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Digital Foundry - Ion Fury - Every Console Tested - How An Ancient Engine Stresses Current-Gen CPUs
- Thread starter Geobros
- Start date
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User Banned (Permanent): Equating hate speech with political views
If you already know how the game dev moves chances are someone else can find that same info, everyone in here has access to google.
DF has a specific role and it's not in the political commentary area. Let these dudes do the tech thing and leave it at that. If you are disappointed they don't do that then find a new tech reviewer that does or go to a reviewer that does a proper full context review of the way the dev moves and how it relates to the game design or content of the game.
John y'all put out hella interesting tech first, benign videos and I would like it to stay that way. If one of these devs was a whole ass, I'm sure we could simply Google search their names and get a wealth of YouTube commentary and other social stuff detailing it.
DF has a specific role and it's not in the political commentary area. Let these dudes do the tech thing and leave it at that. If you are disappointed they don't do that then find a new tech reviewer that does or go to a reviewer that does a proper full context review of the way the dev moves and how it relates to the game design or content of the game.
John y'all put out hella interesting tech first, benign videos and I would like it to stay that way. If one of these devs was a whole ass, I'm sure we could simply Google search their names and get a wealth of YouTube commentary and other social stuff detailing it.
Although not quite the same look, there's another game coming, also published by 3DRealms, called Wrath. It's like an old Quake game in full 3D, and at least in screenshots it looks glorious.
how often do you see a video for a cool looking video game and think "i like this, better do a quick search just to make sure some of the people who made it aren't Problematic"?
I understand not wanting to make another video on the game, but it would be nice to hear your opinion on Twitter once the patch comes out. Great video as usual.
Regardless of the problematic aspects of the game and its developers, I watched the video out of curiosity, which is great in its own right of course, as is always the case with your content.
Dark1x , I'm of two minds about the controversy:
- On the one hand, I totally respect your right to make this video and focus on the technical aspects. Especially since the port is handled by a different company altogether. And I also understand that it was already finished by the time you heard about the controversy.
- On the other hand, I don't think there is any need to torment yourself over what to do. Now, I'm not LGBT+, so take this for what it's worth, but it actually seems pretty straightforward and easy to me: you don't need to take down or remake the video; nothing as drastic as that. You don't need to write a manifesto either. Instead, you can simply edit the description of the video and/or add a stickied YouTube comment saying that you don't endorse the views of the original developers and the problematic content in the game, and that your video was already finished by the time you were made aware of it all. Doesn't have to be an elaborate message. I figure most people who take issue with the game will be satisfied with you simply addressing it in this fashion. At the very least, it'll be better than nothing. Do you think you could do that?
With that said... If you do that, be mentally prepared for some heavy backlash and possible dislike-bombing from trolls and bigots. If you look at the YouTube comments (which, one should never do, but, you know) right now, already there's an army of idiots who call out this forum for supposedly bullying you and whatnot. Like, all people are saying here is "hey, please mention the controversy and say you don't endorse", nothing more. But remember that the YouTube trolls are the same kind of people who completely review-bombed the game upon release when the developers decided to remove the problematic content (so much so that the developers eventually reintroduced part of the content). The review-bombing didn't come from so-called 'SJWs'. It came from the reactionaries. That's the level of pettiness and entitlement we're dealing with here - and ironically enough, they're accusing us of being entitled and 'triggered' for wanting bigoted childishness out of the game. They're babies who act like they don't want politics in their games, when in reality all they're saying is "we don't want any progressive politics, and we don't want to be challenged in any way that makes us uncomfortable".
Dark1x , I'm of two minds about the controversy:
- On the one hand, I totally respect your right to make this video and focus on the technical aspects. Especially since the port is handled by a different company altogether. And I also understand that it was already finished by the time you heard about the controversy.
- On the other hand, I don't think there is any need to torment yourself over what to do. Now, I'm not LGBT+, so take this for what it's worth, but it actually seems pretty straightforward and easy to me: you don't need to take down or remake the video; nothing as drastic as that. You don't need to write a manifesto either. Instead, you can simply edit the description of the video and/or add a stickied YouTube comment saying that you don't endorse the views of the original developers and the problematic content in the game, and that your video was already finished by the time you were made aware of it all. Doesn't have to be an elaborate message. I figure most people who take issue with the game will be satisfied with you simply addressing it in this fashion. At the very least, it'll be better than nothing. Do you think you could do that?
