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eathdemon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,680
www.resetera.com

4k/30fps or 1080p/60fps?

This might have been a poll a long time ago, but I couldn’t find anything... I recently got an Xbox Series S and I already had an Xbox One X. I haven’t unloaded my One X yet because there’s several games in native 4k on it that are 1080p on the Series S. Yet some of those games run at 60fps...

Yeah I don't really get the outrage. What's important is we're getting the option to choose 30 or 60. If they could do 4k60 obviously they would have.
the outrage is dumb, they definitely played very conservatively with their performance budget, which is a good thing.
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,111
Los Angeles, CA
Just wanted to say that not only do I appreciate your reply, there is at least one gamer left here that has been around long enough to know that resolution is not the end all be all many people are making it out to be. Then again I have also been around long enough that perhaps my expectations have always been in check, especially for a massive open world multi platform game. I also come from the school of thought first and foremost a game has to actually play well for me to enjoy it and visuals have and always will remain to be an added bonus. I personally play video games to play them. Sure, higher resolution is always welcome, I will not say it is not, but I am not going to dismiss a game if it happens to be the same resolution as games from a previous generation, especially when it has things like Ray Tracing enabled.

Thank you! I really appreciate it!

I've also been around long, and I guess my perspective has always been pure amazement that gaming has become what it has in terms of technology and visuals!

I mean, I grew up in the 80's, cutting my gaming teeth on the Atari 2600 and the NES, and when I look at where we're at now in terms of visuals, presentation, and gameplay, I'm genuinely blown away. To go from something like Pitfall on the Atari 2600, to Uncharted 4 on the PS4, in the span of 30 years, is amazing to me. Even just thinking about how far 3D gaming has come since the 90's, I'm like, "Wow, the things we can do now..."

And having worked in the gaming industry since 2004, I've also developed a new appreciation for the amount of work across all disciplines that goes into making games, and how herculean a task it is to even get a game to Gold and releasing it is. It's even more impressive to me now than it ever was before I worked in the industry, is when a game can release in a polished state, especially as they've become increasingly more complex to produce! All games have bugs and issues, of course, but if you can release a game that doesn't have any significantly damaging bugs, and runs well, and is fun for players? Man, that's the dream.

I haven't been following Dying Light 2, and I haven't read any reviews about it, so I don't know how polished of an experience it is, but Digital Foundry is usually pretty good at pointing that stuff out, even in their tech analysis videos, so I'm definitely impressed with Techland in regards to what they've pulled off with this game, and optimistic that they'll iron out the kinks over time post launch.

I don't think it can be stated enough how hard this pandemic has made our jobs (going on year 2 of working from home myself, and it's still a challenge, even though we've adapted rather well to the shift to remote work). Executing a game of this scale, with these conditions, is just very impressive to me. Honestly, that goes for a ton of studios putting out the games they have over the past 2 years. Just really commendable work.
 

Niklel

Prophet of Regret
Member
Aug 10, 2020
3,987
Yeah, no. That's not the game I would suffer 30 fps or even 1080p for.
 

Niklel

Prophet of Regret
Member
Aug 10, 2020
3,987
Gamers: Resolution isn't important, 60 fps or bust!

Also gamers: 60fps goes down to 1080p? Trash, unoptimized, pre-order cancelled.
1. It feels like we are a bit too early in this gen to make compromises.
2. It's a cross-gen game.

3. But for me at least my tolerance for resolution and frame rate also depends on how excited I am for a game.
If a game I am really interested in offers a choice between "high resolution @30fps" and "1080p @60fps", I would chose the 60fps option easily. But if I am only kinda interested to try a game, but not sure if I am going to enjoy it, then I personally wouldn't agree to anything less than approximately 1440p@60fps.
 

His Majesty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,171
Belgium
1. It feels like we are a bit too early in this gen to make compromises.
2. It's a cross-gen game.

3. But for me at least my tolerance for resolution and frame rate also depends on how excited I am for a game.
If a game I am really interested in offers a choice between "high resolution @30fps" and "1080p @60fps", I would chose the 60fps option easily. But if I am only kinda interested to try a game, but not sure if I am going to enjoy it, then I personally wouldn't agree to anything less than approximately 1440p@60fps.
Cross-gen game is a bit of a strange description though that doesn't really tell the whole picture. Going by the impressive and widespread RT implementation it seems like a game developed for PC first and foremost, with significant compromises made for consoles which lack the power required for this type of RT. That is understandable and not something to be dissuased imo.
 

