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Fafalada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,066
That's the main topic but be sure to watch the end of the video... ;)
Btw if you guys are gonna do the 'double-scaling' conversation you could use a bit more research into the topic.
For one there was conflating different things - when CB or other methods do temporal upsample, that's mostly adding sample data, not introducing blur like an upscale would, so calling that a 'double upscale' is factually wrong, at least for purposes of image clarity of the downsample. As RDR appears to literally render at half the 2160p and then stretch+fill the gaps, their approach is more scaling than not, but trying to lump everything under that umbrella is disingenuous at best.

And for two - for games that do nothing fancy and just render a lower resolution - they will output at one of the 'system supported' resolutions. See the leaked docs for reference (https://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/neo_leak_4.jpg). You're not going to get those games upscale to 4k willy nilly unless there's some specific quality reasons for it(and in those cases those would probably outweigh scaling artifacts anyway), which would be quite rare for 1440p titles especially.
Which is not to say you don't get double-scaling at all - you will absolutely have situations when game is eg. dynamic res, so it upscales to nearest supported output res, and then there's a second scale to 1080p OR 4k (and that gives you double scale in both scenarios).
 
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Fastidioso

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
3,101
Btw if you guys are gonna do the 'double-scaling' conversation you could use a bit more research into the topic.
For one there was conflating different things - when CB or other methods do temporal upsample, that's mostly adding sample data, not introducing blur like an upscale would, so calling that a 'double upscale' is factually wrong, at least for purposes of image clarity of the downsample. As RDR appears to literally render at half the 2160p and then stretch+fill the gaps, their approach is more scaling than not, but trying to lump everything under that umbrella is disingenuous at best.

And for two - for games that do nothing fancy and just render a lower resolution - they will output at one of the 'system supported' resolutions. See the leaked docs for reference (https://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/neo_leak_4.jpg). You're not going to get those games upscale to 4k willy nilly unless there's some specific quality reasons for it(and in those cases those would probably outweigh scaling artifacts anyway), which would be quite rare for 1440p titles especially.
Which is not to say you don't get double-scaling at all - you will absolutely have situations when game is eg. dynamic res, so it upscales to nearest supported output res, and then there's a second scale to 1080p OR 4k (so you end up with double scale in both scenarios).
Quelle surprise. You can't take two or three games and say "gotcha". The fact it could happen in some games doesn't means downsampling statistically is fucked when is it forced. But they are not new to such approximate analysis.The RT just for the sound on ps5 is another one.
 

ClarkusDarkus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,724
Didn't see a mention for PSVR being greatly boosted by the Pro, Unless i can't read of course. Top tier gaming Journalism.
 
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exodus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,949
Call me paranoic but the subtle intention of such tech analysis smell of that to me.

What? They are putting a forward indisputable facts. The PS4 Pro is in fact not suited for a 1080p -> 4K jump. The GPU numbers simply don't work. Furthermore, PS4's scaling solution does not work the same in all games as it does on Xbox.

However, there is a silver lining: running PS4 Pro games at 1080 can sometimes result in the PS4 having the best performance out of all the systems.

You're the only one bringing console wars into this. Digital Foundry does not have an agenda.
 

Deleted member 82

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,626
Dark1x Alfred Chicken DF Retro episode when?

[EDIT] On a more serious note, a DF Retro about TMNT would be awesome, be it specifically about Turtles in Time or the series in general. I would, as the kids say, "smash that like button" so hard!
 

Fastidioso

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
3,101
What? They are putting a forward indisputable facts. The PS4 Pro is in fact not suited for a 1080p -> 4K jump. The GPU numbers simply don't work. Furthermore, PS4's scaling solution does not work the same in all games as it does on Xbox.

However, there is a silver lining: running PS4 Pro games at 1080 can sometimes result in the PS4 having the best performance out of all the systems.