With that said... If you do that, be mentally prepared for some heavy backlash and possible dislike-bombing from trolls and bigots. If you look at the YouTube comments (which, one should never do, but, you know) right now, already there's an army of idiots who call out this forum for supposedly bullying you and whatnot. Like, all people are saying here is "hey, please mention the controversy and say you don't endorse", nothing more. But remember that the YouTube trolls are the same kind of people who completely review-bombed the game upon release when the developers decided to remove the problematic content (so much so that the developers eventually reintroduced part of the content). The review-bombing didn't come from so-called 'SJWs'. It came from the reactionaries. That's the level of pettiness and entitlement we're dealing with here - and ironically enough, they're accusing us of being entitled and 'triggered' for wanting bigoted childishness out of the game. They're babies who act like they don't want politics in their games, when in reality all they're saying is "we don't want any progressive politics, and we don't want to be challenged in any way that makes us uncomfortable".
Wanting people who cover games to name bigots isn't "forcing" anyone to engage in "politics". Giving bigots a platform to grow their brand has the blatantly obvious side effect of their bigotry reaching more people, particularly younger more impressionable people. Don't give bigotry an inch ever. Especially when something like this takes 10-20 seconds to squash in a YouTube video. Your last sentence is actually a thing that exists: the "the views express by..." disclaimer.
One of my biggest next-gen disappointments is that the new Xbox controller doesn't include gyro.
If it had gyro, it would be common across all the consoles and I think many more games would support it across the board.
That's my only cause for hesitance in suggesting that John even update the video description. I wouldn't want him subjected to that level of bullshit. It's easy for people here to suggest such a "simple" solution, but I consider ResetEra somewhat of a "safe space" in a sense, especially compared to something like YouTube, and I don't think most people here understand what he'd be opening himself up to by calling this out. I like John, but I don't think he could deal with the backlash from people on YouTube over something so minor as a change to the video description.
Thanks for your hard work, John. The situation you were dealing with was immediately clear in the other thread, and I think you responded perfectly; people understood you had *already* finished the video, you hadn't been aware of what happened with the original dev, and you even went so far as to immediately make clear your disgust with what they had done.
This video is still something you should be proud of, and the skill and excitement you put into it are clear-as-day.
I think the moment he does this, he'll be subjected to all sorts of other negative comments. I mean, some people get extremely riled up the moment they stray just a little bit away from tech analysis talk to more personal opinion talk.
Then there are those who somehow do not see any fault with the developers who will probably throw the most hateful insults you'll ever hear
Right, that I can get. No argument from me there. And if John's not in a good headspace right now I can understand why he'd be reluctant to do anything that might bring tons of grief on him. It's just a shame that we're at this point where you can get massive backlash for expressing the mildest of support for a minority group. I actually hate this tactic that those assholes use where they basically go "come on over to our side, we won't bully you, not like these SJW fascists", but the second you express a whiff of resistance, you get dislike/review-bombed/twitter-trolled to hell. Fucking gamers, man.
I'm glad at least that he'll stop covering the game and that he's weighed in on here. I just hope he'll be a bit more thorough in the future. I don't doubt his sincerity one bit when he says that he didn't know about the controversy, but it doesn't take a whole lot of research to stumble upon it even by chance, especially if you're an ERA member.
How? This was brought up many times in this thread that he made it clear he was reading by replying to many posts, yet ignored every one about Ion Fury. As a fan of the game he had to be aware of the huge controversy around it's release. It was again brought up in this thread before the release of this new video, with a response by him even.
Like I said in my original post in this thread, it's his decision if doesn't want to address the devs being bigots but lets at least be honest about it.
So I know it sucks to be subjected to online abuse.
but personally speaking, if it were me, I'd rather have a bunch of alt right losers pissed off at me than to sit idly by and not stand up for the LGBTQ+ community if I knew better.
If minorities and vulnerable communities had a nickel for every time someone didn't stick up for us because "it wasn't their job" perhaps we'd be as rich as the white-cis majority that exploited and prosecuted us.
