-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Digital Foundry: Detroit Become Human PC - Native 4K vs Checkerboard Rendering on PS4 Pro - Image Quality Analysis
- Thread starter chandoog
- Start date
Just goes to show the magic that is DLSS 2.0. Checkerboarding was the result of a lot of work from Sony, as have been other recontruciton techniques. DLSS 2.0 needs to be standard in every game on PC.
I don't see any aliasing in Days Gone sitting about 3,5m from my 65" TV. Sure, different game but I am all for cbr or DLSS instead of native 4k (or having the option on consoles).
If IQ doesn't bother you, you're free to ignore the thread. And possibly DF videos?
Not sure that's a roasting on checkerboard. My take from that was that it's not as good as native 4k, but allows you to get up to 1800 quality for only the rendercost of 1527, leaving more power for better effects.
In any case, having to pause and zoom to find the differences (for most people) in most cases (apart from maybe the edges of transparent items) makes it all a bit moot.
In any case, having to pause and zoom to find the differences (for most people) in most cases (apart from maybe the edges of transparent items) makes it all a bit moot.
I was talking about Detroid in this case, I'm all for jaggy-less games but the examples they showed in that video was all about tiny details you won't notice while playing. Still interesting video though and good for explaining the differences.
Didn't seem like a roast to me. That seems a little hyperbolic. I don't think anyone could walk away from this analysis unimpressed with what checkerboarding has been able to do for the Pro. On the other hand, when you can see them side by side, it's clear that native resolutions beat out upscaling/checkerboarding every time in terms of IQ.
Great video as always!
Great video as always!
That's a bit sensationalist and reductionalist. There's a world of difference between nit picking over stuff the vast majority wouldn't be able to see unless a) they were looking for it and b) had to pause the game and notable frame rate differences and LOD popin.
I suspect resolution fidelity will become a non-issue soon and that LOD and frame rate performance will become the stuff that matters. DF can be immensely useful with that.
My problem with CB rendering is how it falls apart in motion - even more noticeable at 30fps and on a high response screen like OLED. You can tell the resolution drops as soon as you move the camera.
Hopefully we'll see the use of AI upscaling techniques like DLSS being used on consoles next-gen.
Hopefully we'll see the use of AI upscaling techniques like DLSS being used on consoles next-gen.
Yeah I would not say it is a negative outcome at all. It looks reasonably good, just not 4K good. It makes way too much sense to use it if your game pipeline supports it easily and you want to push for higher effects at a lessened cost. It won't be as cheap as 1527p (the Checkerboard resolve itself costs more than the native resolution), but it should not be dramatically more expensive.
I wish more games supported it on PC as an option. I also hope devs on next gen consoles do not go for native 4K if they can and instead do reconstruction.
It will depend on the implementation of course, but in this game it was not really that bad at all and did not break down too often into the saw tooth look. This one was stabler than others I have seen.
Resolution drops on LCD/OLED panels as soon as camera moves anyway - 4k panels actually made that issue worse than before, for me at least :/
BFI helps with 60+ FPS games, but it's not a substitute for proper low-persistence the way it currently works.
DLSS is also cheaper as it can scale from something as low as 1080p to 4k. Which means it only need to render 1 1080p image where checkerboard 4k need 2 1080p image to reconstruct. DLSS has less artifacts it seems. Doesn't look like AMD has the same solution for DLSS for next gen consoles unfortunately. While Ms has some ML support but no dedicated hw so that takes a chuck out of performance of the hardware.
You're in a tech thread complaining about people focusing on the tech. You're essentially thread whining.
Oh, I'm sorry if it came over that way! I wasn't complaining in the slightest. I find the video's really interesting myself and I wouldn't be here if I had something to complain about.
Regardless, you can definitely see the resolution drop in HZD when you pan the camera on an OLED. A very different experience to panning the camera in a native 4k game on the same display. Like for like at 30fps. But 120fps is the way to go with OLED, looks incredible and motion blur is barely noticeable compared to 60fps, and none of the flickering or dimmed image of 60fps + BFI. But then you're definitely going to need DLSS 2.0 or something similar to get to those framerates with next gen consoles, as you can then AI upscale from 1080p.
It says it all when the difference is so slight between checkerboarded 2160p and native 2160p, despite there being a difference of four million pixels, i.e. twice the resolution. Is it twice the improvement? Fuck no. And anyone that argues differently is insane.
Developers next-gen really need to start targeting higher framerates with reconstructed resolutions.
Developers next-gen really need to start targeting higher framerates with reconstructed resolutions.
My body already ready for DLSS 6.0. Nvidia got that AI farm going for them & it's nice to see it being put to good use for things I enjoy. Also very impressed with checkerboarded results vs native; fuck a native res when you can get damn close utilizing a fraction of the juice needed. The future of graphics on both PC and consoles looking mighty sexy!
I do a lot. I play on a 4K TV, and I see all of that. IQ matters to me.
Wow, I did not expect the checkerboarded PS4 Pro version to come this close to ultra settings on PC in native 4K. O: Without zooming in 200% or 300% they look very close.
As in checkerboarding got roasted? We must've watched a different video. You did watch it before your comment though, right?
As in checkerboarding got roasted? We must've watched a different video. You did watch it before your comment though, right?