You're the only one bringing console wars into this. Digital Foundry does not have an agenda.
Statistically most of the games runs at higher resolution than 1080p with better performance on Pro. Now try to claim is not enough good for a 4k setup it's kinda of ridiculous. As say the Pro is good just for 1080p output smell more of a console war hyperbole, nothing less. Said that, I never intended attribute such consideration to them. But you see why I'm against such kind of videos? Because obviously people like you feel legitimate to come to such conclusion just for similar video. That's why I always find their approach to such tech stuff really opinable.
 
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exodus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,949
Most of the games runs at higher resolution than 1080p with better performance on Pro. Your indisputable fact are hilarious. Said the Pro is good just for 1080p output as you try to imply, is merely a console war hyperbole, nothing less. Said that, I never intended attribute such phrase to them. But you see why Im against such videos? Because obviously people like you find legitimate to come such conclusion just for such video. That's why I always find their approach to such tech stuff really opinable.

Higher than 1080p does not equal 4K. A lot of compromises have to be made to hit 4K with PS4 Pro's GPU. This is due to the fact that the GPU is not 4x as powerful as the one in the original model.

Again, you're the only one bringing console wars into this. I own a PS4 Pro and I do not own any Xbox at all. The fact is simply that X1X is far more suited for the 4K jump than the PS4 Pro, and the evidence shows that. Console wars has nothing to do with it. I am capable at objectively looking at hardware without bringing my preference into the mix.
 

Atolm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,829
In the end the Pro was a half-assed effort. Not powerful enough for 4k, not enough older first party games got support, no 1440p output support...
 

Fastidioso

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
3,101
Higher than 1080p does not equal 4K. A lot of compromises have to be made to hit 4K with PS4 Pro's GPU. This is due to the fact that the GPU is not 4x as powerful as the one in the original model.

Again, you're the only one bringing console wars into this. I own a PS4 Pro and I do not own any Xbox at all. The fact is simply that X1X is far more suited for the 4K jump than the PS4 Pro, and the evidence shows that. Console wars has nothing to do with it. I am capable at objectively looking at hardware without bringing my preference into the mix.
I don't understand what really you are trying to argue here. It's you which mention the X hardware and it has nothing to do with the nature of the video. So a console is not suited for 4k setup because cant handle native 4k? That's really an ignorant thing to say. And it's not me which fuel console war but post like yours to spread nonsense around this tech stuff.
 

exodus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,949
In the end the Pro was a half-assed effort. Not powerful enough for 4k, not enough older first party games got support, no 1440p output support...

Not to mention some of the worst thermals Ive ever seen in a console. They definitely didn't prioritize properly for this system.
 

exodus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,949
Well thanks to God you are against the console war dude.

Why is it you are incapable of accepting criticism for your console of choice? My console gaming is done primarily on PS4 as it has the games I want to play, but I also realize that Sony delivered a system with flaws.

I would rather they address these flaws in the future than stick my head in the sand.
 

Fastidioso

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
3,101
Why is it you are incapable of accepting criticism for your console of choice? My console gaming is done primarily on PS4 as it has the games I want to play, but I also realize that Sony delivered a system with flaws.

I would rather they address these flaws in the future than stick my head in the sand.
That's not criticism what you did. Or you don't know how criticism work. With all respect.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,221
As a PSVR owner and "performance mode" aficionado, the PS4 Pro has definitely been my 1080p machine this gen. Wish the focus for Pro would have been 1080p60, unfortunately we need those 4K marketing screens
 

SeeingeyeDug

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,004
It's helpful for certain games. Hard switching the pro to display at 1080p turns No Man's Sky into a 60fps game. I also heard that Borderlands 3 will have a performance mode so hopefully also 60 FPS.

Boost mode also helped some games become more playable like Sleeping Dogs remaster. Just Cause 3 as well performed more like it should have on the pro.
 