Personally, I would have either included a note somewhere (be it at the start of the video, the description, a pinned comment, whatever) about the devs being bigotted, or I'd have pulled the video. I understand not wanting to have a mob coming after you, I understand now wanting to dumb hard work, and I understand just wanting to show off cool shit, I'm not going to fault the dude for making this video. I think it's a disservice to your viewers to not highlight it in some fashion, and the dipshits you want to avoid getting mobbed by will see it as approval and try to pull you in, something you can see in the comments of that video already.
It plays pretty great too. Needs bigger enemy variety tho, but they are still working on it.
User Banned (2 weeks): Dismissing concerns of bigotry.
But it is, literally, not his job. The whims or desires of any particular group don't need to be injected into any and every conversation about literally anything. He's here to present the technical merits of the game, nothing more.
Guys, take it down a bit.
Not everyone is on your same wavelength regarding those topics, some people may not want to be involved with in those discussions at all. That doesn't make them racists or bigots. This thread is and the previous one are a reminder of why. What you're doing is pretty much harassment.
If you specifically want to shame the devs, I suggest you make a video yourselves.
Not everyone is on your same wavelength regarding those topics, some people may not want to be involved with in those discussions at all. That doesn't make them racists or bigots. This thread is and the previous one are a reminder of why. What you're doing is pretty much harassment.
If you specifically want to shame the devs, I suggest you make a video yourselves.
Believe me, I am well aware of your counterpoint. The history books are replete with it.
Criticism in a 2-page thread isn't harassment. Please don't forget that people talking about video games aren't the victim of hate speech just because part of the audience thinks that's worth bringing up, criticizing the people who ignore it because they just don't want to engage with that fact. The people affected by hate speech are the victims of hate speech.
Ion Fury is a game containing homophobic content with their devs expressively and proudly defending this homophobic content with further sexist and transphobic comments on their discord. It's absolutely 100% not harassment if people think that that warrants a disclaimer at the very least when talking about said game and voicing that criticism. And while I sympathize with John, who put a lot of work into this video probably just not thinking about this, he is really, really not the victim here.
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You can criticise the devs all you want, but criticising DF for not mentioning the controversy? Come on. They are a tech channel, they have no obligation at all to do that, and are in their very right to not get involved in the issue if they don't want to.
Anyway, great video as always! I was hoping for 60fps on the switch though :( still, game looks damn great.
Anyway, great video as always! I was hoping for 60fps on the switch though :( still, game looks damn great.
Didn't people jump on him enough in the last thread about this? He acknowledged the situation but said the video was already finished.
Wouldn't blame him. This is the 2nd thread derailed for this.
If it is so important to someone, you can research stuff like this before buying a game just like you researched if a random game runs at 60fps or whatever. It's not that hard. And if you don't do this, you might not even care as much as you thought you would.
You want to force someone to do something that he probably just doesn't care for as much as you do. Accept it and move on. Don't watch the content if you don't agree with their stance. Never heard of anyone watching/reading DF because of their amazingly deep research in bigotry.
It is scary how a desire to raise LGBTQ awareness has been distorted into "pushing propaganda" by right wing media. And how criticism of Dark1x's actions has been distorted into "directed harassment" - nobody here has stepped out of bounds from what I have observed.
Look at the other thread. Dark1x admits that his frustration comes from voidpoint, the bigoted folks who started this mess in the first place, and not the people in this forum. He offers to leave because he knows that the game he loves has been tainted permanently - thanks to voidpoint's transphobia, he is unable to share his love for its game without hurting people in marginalized groups.
And here is a hot take that I will hide since I know that certain unscrupulous lurkers are browsing this thread:
Look at the other thread. Dark1x admits that his frustration comes from voidpoint, the bigoted folks who started this mess in the first place, and not the people in this forum. He offers to leave because he knows that the game he loves has been tainted permanently - thanks to voidpoint's transphobia, he is unable to share his love for its game without hurting people in marginalized groups.
And here is a hot take that I will hide since I know that certain unscrupulous lurkers are browsing this thread:
Hidden content
I'm surprised the transphobic content hasn't been patched out (permanently patched out, that is. If I recall, it was patched out and then patched back in). The developers stubbornly defending a bad joke is silly.