Ada

Member
Nov 28, 2017
3,734
RT is pointless on these machines without reconstruction. 30fps is a no go
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,884
Techland's team was unable to use the SSDs in any of the new consoles or PC to full effect, and they have clearly not used the PS5's API either. The net result is that we see a very "last-gen" loading experience. In my test it took 24 seconds on both Series consoles and 32 seconds on PS5 (32% slower)
 

dgrdsv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,879
I would point out the metro remaster was able to do full rt, including rt lighting, and do 60fps. there's also alot of dev stuff like vrs and mesh shaders, which should give devs extra headroom.
Metro EE doesn't do "full RT", it only does RT GI with DRS dropping the game down to the same 1080p in heavy scenes, and it's a thoroughly previous gen game at that.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,632
Techland's team was unable to use the SSDs in any of the new consoles or PC to full effect, and they have clearly not used the PS5's API either. The net result is that we see a very "last-gen" loading experience. In my test it took 24 seconds on both Series consoles and 32 seconds on PS5 (32% slower)
The thing is it's "last gen" as in last gen PC SSD speed, and not last gen console loading speed. As 30 second load time for an open world game with no other load time is an order of magnitude above anything on last gen consoles.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,632
I would point out the metro remaster was able to do full rt, including rt lighting, and do 60fps. there's also alot of dev stuff like vrs and mesh shaders, which should give devs extra headroom.
Metro isn't really a proper open world despite having somewhat open areas, it also lacks any verticality whatsoever meaning it doesn't have to deal with a dense open world environment that demands detail not only on foot level but also above. Additionally it too drops to 1080P and it is last gen in terms of a lot of shader effects whereas this game does have some things that are beyond last gen.
 

Unknown

Member
Oct 29, 2017
260
I looks to me that the "Ray traced shadows" at least for the grass are just (quite poor quality) screen space shadows. Which really shouldn't be that expensive.

SSS makes way more sense for grass anyway, as true ray tracing is horribly inefficient at alpha testing, animated geo and highly overlapped geometry - which is 3 out of 3 for grass.

You can see it clearly in the video at ~ 12:22 on the right bottom of the screen, the shadows are fading in as the casters appear on screen.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,632
I looks to me that the "Ray traced shadows" at least for the grass are just (quite poor quality) screen space shadows. Which really shouldn't be that expensive.
If it's ray traced shadows then by that very merit it's not screen space shadows.

SSS makes way more sense for grass anyway, as true ray tracing is horribly inefficient at alpha testing, animated geo and highly overlapped geometry - which is 3 out of 3 for grass.

You can see it clearly in the video at ~ 12:22 on the right bottom of the screen, the shadows are fading in as the casters appear on screen.
Yea I was thinking that it's be quite odd to have moving alpha textures in the BVH. But then again we've seen non particle based explosions in RT reflections before.

And yea those grass shadows are definitely screen space shadows.
 
Oct 30, 2017
3,629
So the PS5 loads the slowest?
WTF thats can't be right.

Without proper use of the PS5 SSD API it's leaving a lot of performance on the table so it relies mostly on CPU performance for decompression, which the PS5 SSD I/O chip was designed to elevate the CPU in the first place, and the X is faster in raw CPU on that front. Granted that doesn't explain the Series S being faster, that may be due to having less RAM to load into.

I really enjoyed the first game, but seems like that one, we need to wait for more patches.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,632
Without proper use of the PS5 SSD API it's leaving a lot of performance on the table so it relies mostly on CPU performance for decompression, which the PS5 SSD I/O chip was designed to elevate the CPU in the first place, and the X is faster in raw CPU on that front. Granted that doesn't explain the Series S being faster, that may be due to having less RAM to load into.

I really enjoyed the first game, but seems like that one, we need to wait for more patches.
We are getting a day one patch with like 1000 bug fix.
 

wafflebrain

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,235
This is silly though, hey lets compare a $500 machine to what exactly a $2500 PC. Not shocked at all.

RT on and off comparisons are nothing new to this site and it isn't silly at all. People like me with PC and current gen systems seeing this sort of comparison helps me lean towards getting it on PC for the RTGI.

You're gonna have a rough time this gen if seeing these kinds of side by sides bother you this much, it's not going away and especially in DF threads.
 

Faenix1

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,114
Canada
I assume the Series/PS5 versions are not ACTUALLY current gen.. or is this gonna be it? Don't have a PS5 yet but I've been waiting so long for this game. lol
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
The game ia not using BC Mode - it has RT. Impossible in BC Mode for both consoles. Not sure why he would think that is a thing.

