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Do we need mid gen refreshes(PS5 Pro/Xbox Series X Pro)?

  • Yes, and I would buy one

  • Yes, but won't buy one

  • No, but I would buy one

  • No, and I wouldn't buy one

  • i'd prefer a switch 2 pro


Results are only viewable after voting.

Gemüsepizza

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,541
Like I wrote in the other thread, I don't find the arguments in the video very compelling. Imo, Richard is focusing too much on the economic aspect, and overestimates the importance of keeping cost down. The whole scalper issue has shown that there are quite a few people who are willing to spend more money on consoles. And the PS5 Pro would actually offer an appropriate value for that price.

I also think the PS4 Pro and XOX were deliberately designed in a very conservative way, because it was completely unclear at that point if there is any demand at all and how the market would react. We now know that mid-gen consoles do work, and that there is a market for them. That's why I would not be surprised if we see powerful machines with higher prices. It also makes a lot of sense looking at Microsoft's line up for example, they already have a cheap and normal priced console, a more expensive mid-gen console would fit right in.
 

Tora

The Enlightened Wise Ones
Member
Jun 17, 2018
8,640
Oh ok a Matt confirmation has made me happy

Tho, still waiting on PS5 to increase the bandwidth of the HDMI 2.1 port lol
 

Dringus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,929
I mean I'd buy one... but the real answer is no, we need devs to drop last gen, that's the real issue right now and what we should be focusing on.
 

abellwillring

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,940
Austin, TX
There is no way we're close to reaching the limits of the existing machines, so no I don't think we need one.. but yes I'd buy one of each. I'd probably keep both of my originals and put them on the other TV and then I could sell my PS4 Pro I saved as a BRD player.
 

lunarworks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,179
Toronto
We've already entered the territory of diminishing returns, so it's a good idea to calm down for a few years and wait until there can be a real jump in power. All that's needed right now is an SoC node reduction to get these things smaller, cooler, quieter, and cheaper.

Oh yeah, and to get them up to full manufacturing capacity and make some games for them.
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
The whole scalper issue has shown that there are quite a few people who are willing to spend more money on consoles. And the PS5 Pro would actually offer an appropriate value for that price.
We'll never know how many scalpers are selling consoles and whether thats enough for those companies. I believe the fact that Sony and MS sold the console at a loss at launch, shows that these companies believe price is crucial to reach mass market. Sony even got out of their way to do a 400$ model, which is priced aggressively and Xbox obviously made the Series S.

The upgraded console will target the core gamers and those are less price sensitive. However the PS4 Pro and One X didn't set the world on fire at 400/500$ respectively. How successful would a 600-800$ console be?
 

RivalGT

Member
Dec 13, 2017
6,401
I actually didn't know about the 6nm parts, I thought they go straight to 5nm. With a 6nm part, then I think its more likely that we get a refresh, I do wonder if the systems would get a redesign. I guess 6nm makes more sense to them if they want to achieve their sales targets, which up till now they haven't been able to with 7nm.

I do think a Pro level system will come eventually with the 5nm part, but it just wont be any time soon, maybe 2-3 years from now.

Found this quote interesting from a PCgamer article
"AMD's 'fundamental' 6nm Ryzen upgrade promises 'massive increase in yield'"
 

Tora

The Enlightened Wise Ones
Member
Jun 17, 2018
8,640
Would be surprised if the mid-gen revisions didn't happen though tbh. Neither platform holder will want the other to be the only one to do it.
I do wonder just how much each company knows about each others respective plans when it comes to a pro console. One X was a year later than PS4 Pro so it could happen again if either deems it necessary for whatever reason.
i used to hate Tora in dub and now im near the end of the game and love Tora in Japanese VA
Haha sick, he really is a character you either love or hate
 

Soap

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,207
I really would advise people to consider getting a PC as a midgen refresh. You can get an extremely powerful machine at a decent price a few years into a generation.
 

pswii60

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,677
The Milky Way
I do wonder just how much each company knows about each others respective plans when it comes to a pro console. One X was a year later than PS4 Pro so it could happen again if either deems it necessary for whatever reason.
Although One X was officially announced before the Pro! We had rumours of both for quite a while though.
 

nekkid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,823
Considering how long cross gen lasts, what's the point in refreshes over slightly shorter gens?
 

