameplay could change simply from raytracing or any lighting outside of moving mirrors and similar in puzzles but that have been done for ages.
RT light puzzles is something I can see Nintendo losing their shit on
If you want to play with ray traced depth-of-field effects, download Quake II RTX. It was not present in the initial release, but Nvidia patched in lots of new features around January, including much improved metallic surface textures and the photo mode.
The photo mode is fantastic and employs the depth-of-field feature.

49404770411_f9872b6562_o.png
Didn't know they added that. Will look more into it
 
Dec 8, 2018
1,911
Indirect lighting is real time. Colour can mix in real time.

All of these things in the past were completely static.

If you have trouble imagining how lighting can effect a game's gameplay, then I just think you lack imagination. Dynamism in lighting or lighting being different has a huge gameplay feedback. Splinter Cell during day time and fullbright lighting is a decidedly different game.


So like instead of moving mirrors we would switch the glass in windows to mix them to match the symbol on the floor the lighting is pointed at kind of puzzles?

And no I understand completely how such things as turning the brightness to eleven or like how I used to swap quake 2 skins to pure pink to give me an edge would alter the gameplay I just asked what ray tracing brought to the table that could not be done today since I played with day to night transitions since Castlevania 2 on the NES basically and especially this last gen.
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,930
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
Maybe he meant how does raytracing can affect Minecraft gameplay? I'm not an expert, but its consist only of building/crafting, but not puzzles? Also dynamism of lighting has huge lag judging by your video.
The reason why you see any lag in scenes only lit by indirect lighting is because the denoiser is currently not adaptive as mentioend in the video. The amount of lag for the actual lighting update with an adaptive denoiser (which is what they are currently working on for the final, non-beta release) would have a max lag of lighting update equivalent to the maximum depth of the surface caching - so a max of 8 frames.

Currently all indirect lighting is flatly accumulated and denoised, so it all has a fall of lag that the final game wont have.
 

cjn83

Banned
Jul 25, 2018
284
Any thoughts on how much more compute power would be required to bring full path tracing to modern games? So essentially a PS5/XBSX/Turing for Minecraft and Quake 2, which are roughly mid-90s equivalent games. Could something like TES4 Oblivion be possible on Ampere? Witcher 3 on PS6? What kind of timescales are we talking about?
 

BeI

Member
Dec 9, 2017
5,974
Are there any plans to compare this build with what we've seen of the XSX version to see how it might stack up against it?
 

BeI

Member
Dec 9, 2017
5,974
That's not a fair comparison, especially sing we have so little footage of the xbox version

It looks like there was a fair few scenes they showed in their video with XSX footage. They could potentially recreate some scenes on the PC version and see if it differed in resolution of effects or something.
 
Jan 21, 2019
2,902
Any thoughts on how much more compute power would be required to bring full path tracing to modern games? So essentially a PS5/XBSX/Turing for Minecraft and Quake 2, which are roughly mid-90s equivalent games. Could something like TES4 Oblivion be possible on Ampere? Witcher 3 on PS6? What kind of timescales are we talking about?
I'm sure the first step is going to be hybrid raytracing and tricks to improve performance until hardware can handle path tracing in complex scenes. As with the state of Minecraft. There are still a lot of things that can be improved. Imagine the jump from Battlefield to Control and from Control to some late gen game by a AAA studio.
 

Guy.brush

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,357
So a trusty old 1080Ti is basically sitting sad outside the window in the rain right?
Double K.O. punch between not having the RTX cores and not having DLSS 2.0

Anyone done testing with that card?
 

Tahnit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,965
need updated regular minecraft textures for this. the nvidia pack doesnt have everything. Need regular land/grass. the dirt is super high res and looks off when used with regular minecraft textures.
 

Dennis8K

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,161
Any idea how much of a % boost in ray tracing performance we should expect going from the 2080 to the new 3080?
 

Guy.brush

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,357
Showed this vid to my kids. and my 9 year old who is really big into Minecraft did NOT like how realistic it made it become. He immediately wanted to see a video of how the zombies and creepers look and did NOT like the new dangerous look of cave lava one bit LOL.
He vehemently was like "Minecraft is not supposed to look like - real!" I reassured him that his iPad version will still look normal and only Daddy's PC version might soon look like this.
 

Jamesac68

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,382
runs at 60-70fps with an RTX2070S, kind of lame that you cant actually create your own rtx worlds.

I thought that too, but everyone is clear by now that you can roll a brand-new world from scratch? Takes some poking, downloading some texture packs from Nvidia and putting them in the right directory, but everyone has it figured out now? I didn't learn about it until about 9PM last night so it seems like information that didn't get out there very well.

www.nvidia.com

Minecraft with RTX PBR Texturing Guide

Learn how to create new PBR textures for Minecraft with RTX that work with its immersive path-traced ray tracing, by following our step-by-step texture and resource pack guide.
 

KKRT

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,544
to the uninformed, what's that?
The correct term is camera obscura, but generally it just mean that you can project the light via small entry point from one room into another thats dark and display it.
Its i think first experiment that proved fully that light is physical, you see what it reflects from and you can manipulate it.
www.youtube.com

Making Your Own Room With a View | National Geographic

Watch as National Geographic magazine staffers demonstrate how to create your own room-size camera obscura.āž” Subscribe: http://bit.ly/NatGeoSubscribeAbout Na...