Fafalada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,066
Wish the focus for Pro would have been 1080p60, unfortunately we need those 4K marketing screens
I was on your side early on(also coming from PSVR benefits perspective) but I kind of appreciate the 4k options since moving to a 4k screen. The coverage in games I play on a console is good enough that I prefer it to 1080p & performance most of the time, and it's also made me kind of neglect PC as a side-effect, because I currently only have a 1080p connection available to my living room.

I appreciate I'm probably not the most typical consumer as I really don't care for 95% of high-budget 3rd party output(they make for useful research material, but I can't justify investing leisure time into actually playing them), regardless of the platform.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,221
I was on your side early on(also coming from PSVR benefits perspective) but I kind of appreciate the 4k options since moving to a 4k screen. The coverage in games I play on a console is good enough that I prefer it to 1080p & performance most of the time, and it's also made me kind of neglect PC as a side-effect, because I currently only have a 1080p connection available to my living room.

I appreciate I'm probably not the most typical consumer as I really don't care for 95% of high-budget 3rd party output(they make for useful research material, but I can't justify investing leisure time into actually playing them), regardless of the platform.

Yea I understand why it ended up as it did, since the main gains were on the GPU side it's probably exponentially easier to just double the res and do checkerboarding, with the added marketing benefit that you wouldnt get as easily with 60fps. I do hope early next gen titles will set a good precedent going forward where we still see performance modes on games day 1, or at least the option to unlock framerate for future "boost mode" settings on PS5 Pro variant
 

s3ltz3r

Banned
Nov 12, 2017
1,149
In the end the Pro was a half-assed effort. Not powerful enough for 4k, not enough older first party games got support, no 1440p output support...

Hahaha...oh you. What's your console of choice?

Personally, the Pro is a great choice for a step above the standard PS. Enough power boost to justify the price difference.

Want more 3rd party power boost? Just get an XBX, but lose the great Sony 1st party lineup. (Edit)
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
Btw if you guys are gonna do the 'double-scaling' conversation you could use a bit more research into the topic.
For one there was conflating different things - when CB or other methods do temporal upsample, that's mostly adding sample data, not introducing blur like an upscale would, so calling that a 'double upscale' is factually wrong, at least for purposes of image clarity of the downsample. As RDR appears to literally render at half the 2160p and then stretch+fill the gaps, their approach is more scaling than not, but trying to lump everything under that umbrella is disingenuous at best.

And for two - for games that do nothing fancy and just render a lower resolution - they will output at one of the 'system supported' resolutions. See the leaked docs for reference (https://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/neo_leak_4.jpg). You're not going to get those games upscale to 4k willy nilly unless there's some specific quality reasons for it(and in those cases those would probably outweigh scaling artifacts anyway), which would be quite rare for 1440p titles especially.
Which is not to say you don't get double-scaling at all - you will absolutely have situations when game is eg. dynamic res, so it upscales to nearest supported output res, and then there's a second scale to 1080p OR 4k (and that gives you double scale in both scenarios).
Oh, no doubt. This was an off the cuff chat and I had forgotten about this aspect until it was brought up.
 

Ascenion

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,099
Mecklenburg-Strelitz
Hahaha...oh you. What's your console of choice?

Personally, the Pro is a great choice for a step above the standard PS. Enough power boost to justify the price difference.

Want more 3rd party power boost? Just get an XBX, but lose the great Sony 1st party lineup. (Edit)

The Pro is absolutely half assed. It's loud, underpowered by 2016 standards, restricted by price yet supposedly a premium offering and its missing a 4K BD player. It should've been $500 and it should've been 5.2TF or whatever the second option was. Sure it makes PS exclusives look fantastic but if I'd gone put a bought a 4K set for it I'd be disappointed at just how much it doesn't utilize that. It's a 1440p machine at best.
 

BGA

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,575
PS4 Pro is good for 1080p gaming. I just wish it was a better designed system in terms of thermal and cooling. I hope Sony improves this for PS5.
 

Atolm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,829
Hahaha...oh you. What's your console of choice?

Personally, the Pro is a great choice for a step above the standard PS. Enough power boost to justify the price difference.