This wasn't a bad video, but it's kind of weird from a tech standpoint. The situation was basically "Hey, here's a single-threaded engine pushing a crazy amount of draw calls and with a slow script interpreter." So this ended up being less about clever tricks to get the most out of system's performance and more about applying basic optimizations which are the norm for any other engine.
This wasn't a bad video, but it's kind of weird from a tech standpoint. The situation was basically "Hey, here's a single-threaded engine pushing a crazy amount of draw calls and with a slow script interpreter." So this ended up being less about clever tricks to get the most out of system's performance and more about applying basic optimizations which are the norm for any other engine.
In the last thread someone said by posting videos praising this game and never mentioning the in game bigotry it gives the appearance they support it or at least don't care.
That viewpoint is now solidified. Refusing to acknowledge it IS taking a stance on it. DF chose who they want to side with, and it wasn't marginalized groups.
Even a twitter post can help.
That viewpoint is now solidified. Refusing to acknowledge it IS taking a stance on it. DF chose who they want to side with, and it wasn't marginalized groups.
Even a twitter post can help.
For me I almost try to avoid learning too much about the artists/people behind things I like, because so many times I end up disappointing or disgusted and it ends up running my enjoyment of these things when it turns out they are racist, or otherwise hateful people.
But yeah, I guess we shoudl be looking into these things. Ultimately even if I like "thing", "thing" is not more important than people.
But yeah, I guess we shoudl be looking into these things. Ultimately even if I like "thing", "thing" is not more important than people.
Expressing disappointment is not harassment or an attack. DF is not a victim in this situation.
Exactly! Nothing stopped them from simply acknowledging it in the description. That was a choice and for that the criticism is warranted.
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All I ask is for a disclaimer in the description or a stickied comment acknowledging the bigoted content in the game. A content warning!
I really don't think it's much and the hysterical reaction to people criticising John is an embarrassment to this forum. LGBT folk live with much worse every day but an expression of disappointment for signal boosting bigoted content somehow crosses the line?
I really don't think it's much and the hysterical reaction to people criticising John is an embarrassment to this forum. LGBT folk live with much worse every day but an expression of disappointment for signal boosting bigoted content somehow crosses the line?
No, I know. I'm just saying the decision on whether or not to add a disclaimer may even not be up to John. He's said in the past he doesn't title his videos, for example, so I'm not sure how much he actually controls the YouTube account.
In most larger online publication, uploading and setting video descriptions are delegated. While I think criticisms of the lack of disclaimer are fair, the assumption that it's a singular person's choice or negligence are a little questionable.
It's a rough situation, regardless.
It's a rough situation, regardless.
You may not think so but you guys did manage to hurt John's feelings bad enough to make him leave, and for what, exactly? Are you proud that you've shamed him for literally doing his job and paying attention to the technical aspects of the game? Why is it their responsibility to address these things? People from this forum are also going and leaving comments on the video calling them privileged and irresponsible.
DF almost never goes into metacommentary about the games they cover, so why are people being so jerky about this? Leave the guy alone. He's posted here long enough that you should know he's a good dude and wouldn't endorse homophobia. And now you've gone and made him feel unwelcome.
John, if you read this, I would just stay gone honestly. It's really not worth being bullied by people who swear they're not bullies.
It's absurd to expect Digital Foundry to have given some kind of disclaimer about the original devs in a technical examination of these console ports done by another developer. Even if it were the original devs behind the ports it wouldn't really be necessary for Digital Foundry to veer into that territory in one of their analysis videos.
Awareness is good and all, but come on.
Awareness is good and all, but come on.
I think it's a great, even better than usual, technical video. Getting down to very nitty gritty explaining the technical challenges.
Kinda wonder at the ogg debate they had internally. That seems like the sort of thing that might have transpired over a day (maybe it was).
Kinda wonder at the ogg debate they had internally. That seems like the sort of thing that might have transpired over a day (maybe it was).
Right there with you. There's plenty of avenues people can take to voice their concerns, no need to harass someone who makes great content for not explaining some people there being crap people.
