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badabeezy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
195
The 16% performance delta is in line with what we know from a raw specs comparison. What I am interested in is the future DLSS "like" solution between PS5 and XSX. 16% isn't a huge delta but if you layer on a more efficient upscaling solution it could be meaningful. What will DirectML be? And what will be Sony's solution?
 

Ushay

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,351
Interesting results, I do wonder if they should have done a 'best of both worlds' mode with a middle ground in resolution and RT.

The 16% performance delta is in line with what we know from a raw specs comparison. What I am interested in is the future DLSS "like" solution between PS5 and XSX. 16% isn't a huge delta but if you layer on a more efficient upscaling solution it could be meaningful. What will DirectML be? And what will be Sony's solution?

Great question, I hope a machine learning solution comes later this year. Wasn't AMD architecture lacking actual cores for this?
 

Bulby

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,038
Berlin
Which should never be the priority of any developer imo..VRR is a crutch for inconsistent performance. If a Dev is doing their job well it should not need VRR at all.

But if the dev gives the player a choice of 30 Graphics, 60 performance and then an extra Graphics but unlocked mode. Everyone wins and VRR owners can decide if its worth it for them.
 

Xater

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,907
Germany
Fascinating. Make me wonder if a performance RT mode would be possible at a resolution that is low enough.

Still kinda sucks though that just at the start of the generations people already need to make performance comprimises like this. Ray tracing is still in it infancy in way though. Maybe next or with a mid-gen refresh 60fps with RT at a good resolution will be a thing.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
the 2060S being about on par with consoles with RT still ring true here when you take into account that consoles are lower settings than possible. the AMD cards is weird though. what the heck
 

Mecha

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,479
Honduras
Just to put it out there, the one scene that is in the 30s is the only scene that was in the 30s on XSX. The Corridor of Doom is not representative of the majority load that the game experience. So VRR would not fix the Corridor of Doom on either console (which is so stupidly expensive on every platform), but on XSX, VRR would actually offer a meaningful improvement over the 30 fps lock I feel. XSX spends a lot of scenes in 50s.
I'm sure you have more insight than us, but I wonder if mid combat the game will still hold over 50 fps, is it possible to determine that with the photo mode solution?
 

Dancrane212

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,962
A silly aside, but hearing that Quantum Break soundtrack in the video makes me pine for a 60fps update whenever the Xbox BC program starts rolling those out.
 

Belvedere

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,684
Man I love stuff like this. I have to say the results are both expected and unexpected though. The XSX advantage is in line with its GPU strengths, but makes its disadvantages a bit more baffling. Why isn't that advantage seen during the gameplay stress point scenarios where the XSX framerate seems to suffer slightly more on average than PS5? The stuttering issue also as speculated by DF in the past with other titles (AC: Valhalla IIRC?) also doesn't appear linked to performance, but maybe something more like I/O or an issue with the XDK?

I wonder if VGTech has posted an analysis as the average (gameplay) framerate statistics would be interesting to see here.
 

digitalrelic

Weight Loss Champion 2018: Biggest Change
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,124
By the time VRR is something devs care and regular consumers start to adopt, we'll probably have a mid gen refresh already. Today VRR support is only for dare I say less than 3% of the consumers on consoles.
Which should never be the priority of any developer imo..VRR is a crutch for inconsistent performance. If a Dev is doing their job well it should not need VRR at all.
VRR is going to be integral to gaming experiences in the future. It'll be many years, but that's why I said "down the line". VRR makes 50-60fps feel the same as a locked 60fps. VRR makes 90-120fps feel like a locked 120fps. It's a gamechanger.

But in the meantime, just having an "unlocked framerate" option, or something along those lines for consumers that DO have VRR displays (such as myself), that'd be really nice to see, and I'd use the option all the time on my Series X (and eventually on my PS5 as well when it's updated to support VRR).
 
Mar 11, 2019
549
Was it not already known that RT scales very well with number of GPU CU. I think it was expected that especially when RT is involved that the differences between PS5 and XSX can be bigger in favor of XSX then when RT is turned off.
 