Want more 3rd party power boost? Just get an XBX, but lose the great Sony 1st party lineup. (Edit)

I have them all or rather, I had them until I sold the three a few weeks ago. All have advantages and flaws. For example XBX supports 1440p (my res) but it's slow as fuck for everything OS related and does sheaningans like the need to use Edge to edit your CC info.

So get me out of your wars please.
 

chandoog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,071
I want to make an informal poll for users gaming on 1080p TV's.

How many of you guys keep the system level down-sampling on and how many keep it off ?
 

OrdinaryPrime

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
The Pro is absolutely half assed. It's loud, underpowered by 2016 standards, restricted by price yet supposedly a premium offering and its missing a 4K BD player. It should've been $500 and it should've been 5.2TF or whatever the second option was. Sure it makes PS exclusives look fantastic but if I'd gone put a bought a 4K set for it I'd be disappointed at just how much it doesn't utilize that. It's a 1440p machine at best.

The Pro doesn't support 1440p unless you're talking about internal resolutions.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,427
Silicon Valley
Good video - enjoying this kind of dialog driven chats about the games. Since I like to stream games sometimes, I end up trading 4K HDR in certain titles for better performance and 1080p resolution to capture the game via my AverMedia device. Days Gone was a definitely noticeable improvement, considering how the open world chugs when you get all the upgrades.

That's not criticism what you did. Or you don't know how criticism work. With all respect.
Dude you need to stop. Calling out the terrible thermals that many people have with their Pro (it was literally called a lottery to get a quiet PS4 Pro) is legitimate criticism.

You're the most console-war-toting poster in this thread right now.
 

Fastidioso

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
3,101
Good video - enjoying this kind of dialog driven chats about the games. Since I like to stream games sometimes, I end up trading 4K HDR in certain titles for better performance and 1080p resolution to capture the game via my AverMedia device. Days Gone was a definitely noticeable improvement, considering how the open world chugs when you get all the upgrades.


Dude you need to stop. Calling out the terrible thermals that many people have with their Pro (it was literally called a lottery to get a quiet PS4 Pro) is legitimate criticism.

You're the most console-war-toting poster in this thread right now.
Call a console half asset, only good for 1080p, the worst thermal past of the history, most of first parties arent supported, now the use of such narrative it's considered legitim criticism and it's me a console warrior? Dude...there are other manner to express criticism in this world.
 

Andromeda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,846
When they talk about the games that run the best on Pro, I find it quite incredible that they didn't talk about RDR2. As the Pro game is the best performing version at 1080p. The game is criticized in the 4K mode on Pro, and rightly so as the image quality is shit in that mode.

But at 1080p, It's the best way to play the game if you want a stable framerate. It's like DF live in a parallel Universe where they think the XBX game is the best performing version.
 

HBK

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,980
Does Xbox One X do the same up-res to 4k before downsampling native 1440p max games like PS4 Pro?
No. But you have no control over what the console does whatsoever. Some games give you options, but there's no system-level setting to, say, force all games in 1080p native if it's summer without AC and you'd gladly take the hit in IQ for a quieter machine. The X, while virtually silent in a well cooled environment, can be noisy when howling its 6TF, especially in a not-so-cool room (such as, you know, in summer, without AC).

As for the topic at hand, the console seems to be good hardware processing power-wise, so yeah it's probably worth buying, if only for performance gains. It's a bit disappointing that the cooling solution seems a bit cheap though (it probably does its cooling job very well, but many people do complain about the noise).
 

Afrikan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
16,986
The Pro's launch price was $399 no? Same price as the launch price of the Base PS4.

The Pro allowed you to take advantage of your 4K TV. Had/has many great looking exclusives that takes advantage of how the console is designed, to run at various resolutions above 1080p....like PC Gamer's "sweat spot" of 1440p...checkerboarding and others in 4k Native.