Last edited:
OP
OP
I think after the first batch of native 4K games, we might start seeing developers opt for reconstruction solutions on the PS5/XBX as well so they can push better effects, more on-screen things while maintaining the perceived 4K resolution.
XBSX has VRS going for it but I don't think Sony has commented on it in an official capacity so we might see more reconstruction based solutions there.
Honestly I wouldn't have noticed most of those without zooming in even with them side by side, much less if it was in motion.
DLSS is proprietary though. We need open standards. Something platform-agnostic and API wide.
It doesn't even need to be reconstructed. AMD's content aware sharpening works pretty nicely to sharpen details at a sub-4K resolution. I expect that to be supported on next gen consoles. Combined with other techniques it should give very good results.
I agree that chasing native 4K is a fool's errand when something like DLSS 2.0 or even checkerboard rendering can deliver results that are quite close. Having played around with different resolutions on PC, I find that as long as you are above 1440p it gets harder and harder to see the difference compared to native 4K. 1080p to 1440p is a much more noticeable jump.
I can't wait until I can put a large 8K screen on my desk and use DLSS to upscale from whatever to the native resolution without performance issues. 8K is pretty useless for everything but the very largest TVs but on the deskto you can't put a larger 4K display close up without seeing pixels due to the low pixels per inch for its size. 8K would solve that nicely.
Yep the one in the OP like everyone else... and DLSS really showed it up, let alone native 4K.
I think there needs to be a discussion on motion resolutions in the future. I've been replaying the last of us, toggling between 4k30 and 1800p60. I think at some point whatever detail you gain from higher resolution gets lost as soon as you move the camera. In this case, 1800p looked sharper than 4K. So I wonder where the equilibrium is, maybe 1600p or 1400p?
I'm assuming you posted this before watching the video, because it's not a "roast" of checkboard rendering in any way
The problem is developers are using reconstruction and.. still targeting 30fps.
The real solution is AI upscaling. DLSS 2.0 going from 1080p to 4k looks even better than cb4k. And barely any performance toll compared to native 1080p. If devs only had to target 1080p like that then that would definitely provide the opportunity to put out most games at 60fps next gen. But we're still yet to see how well this can be achieved without tensor cores, as the upscaling would need to happen in the CUs with the AMD solution.
I'm really looking forward to seeing how it's implemented in Decima engine. Both Horizon and Death Stranding are really sharp looking games.
Every DLSS example was better though?
Videos there for everyone to watch and form their own take on, it made me more excited for the PC version and DLSS. 🤷🏼♂️
Considering the kind of TAA and post processing games use these days, even native 4K has a soft look and how soft it is depends from game to game. A game like Control at native 4K probably has a far softer look than a game like say Destiny 2 with CBR. So in the end while CBR 4K vs native 4K in the same game may have some differences, it's not that much of a difference especially at TV playing distance.
More advanced form of reconstruction like DLSS are a no brainer and should be implemented if possible over native 4K.
You actually see it in many games, the most obvious one I can recall is BFV (I played the PC ver so talking about that) wherein when you move the trees start looking thinner and more aliased. But this is something basically apparent to some degree in most games with TAA.
More advanced form of reconstruction like DLSS are a no brainer and should be implemented if possible over native 4K.
What you are describing may be more to do with the TAA than CBR.
You actually see it in many games, the most obvious one I can recall is BFV (I played the PC ver so talking about that) wherein when you move the trees start looking thinner and more aliased. But this is something basically apparent to some degree in most games with TAA.
Last edited:
I think you watched the wrong video. I don't think there were any DLSS examples in this video
You are literally the only one who thinks checkerboarding was roasted here, lol.
Quit the obvious platform warring.
He totally didn't watch the video before his comment.
Video was on YouTube for about 20 minutes before this thIs thread, hit the bell icon!
Checkerboard rendering is a first generation technique. For PS5/XSX I expect folks to start using second generation techniques and it will get to the point where you won't be able to count pixels, just like the UE5 demo. Pushing for Native 4K will be waste of time/energy at that point.
Agreed. I want reconstruction to be the story of next gen. These techniques will only get better and better to the point where there will be no effective downside to using them.
OP
OP
Reminder that Watch Dogs 2 has a sort of CB rendering option on the PC and it is absolutely fantastic. Much better than their own earlier implementation in one of the Rainbow Six games IIRD. Let's my low-end gaming laptop run the game at high resolutions like 1620p and above.
Checkerboarding should absolutely be the option devs go for 100% of the time, if it's a choice between native 4K and solid frame rate. If it takes a freeze frame and multiple times zoom to see a degradation in quality, it's more than fine.
Not at all the takeaway for me. Really showed off the benefits of checkerboarding and how powerful it can be as a reconstruction technique.
There were no DLSS examples at all.
OP
OP
I think [redacted] accidentally clicked on a different link lol, at least the first of the video is Alex praising CB rendering for retaining more detail than a similar native resolution (1572p) and resolving things like how a higher resolution would.
The second half is a straight comparison with native 4K which of course will look better, but how CB, in this example, looks comparable to native 1800p Ultra and how even he (Alex) would love to use CB rendering to free up resources.
That's a mild ass roast if I've ever seen one.
The second half is a straight comparison with native 4K which of course will look better, but how CB, in this example, looks comparable to native 1800p Ultra and how even he (Alex) would love to use CB rendering to free up resources.
That's a mild ass roast if I've ever seen one.