Deusmico

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,254
Man I love stuff like this. I have to say the results are both expected and unexpected though. The XSX advantage is in line with its GPU strengths, but makes its disadvantages a bit more baffling. Why isn't that advantage seen during the gameplay stress point scenarios where the XSX framerate seems to suffer slightly more on average than PS5? The stuttering issue also as speculated by DF in the past with other titles (AC: Valhalla IIRC?) also doesn't appear linked to performance, but maybe something more like I/O or an issue with the XDK?

I wonder if VGTech has posted an analysis as the average (gameplay) framerate statistics would be interesting to see here.

also note that this shows that ps5 is not 8tfs lol

Was it not already known that RT scales very well with number of GPU CU. I think it was expected that especially when RT is involved that the differences between PS5 and XSX can be bigger in favor of XSX then when RT is turned off.

yes, this is the difference with a bench that has a lot of xsx advantages, standing still in a raytraced scene. makes sense of what we saw in real world gaming performance
 
Last edited:

badabeezy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
195
Great question, I hope a machine learning solution comes later this year. Wasn't AMD architecture lacking actual cores for this?
I believe AMD doesn't have core likes the NVIDIA tensor cores, but my understanding is that basically all you need is a chip that can do lower integer calcs faster for machine learning tasks. XSX has a dedicated processor for this but it would be no where near as efficient as Tensor cores and DLSS. Both AMD and Microsoft has shown a previous investment in machine learning upscaling, so my hope as a XSX owner is that while DLSS can take something like 1080p or lower and make it 4K, the XSX could take ~1440p and make it 4K. Still would make a huge difference from what we have now on consoles. A couple years from now looking at all the tech in these consoles I would hope a graphical "showcase" game could do internally rendered 1440p at 4K with upscaling, 60fps with dips handled by VRR, and select RT.
 

space_nut

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,306
NJ
I wonder with the extra head space on XSX remedy could've enabled RT GI it's about 12% increase in power needed
 

Deleted member 46804

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 17, 2018
4,129
Seems like they could push the settings higher on the SX. I'm guessing a few of those low settings could get pushed to medium or the SX could get more RT effects.
 

pswii60

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,673
The Milky Way
VRR wouldn't fix this when the game drops to just over 30 fps in some scenes. So no wonder Remedy decided to not offer an unlocked fps mode for Xbox. While the difference is not marginal, this great analysis done by DF shows that in practice (actual gameplay) that difference is less meaningful.
VRR would be fine at 120hz output using frame doubling. ie 30=60 so still above the 40hz lower VRR limit.
 
Feb 1, 2018
5,241
Europe
Some of these 30% differences are kinda interesting, that is quite a lot. I wonder what the reasons are. Some substantial hardware differences or some software issues?
 

Bulby

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,038
Berlin
Control would be a great candidate for VRS aswell. Theres a lot of heavily contrasted areas where detail doesnt need to be fully resolved.
 

Team_Feisar

Member
Jan 16, 2018
5,354
Some of these 30% differences are kinda interesting, that is quite a lot. I wonder what the reasons are. Some substantial hardware differences or some software issues?

My guess would be that the Game was ported by a small team without too much optmization for the respective machines. The Engine is very ressource-hungry as is and i would think this accentuates the raw-power-advantage of the XSX even more.
I guess we won´t get a clear picture of how the two consoles stack up until we have left the era of upgraded Games that were developed primarily for last-gen-systems (or PC specifically). I don´t think the difference will be very noticeable in-game this gen when everything is said and done.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,341
Seattle
Interesting; thing is.. AI and other CPU-bound aspects are disabled during photo mode.

So.. it suggests that at least for this game, since XSX has drops during "in-game", there is a CPU bottleneck.
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
This video shows the consoles have the overhead to do a 1080p/60 FPS RTS mode if Remedy puts it in with optimizations.





I don't think this is true in this case.

Going by the video, the XSX has an advantage of 3% to 11% to 20% depending on a scene.

aukgccg.png
It doesn't work like that. You can't just take outlier examples. The same way we can't reference times when the difference between them was just ONE frame.

The important thing is the average. And it averages out to about a 16% advantage for the XSX. Which is pretty bang on with what a lot of us said the difference would (and should be).

And together refer to that point, I for one said that it would either be a case of 12 - 20% better framerate if the resolution is fixed for the XSX, or t XSX or staying at the peak set resolution between the two 12-20% more of the time if framerate is fixed and DRS is being used.