RedHeat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,691
I don't know if I "need" a refresh, but I would more than likely buy a PS5 Pro. I don't mind upscaling, but 1440p/1800p/whatever odd resolution isn't satisfying enough.
 

Skeff

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,628
Need? No.

Want? Why not? You're not forced to purchase them and last gen at least the base consoles were not neglected. The pro will just be higher res and framers and that's about it.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,236
I said it before with regards to stock shortages, but remember what will happen when a PS5 Pro comes out. The core consumers that already have a PS5 will upgrade to Pro and trade in their PS5. Mid gen refresh will increase availability more than just making more standard PS5s
 

Mona-chan

Member
Oct 31, 2017
583
I don't think they're necessary as we're barely seeing any games go above and beyond in pushing the console's hardware. However, I'd buy both a PS5 Pro and an XSX refresh on the condition that we're seeing real boosts to game performance, especially with regards to 120fps titles.
 

CatAssTrophy

Member
Dec 4, 2017
7,635
Texas
I don't see it happening before 2025 but a midgen console focused on AI upscaling, improved RT features, and a focus on 60fps would be cool. It would definitely be more of a "Pro" audience model than last time though

Bingo.

Also: PS5 Pro would have a larger integrated SSD to satisfy those that thought the currently included capacity was too small and can't/don't want to expand.
 

Dynamo

Member
Jan 1, 2021
84
Do we need them right now ? Not really.
In 2024 when UE5 games are common and run at 1080p@30fps (like the matrix demo) ? Hell yeah.
 

TheKid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,519
Bay Area
Waiting for a 2nd gen ps5 pro. Happy with my current Xbox series x at the moment but if silent hill is exclusive I will have to buy a ps5
 
Oct 27, 2017
20,764
I'm happy that they Seem to be on the side of no Pros, or at least much later than thought.

Just shrink them down, cut costs, make the new systems more accessible after two years of shortages and leave it at that. They're not going to add anything meaningful than moderately improved performance and better frame rates. I can't imagine how hard that would be to market when last gen pro systems had 4K.

They can already "do" 8k even if it would be just upscaling but 8K is looking like 2025 or later before even modest consumer adoption.

No need to rush, we've barely scratched the surface with these systems. I'd like this gen to last longer too, 2027-28 works so that by then 16 core CPUs, 32-64GB ram, 30-50Tfs with SSDs at 10-15GB/s are possible in a $500 box late this decade.
 

Rask

Member
Oct 25, 2017
467
I really would advise people to consider getting a PC as a midgen refresh. You can get an extremely powerful machine at a decent price a few years into a generation.
This is what I did for the PS3 and PS4 gens. Suddenly I could play current gen games in 1080/60 instead of 720/30 and it was pretty great. This gen I upgraded the same year I got a PS5 though, so we'll see how that goes...
 

nihilence

nøthing but silence
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
15,952
From 'quake area to big OH.
Rich makes a good argument why is not happening, or not as fast and early as some hoped.

Plans are plans. And it's probably 3-4 years away.

Would I buy one? Depends, I'm happy for now.
 

Deleted member 10780

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 16, 2022
1,366
No, massive waste of money and resources (R&D)

Just stop developing for last gen. The PS5 and Series X are more than enough. Console games will always prioritize graphics over framerate so a PS5+ or Series One X is just going to offer slightly better shadows and maybe 4 extra NPCs
 

Foxisdabest

Banned
May 8, 2022
1,050
I don't see the point of a mid gen refresh when god knows when the base consoles will be readily available.