I think that mentioning it would have been nice, but I also won't blame DF if they didn't think about it since they're a tech channel.
As for the game, it was the first title that I played through in 1440p/144Hz on my new Gsync monitor which was a cool experience.
As for the game, it was the first title that I played through in 1440p/144Hz on my new Gsync monitor which was a cool experience.
I agree with John's assessment regarding the gamepad. The sensitivity is way too high by default. After some tweaking I found some settings that felt OK and played through the entire game. Also, if you lower a specific setting too much, some jumps become impossible to make.
Someone in the last thread (SuperNESJoe) noted that behavior like all the people jumping on John for discussing the game is EXACTLY why members of the press and some game devs bail from this site: all the derailment and harassment going on in these two threads is fucking dumb and it accomplishes nothing.
He knows the point. He's very unhappy that the devs are bigots thinking that their lame jokes don't need to be edited, since them planning to edit it caused their game to get reviewed bombed hard. He also knows that 3D Realms as a publisher wanted to fix this but the devs are stubborn and won't change it, and there's little they as a publisher can really do except make it so that anything they make in the future doesn't try to pull that shit.
These console ports are done by a porting company, that as mentioned in the video, have done a pretty decent job with making the actual game run well and allow for higher framerates via a code, despite some quirks to be ironed out: For those coming in and seeing this game as a 3D shooter throwback without knowing of anything prior, they'll want to play it because it's a throwback and a well built one on a technical level. It's super freaking shitty the devs are awful and I'm not touching the game for that reason, but to associate anyone who played it unaware of that controversy, or just because they wanted to support 3D Realms/General Arcade because they see a new FPS and go "oh hey, it's just like their old stuff they published" is really stupid.
Heck, I'll even give a personal story to share my own struggles with another dev/publisher I do not like at all: I bought Crystal Crisis for Nintendo Switch last summer because I wanted a cool Puzzle Fighter-ish game and it looked like a fun throwback. I enjoyed it immensely and had fun with it, and was even in a discord with some of the devs on the team who were ultra nice and very helpful at fixing bugs.
Then Nicalis is outed as being heavily racist and ran by a horribly shitty CEO that has stolen/wronged people out of so many games, and I feel incredibly pissed. I felt worse for the devs I met in that discord who were nice knowing the shit they likely go through/the possibility they too may be awful people, and I didn't feel like touching the game much at all after that. I've told peers that I wouldn't feel too good about buying that game new if they weren't aware of the situation, and have definitely told them to stay far away from anything new they publish like the Ikaruga physicals.
But I still own the game, still enjoy the game and the work of the team as it's fun and well made, so I'm gradually playing it to clear my backlog before I can just put it away for good. Does that make me a horrid person? I owned the game before knowing their shit would happen, and I'm never touching a CC2 if they make one, nor will I buy anything else from Nicalis ever again unless the CEO, his brother and every shitty person at that company is replaced. (unlikely due to them owning the place and stories from other devs who worked with them painting those two are pretty abusive in power) But the point is, I own the game and can't just poof it from existence due to things I found out later: The refund point is long past anyhow.
That's pretty much what folks like LGR and John have gone through too: A great game made by some shitty people that they had no idea about until after the fact: They condemned them, and that's all they can really do. If the devs are stupidly stubborn and won't have the courtesy to do the right thing instead of standing their ground and thinking shitty bigoted "jokes" are funny, then that's unfortunately not something that can be changed. Instead it just teaches me to not touch anything those devs make in the future and leave it at that. Period. I'm not gonna hassle someone who enjoyed the game as a throwback or was unaware of the situation when they bought it. Nor am I gonna pester them to include disclaimers on every video they made: The best and most effective time for that would have been the original review for Ion Fury, or review of any future DLC they make, not a tech analysis meant to focus on the console ports done by people unrelated to those devs.
Besides, I can assure you that it would probably do no good, sadly. Quite a few comments on the video are praising John for not mentioning it and poking fun of the last thread here, since a Twitter post screen-capped bits of the last thread to poke fun of people and that got the same crowd out who got pissed over the original plans to edit that content out. If he changed the description this late into the game, it would just cause him to get harassed by that crowd and make things uglier, and I can definitely see why he'd rather not do that and just leave this as the last IF video and leave it be as-is.