For a system that has all those benefits, to cost the same price as the launch price of the previous version.....that's great isn't it? $399. For 1080p gaming and resolutions above that. Don't understand this "half ass, underpowered" talk.
 

Fastidioso

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
3,101
When they talk about the games that run the best on Pro, I find it quite incredible that they didn't talk about RDR2. As the Pro game is the best performing version at 1080p. The game is criticized in the 4K mode on Pro, and rightly so as the image quality is shit in that mode.

But at 1080p, It's the best way to play the game if you want a stable framerate. It's like DF live in a parallel Universe where they think the XBX game is the best performing version.
Psst. This article just taste the ground for their next piece: X the perfect console for 4k TV setup. My bet.
 

Marble

Banned
Nov 27, 2017
3,819
Supersampling makes my already obnoxiously loud Pro run even louder so I turned it off. Pro was a mistake. Or at least my purchase of it was, which is weird given how good the base PS4 was to me. PS4 is just all around disappointing imo. It could have, and should have, been so much more.

My Pro is a jet engine piece of shit, I actually wish I could turn off supersampling in the games that force it on the Pro, just to play without the insane noise coming from the ineptly engineered PS4 Pro.

Now I often just play games on my old PS4 Amateur to have a good experience. Currently playing DQXI and it forces supersampling on the Pro resulting in too much noise from the shitty hardware. Playing on my old PS4 is whisper quiet, so I'll live with the drop in image quality.

The Pro is a huge misfire and whoever incompetently designed the cooling solution shouldn't be allowed near console engineering ever again.

The design is just fine. The thermal paste/pads though.. You should consider replacing both. I did it a few weeks back (I am not technical whatsoever) and it does wonders. It's a shame that it's necessary though.
 

Serious Sam

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,354
In the end the Pro was a half-assed effort. Not powerful enough for 4k, not enough older first party games got support, no 1440p output support...
Ahh, nothing like the good old platform bashing based on misinformation and unrealistic expectations.

How dare they release a console in 2016 for $399 and not have a native 4K rendering across the board?!?!

And here I am in 2019, comfortably (almost) playing games in 4K native at 50ish FPS on my $1200 RTX 2080Ti. It's so simple!
 

Deleted member 18161

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,805
I wonder how many current gen games would run at 1080/60 on the Pro (or X) if you just replaced the Jaguar CPU with one of the new lower powered Zen CPU's.

Will never happen but would be fascinating to see.

Great video as always.
 

Zonal Hertz

Banned
Jun 13, 2018
1,079
I'm in the awkward position now of using my Pro with a very good asus 1440p monitor. And honestly I have no clue what I should be doing to get the best image. To be honest its a joke the pro doesnt support 1440p as I have no interest in a 27inch 4k monitor.
 

Iztok

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,138
Maybe if it wasn't so loud. I'll definitely be paying more attention to noise levels next gen and choose my consoles accordingly.
 

dgrdsv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,880
I went from an OG PS4 to PS4 Pro and I play on a 1080p TV. All in all this felt like a completely pointless upgrade as I haven't gotten any noticeable gains in either quality or performance. I play 1st party titles only on PS4 though.
 

Fafalada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,066
What do you suppose caused the artifacts in the video?
Were there specific artifacts? 1440p downsampled to 1080p will blur the UI edges unless you apply a sharpening filter - like Dark1x suggested - or try to be more clever like contrast/contour detection, but then we're really not talking about just supersampling anymore.

Anyway I suggested more investigation would be in order if they wanted seriously discuss the topic.
 

Marble

Banned
Nov 27, 2017
3,819
I went from an OG PS4 to PS4 Pro and I play on a 1080p TV. All in all this felt like a completely pointless upgrade as I haven't gotten any noticeable gains in either quality or performance. I play 1st party titles only on PS4 though.

God of War: performance mode with uncapped frame rate

Shadow of the Colossus: performance mode at 60fps

And if I'm not mistaking: WipeOut: 60fps on Pro.