Like, i only see the point of a refresh if i have had the console for a good 3 years. I don't think i will get a ps5 at MRSP by the end of this year.
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,891
Columbia, SC
I definitely think pro consoles are not needed yet. A slim model that's cheaper and easier to produce? Absolutely needed since demand is still nowhere near being met right now. I wouldn't even consider it a need until you can just walk into any store and just pick one up.
 

Spork4000

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
8,528
the proper video is up



I think Rich is right about most of this, but I think he's incorrect on one key area. If enhanced consoles come, I think they're absolutely coming at a premium over the current models, and that the audience their selling to would be willing to buy them. A $600 PS5 Pro that has 60 CUs and clocked at 3.0 ghz on tsmc 5 nm should be doable in 2024 and sell decently well to the nontechnical crowd that want the extra power, no telling if Sony sees that as worth it though.
 

Stooge

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,248
To me the dumb thing is that

1) Most people don't have the base systems.
2) Most games are just last-gen games running with better features/resolution/frame rate.

There are very few games to this point that are even current generation exclusive and really taking advantage of that fact.

Last gen we *needed* it because the systems were really outdated the day they released.

I mean, I'll probably buy one but it really feels unnecessary as it feels few games are taxing these systems.
 

JaseMath

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,394
Denver, CO
Developers have only begun offering current generation exclusive content (read: not cross-gen). If there's a mid-gen refresh, it'll only be because this current one is likely going to be longer than the norm.
 

GundamStyle

Banned
Jun 10, 2018
349
I think rich is missing the mark in one area, While 8k has no popularity at the moment and is not much of a selling point. 4k 120hz HDR on the other hand is selling telivisions and a console that could do 120fps in native 4k could be a big selling point.
 

Spork4000

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
8,528
No, massive waste of money and resources (R&D)

Just stop developing for last gen. The PS5 and Series X are more than enough. Console games will always prioritize graphics over framerate so a PS5+ or Series One X is just going to offer slightly better shadows and maybe 4 extra NPCs


Production, maybe, but not really a waste of R&D. Sony and Microsoft have the hardware engineers on staff and will throughout the entire generation. Personally I think one of the reasons that we got the PS4 Pro to begin with was to give those people something to do between console generations. Before that handhelds were a think that released mid gen, and before that generations were shorter and hardware was less standardized , so they were working on the new thing the second the old one was out.
 

RivalGT

Member
Dec 13, 2017
6,401
One big reason to want a pro system would be for better ray tracing, thats one aspect Nvidia is a few gens ahead of AMD. At this point it just depends how much AMD can improve on this aspect with RDNA3.

Because otherwise I think most will be happy with base systems, since most games do offer a performance or quality mode.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
It's not really that you don't need one or they haven't made games to take full advantage or stock is tight.

If they can make a cheaper or similar priced box that does things better, they are going to do it regardless because it saves them money with a bonus on top of performing better. Be efficient. I do however think there probably isn't a leap worth doing just yet that fits in a nice box though.
 

cooldawn

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,450
I don't think we need one. The generation hasn't even started yet considering cross-generational releases are still coming.

Raytracing is overrated too. I dislike the way games look with misaligned crystal clear reflections. Scenes look more fake rather then more natural majority of the time.

I much prefer we see what dedicated current generational software en masse looks like first before saying a Pro model is required.
 

KyngKee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
886
Jeez I just want developers to start making current gen only games. Which is delayed because ppl can't find consoles. So financially it makes more sense to make cross gen games still. Besides Horizon I don't think we've seen close to what these consoles can do and that game is cross gen so it still has more overhead…
 

dgrdsv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,886
I think rich is missing the mark in one area, While 8k has no popularity at the moment and is not much of a selling point. 4k 120hz HDR on the other hand is selling telivisions and a console that could do 120fps in native 4k could be a big selling point.
It is highly unlikely that we will get a 2X Zen 2 single thread CPU from AMD any time soon and it's even less likely that such CPU will be suitable for a console APU in price and power once it will arrive. You won't get 120 fps in 60 fps PS5 games otherwise.
 