So yeah, definitely agree with those here who are disappointed in the game's content not being changed, but I'm also agreeing with those who think the reaction and derailment are way, way overblown. Other people have explained this better than I could but I figured I'd chime in as someone who had a similar experience buying a game only for things to be learned that led to me realizing it was by a shitty developer/publisher.
He knows the point. He's very unhappy that the devs are bigots thinking that their lame jokes don't need to be edited, since them planning to edit it caused their game to get reviewed bombed hard. He also knows that 3D Realms as a publisher wanted to fix this but the devs are stubborn and won't change it, and there's little they as a publisher can really do except make it so that anything they make in the future doesn't try to pull that shit.
These console ports are done by a porting company, that as mentioned in the video, have done a pretty decent job with making the actual game run well and allow for higher framerates via a code, despite some quirks to be ironed out: For those coming in and seeing this game as a 3D shooter throwback without knowing of anything prior, they'll want to play it because it's a throwback and a well built one on a technical level. It's super freaking shitty the devs are awful and I'm not touching the game for that reason, but to associate anyone who played it unaware of that controversy, or just because they wanted to support 3D Realms/General Arcade because they see a new FPS and go "oh hey, it's just like their old stuff they published" is really stupid.
Heck, I'll even give a personal story to share my own struggles with another dev/publisher I do not like at all: I bought Crystal Crisis for Nintendo Switch last summer because I wanted a cool Puzzle Fighter-ish game and it looked like a fun throwback. I enjoyed it immensely and had fun with it, and was even in a discord with some of the devs on the team who were ultra nice and very helpful at fixing bugs.
Then Nicalis is outed as being heavily racist and ran by a horribly shitty CEO that has stolen/wronged people out of so many games, and I feel incredibly pissed. I felt worse for the devs I met in that discord who were nice knowing the shit they likely go through/the possibility they too may be awful people, and I didn't feel like touching the game much at all after that. I've told peers that I wouldn't feel too good about buying that game new if they weren't aware of the situation, and have definitely told them to stay far away from anything new they publish like the Ikaruga physicals.
But I still own the game, still enjoy the game and the work of the team as it's fun and well made, so I'm gradually playing it to clear my backlog before I can just put it away for good. Does that make me a horrid person? I owned the game before knowing their shit would happen, and I'm never touching a CC2 if they make one, nor will I buy anything else from Nicalis ever again unless the CEO, his brother and every shitty person at that company is replaced. (unlikely due to them owning the place and stories from other devs who worked with them painting those two are pretty abusive in power) But the point is, I own the game and can't just poof it from existence due to things I found out later: The refund point is long past anyhow.
That's pretty much what folks like LGR and John have gone through too: A great game made by some shitty people that they had no idea about until after the fact: They condemned them, and that's all they can really do. If the devs are stupidly stubborn and won't have the courtesy to do the right thing instead of standing their ground and thinking shitty bigoted "jokes" are funny, then that's unfortunately not something that can be changed. Instead it just teaches me to not touch anything those devs make in the future and leave it at that. Period. I'm not gonna hassle someone who enjoyed the game as a throwback or was unaware of the situation when they bought it. Nor am I gonna pester them to include disclaimers on every video they made: The best and most effective time for that would have been the original review for Ion Fury, or review of any future DLC they make, not a tech analysis meant to focus on the console ports done by people unrelated to those devs.
Besides, I can assure you that it would probably do no good, sadly. Quite a few comments on the video are praising John for not mentioning it and poking fun of the last thread here, since a Twitter post screen-capped bits of the last thread to poke fun of people and that got the same crowd out who got pissed over the original plans to edit that content out. If he changed the description this late into the game, it would just cause him to get harassed by that crowd and make things uglier, and I can definitely see why he'd rather not do that and just leave this as the last IF video and leave it be as-is.
So yeah, definitely agree with those here who are disappointed in the game's content not being changed, but I'm also agreeing with those who think the reaction and derailment are way, way overblown. Other people have explained this better than I could but I figured I'd chime in as someone who had a similar experience buying a game only for things to be learned that led to me realizing it was by a shitty developer/publisher.
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