Perhaps I misunderstood then. What was actually said.

"With no velocity architecture API ready in DX12U just yet, this is demonstrated by them not being able to use the SSD's and the power of the consoles, and it clearly means they haven't used the PS5's API either, as we see a very last gen loading experience. 24 seconds on the Series X and Series S, 36% slower on PS5, and 27 seconds on an SSD powered PC, means that you're probably going to get better performance the faster your CPU is. It also means that they likely have used the GNMX equivalent here on PS5, to ease such a monstrous development challenge, across all those 7 consoles, multiple PC's, and even Cloud gaming versions. It's a minor loss, but it's still a relatively fast loader, just not one that takes advantage of the hardware here".
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,632
Perhaps I misunderstood then. What was actually said.

"With no velocity architecture API ready in DX12U just yet, this is demonstrated by them not being able to use the SSD's and the power of the consoles, and it clearly means they haven't used the PS5's API either, as we see a very last gen loading experience. 24 seconds on the Series X and Series S, 36% slower on PS5, and 27 seconds on an SSD powered PC, means that you're probably going to get better performance the faster your CPU is. It also means that they likely have used the GNMX equivalent here on PS5, to ease such a monstrous development challenge, across all those 7 consoles, multiple PC's, and even Cloud gaming versions. It's a minor loss, but it's still a relatively fast loader, just not one that takes advantage of the hardware here".
All that's saying is that it's not using the SSD to its fullest potential and is relying a lot on the CPU to do the decompression (hence why Series X is faster). But even it's "last gen loading experience" is more like last gen PC SSD experience since 30 seconds for an open world game with no other loading is many many orders of magnitude faster than anything PS4 and Xbox One could do
 

eathdemon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,680
not even sure quality mode is worth it tbh, 1080p/30 but no rt lighting is weird, open world or not.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,632
not even sure quality mode is worth it tbh, 1080p/30 but no rt lighting is weird, open world or not.
It has RTAO and RT shadows, it's also using the max settings from PC apparently which seems to be bringing its own feature set such as (non RT) GI and screen space shadows for foliage as both are absent in other modes.
 

JigglesBunny

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
31,119
Chicago
I assume the Series/PS5 versions are not ACTUALLY current gen.. or is this gonna be it? Don't have a PS5 yet but I've been waiting so long for this game. lol
No, these are the current-gen versions. This isn't a PS4/One game running through backwards compatibility, these are native current-gen versions. They may improve via patches in the future but this is the lay of the land for now.
 

Ricker

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,987
Beautiful Province of Quebec.
I will probably go with RT mode I guess...but saying that I wont know till I play it...I usually try Quality but if I try 60 FPS,I tend to leave it there...Immortals Fenix Rising for example,going back to Quality after playing Performance was too jarring.
 

JigglesBunny

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
31,119
Chicago
Good question. Dynamic resolution between something like 536p-720p.
Since none of the current-gen SKUs are using any dynamic resolution techniques, I suspect the last-gen machines won't be either and will likely rest at a lower native resolution. If I had to make a totally out of nowhere guess, I'd suspect 720p on Xbox One and 900p on PS4. If we see the tried and true 900p/1080p split, I'll be genuinely floored given the state of the current-gen versions.
 

threi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,005
Ontario, Canada
Well on the positive side when Techland gets acquired they will have the resources to optimize their games for glorious 4k 60fps glory!

Thats what everyone here wants, right?

Win win, right?
 

Nzyme32

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,245
This game is quite a curious one. I'm definitely interested in seeing the more technically minded clarify on why the game is as it is, and some decisions were made such as not going all in with the PS5/XSX SSDs. RT looks great.
 

Darren Lamb

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,832
This game is quite a curious one. I'm definitely interested in seeing the more technically minded clarify on why the game is as it is, and some decisions were made such as not going all in with the PS5/XSX SSDs. RT looks great.

Yeah same. My first reaction was similar to others in here; I don't really want 1080p/60fps to be a thing with the PS5/Series X at this stage, but I can't say it's not appropriate for what the game is trying to do.

Series S at 30FPS only is disappointing, but I feel like the Series S has been the main casualty of this cross-gen period. From a layman I get the impression it's not a huge priority to maximize performance there, optimizing for that platform seems to be the most inefficient use of time for devs who are trying to get things out the door with all the issues WFH provides