TrojanAg

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,538
As long as cross-gen persists, I don't see any reason to release anything new.
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,447
There's maybe a handful of games that absolutely suck as a PS4 sku, and only a handful that the performance is absolutely dreadful on Series X and PS5. Therefore, no, devs are having a hard enough time supporting existing SKU spread with AAA games.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,038
Rich makes a good argument why is not happening, or not as fast and early as some hoped.

Plans are plans. And it's probably 3-4 years away.

Would I buy one? Depends, I'm happy for now.

Here's the thing: the PS4 hit in 2013. The pro was on shelves by 2016.

With the PS5 arriving on shelves in 2020- almost two years ago- you'd expect a mid gen console to arrive in 2023. 2024 at the latest.

3 or 4 years from now would put you at 2025-2026 before your "mid gen" system showed up. That's not a mid gen console at that point, it's your next gen replacement.

As hard a time as both manufacturers have had just getting base consoles on store shelves, an entirely new console by next year or even 2024 just doesn't seem realistic.
 

Piggus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,700
Oregon
Yes. They're needed, but with an emphasis on raytracing performance, not resolution. That's the one area where the new systems have fallen pretty flat compared to PC. Games that allow you to stack up the RT effects just look so much better than what we're getting on consoles. It's something you need to play and not just experience though static screenshots or some of the usual comparisons we see.
 

Iztok

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,138
Dunno. But I'd buy one if it means avoiding playing something at 30fps

This.

I'm not ever playing anything at 30 again, and if need be I'll stick to my PC, but I'd rather have a console capable.

Usually the line is "it's up to the developers" who might choose to target 30 - but that only applies to base consoles, midgen refreshes mean that games targeting 30 can go higher on Pro versions.
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,261
Here's the thing: the PS4 hit in 2013. The pro was on shelves by 2016.

With the PS5 arriving on shelves in 2020- almost two years ago- you'd expect a mid gen console to arrive in 2023. 2024 at the latest.

3 or 4 years from now would put you at 2025-2026 before your "mid gen" system showed up. That's not a mid gen console at that point, it's your next gen replacement.

As hard a time as both manufacturers have had just getting base consoles on store shelves, an entirely new console by next year or even 2024 just doesn't seem realistic.

That seemed to be his point in the video. That maybe console cycles as we know them have just ended. And that you just get new versions when it's feasible from a cost and power POV. Because right now you're talking higher costs and higher power when wanting more power. Node shrinks aren't giving you either for free anymore. Or maybe machine learning allows a real, traditional console upgrade years from now.

It's hard to argue with anything he really laid out.

Also, was Rich implying that Series S is using failed silicon from Series X? It never dawned on me this might be the case, but that's pretty ingenious if true. It definitely would allow Series X to be much cheaper to manufacture when you can get much better yields via a secondary product.

EDIT: Rewatched the video and I see what he was saying now.
 
Last edited:

Darkstorne

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,828
England
Yeah, absolutely.

Not today of course, but we're not mid-gen yet. As the PS5 and Series X get cheaper to produce, I can absolutely see the desire for a $500+ enhanced model being there alongside them in another two or three years. Especially if this is likely to be the longest gen we've ever had - in that situation I can see the PS5 and Series X becoming 1080p/30fps machines with a lot of games again, with the enhanced models being there for those that want the improved performance and visuals.
 

RivalGT

Member
Dec 13, 2017
6,401
That seemed to be his point in the video. That maybe console cycles as we know them have just ended. And that you just get new versions when it's feasible from a cost and power POV. Because right now you're talking higher costs and higher power when wanting more power. Node shrinks aren't giving you either for free anymore. Or maybe machine learning allows a real, traditional console upgrade years from now.

It's hard to argue with anything he really laid out.

Also, was Rich implying that Series S is using failed silicon from Series X? It never dawned on me this might be the case, but that's pretty ingenious if true. It definitely would allow Series X to be much cheaper to manufacture when you can get much better yields via a secondary product.
What part of the video was that? As far as I know the Series S and X use completely different SoC's.