You can check this in DF video on this timestamp:
youtu.be

Minecraft RTX Beta Hands-On: How Path-Tracing Is A Gamechanger

A beta version of Minecraft RTX is available, delivering astonishing visual effects and the kind of realism in lighting that only path tracing can deliver. T...
 

StudioTan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,836
The Series X demo was a simple world that ran from 30 to 60fps @1080p, which means on average 45fps, if not less, that with less crowded enviroments, and lots of interiors. However the 2080Ti is able to sustain locked 60fps @1080p and complex worlds, and is likely running a much higher and complex set of visuals as well. Clearly the Series X RT capabilities are much lower than a 2080Ti or even a 2080.

I believe the XSX demo was running at native res while this PC version is using DLSS. The 2080ti isn't rendering at native 1080p.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,622
So how does one actually load up the Xbox Insider Hub?

I went to the page on the Windows Store and pressed: Purchased"

Now the install button is greyed out. Restarting my computer didn't resolve the issue... and from everything I can find, it doesn't consider it installed.

I really fucking hate the Windows Store...

Edit: Okay had to update Windows and then I installed it and also loaded it up. With my 2080 Super I'm getting 30s to 40s FPS with the occasional 50 fps. However it felt like not all of the RTX effects were working? Stuff seemed off. Will wait for it to exit beta.
 
Last edited:

Yogi

Banned
Nov 10, 2019
1,806
This absolutely looks transformative. It's worth the under 30fps on a 2080ti and 9900K in Minecraft. But how many next-gen games are we expecting to use path tracing like Minecraft and Quake II does? Like a handful of indies?

This will cause confusion with other raytraced titles not having nearly as impressive effects.

People are already expecting it as a standard for next-gen whenever they hear ray tracing, not realising they picked minecraft and quake II to implement it for good reason.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
This absolutely looks transformative. It's worth the under 30fps on a 2080ti and 9900K in Minecraft. But how many next-gen games are we expecting to use path tracing like Minecraft and Quake II does? Like a handful of indies?

This will cause confusion with other raytraced titles not having nearly as impressive effects.

People are already expecting it as a standard for next-gen whenever they hear ray tracing, not realising they picked minecraft and quake II to implement it for good reason.
a GI solution is probably the one effect that will sway many people. it's the least subtle effect in Minecraft and Quake, so doing that at least would prevent most confusion
 

Reckheim

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,369
I'm glad I went with a 1080p ultra-wide screen. Both this and Control ran reasonably well for me.

Raytracing definitely is a game changer.
 

RingRang

Alt account banned
Banned
Oct 2, 2019
2,442
This absolutely looks transformative. It's worth the under 30fps on a 2080ti and 9900K in Minecraft. But how many next-gen games are we expecting to use path tracing like Minecraft and Quake II does? Like a handful of indies?

This will cause confusion with other raytraced titles not having nearly as impressive effects.

People are already expecting it as a standard for next-gen whenever they hear ray tracing, not realising they picked minecraft and quake II to implement it for good reason.
Yes, you're getting at a concern I also share. It's hard to imagine graphically impressive games implementing these features in a really impressive way while also holding a solid frame rate.

It really makes me wonder if the coolest ray tracing demos on the next gen consoles will be these graphically simple games spruced up with path tracing.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
You can now make puzzles and gameplay entirely based upon the principles of light. That is a pretty big change. If you dramatically change a game's lighting, you change the gameplay quite a lot.
Reminds me of the Arkham Knight Riddler reflection puzzle. It's a well done fake, like a lot of fake reflections or lighting (Uncharted 4's last epilogue house).
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
Yes, you're getting at a concern I also share. It's hard to imagine graphically impressive games implementing these features in a really impressive way while also holding a solid frame rate.

It really makes me wonder if the coolest ray tracing demos on the next gen consoles will be these graphically simple games spruced up with path tracing.
a lot of these effects can be replicated in a more cost effective as we seen with Control through hybrid ray tracing. games built around global illumination would look as good as this without the huge performance penalty
 

Garrett 2U

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,511
DLSS is a game changer. I believe raytracing operations scale linearly with resolution, so by rendering the game at a lower native resolution and then scaling up with machine learning, you're saving a lot of power.
 

RingRang

Alt account banned
Banned
Oct 2, 2019
2,442
a lot of these effects can be replicated in a more cost effective as we seen with Control through hybrid ray tracing. games built around global illumination would look as good as this without the huge performance penalty
I guess that's one of those unknowns right now though. At what resolution and frame rate can the Series X run a game like Control with ray tracing? Hopefully we find out at launch with an update to the game.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
I guess that's one of those unknowns right now though. At what resolution and frame rate can the Series X run a game like Control with ray tracing? Hopefully we find out at launch with an update to the game.
we'll definitely find out before that, methinks. I can see MS using ray tracing extensively to better separate Xbox One versions and Series X version as an upgrade incentive. and of course, AMD will show off RDNA2 running DX12 games with RT (probably like control) so from that we can get a close guess as to Series X performance
 

Beatle

Member
Dec 4, 2017
1,123
DLSS forces a huge improvement in performance over the normally problematic performance of straight ray tracing
 

Monster Zero

Member
Nov 5, 2017
5,612
Southern California

I just did some research. As of April 2nd Sonic Ether is working on adding it for the next update:

"I'm migrating away from blocks either being light sources and fully glowing or not in favor of per-pixel light emission. That means that any block being a light or not will simply be based on textures. So, any block can give off any amount, color, or intensity of light!"​