From the hardware in these two consoles, this is exactly what people should expect to see, its only weird when you see situations where the pS5 outperforms the XSX. In those cases, I would say it has very little to do with the hardware and more to do with the tools/SDK.
 

Pancracio17

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
18,786
It sounds like it wasn't a case of it being impossible, just amount of manpower on this project. Adding a 1080/60 RT mode won't do much in the way of selling more copies of the game, I can't imagine why they'd justify spending another couple months of person hours pushing it out.
Meh I feel like it would result in more sales. People are buying the game again for better performance, the better it is, the more interested they are. Its why the definitive edition even exists after all.
 
Feb 1, 2018
5,241
Europe
My guess would be that the Game was ported by a small team without too much optmization for the respective machines. The Engine is very ressource-hungry as is and i would think this accentuates the raw-power-advantage of the XSX even more.
I guess we won´t get a clear picture of how the two consoles stack up until we have left the era of upgraded Games that were developed primarily for last-gen-systems (or PC specifically). I don´t think the difference will be very noticeable in-game this gen when everything is said and done.
TBH i expect it to be the opposite, a bigger team will be able to squeeze out a lot more out of more powerful hardware. That is why it would be nice to know why the XSX is doing 30% better here. Like somebody said above, the game is probably CPU limited.
 

Laver

Banned
Mar 30, 2018
2,654
And together refer to that point, I for one said that it would either be a case of 12 - 20% better framerate if the resolution is fixed for the XSX, or t XSX or staying at the peak set resolution between the two 12-20% more of the time if framerate is fixed and DRS is being used.
Or XSX could have slightly higher settings here and there when the resolution and framerate are capped.
 

formatnone

Member
Oct 31, 2017
270
Lithuania
correct me if i'm wrong, but in photo mode CPU is doing almost nothing right? I think if we had unlocked framerate on gameplay, we would see way les of difference because PS5 is clocked higher?
 

Laver

Banned
Mar 30, 2018
2,654
correct me if i'm wrong, but in photo mode CPU is doing almost nothing right? I think if we had unlocked framerate on gameplay, we would see way les of difference because PS5 is clocked higher?
PS5's CPU is clocked lower (3.5 vs 3.6GHz). If the game is CPU bound then yes, the difference would likely be lower.
 

VanWinkle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,095
Love this video. Like dictator said, very much academic, but it's great that this uncapped framerate exists for nerdy people like us.

So about an average 6-7fps advantage on a 60fps framerate on Series X. That's actually very much in line with the raw GPU advantage between 10.2tf and 12tf. It's not enough to actually have different framerate targets on the two systems, nor enough to have any notable resolution differences, but it can theoretically help when it comes to preventing drops below targets (though we haven't yet seen that difference manifest in gameplay scenarios). I think, in order to bring up that this difference in GPU power is as relatively small as we thought it would be since the PS5 specs were revealed, I should in fairness also note that the SSD difference (at least thus far) is much SMALLER than I thought it would be. The very much real raw 2x raw speed advantage really does not have any noticeable benefits on multiplatform titles at all, and I thought it would be a case of a game like Control loading in, say, 5 seconds on PS5 compared to 10 seconds on Series X. That was pretty ignorant of me.
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
Or XSX could have slightly higher settings here and there when the resolution and framerate are capped.
That too... but I omit that because that could really go both ways. But it's possible.

An argument can also be made that the advantages both machines have over each other in situations like these cancel out. But we are talking about things we couldn't possibly know. That would be saying, "ok, so the PS5 saves 1ms in render time because its processing geometry faster but then the XSX saves 1ms in render time because its filtering/mapping textures faster". But how can we know that?

This is the closest thing to a benchmark we have. Both consoles running at the exact same settings and the exact same locked resolution. Then we just look at the framerate.
 

HonestAbe

Member
May 19, 2020
1,905
I hope AMD can get a DLSS like feature patched into these machines sooner rather than later if it means we could get 60FPS ray traced games.

Because as others have said, it's not like anything is going on game logic wise during photo mode...so it's not like we're close.

You wont get a patch into these machines for anything close to DLSS since it's hardware based. However, we know Xbox will have/has something done on the software/API side called Direct ML. They've shown samples but it was using tensor cores to help, I think. We don't have anything concrete on what the equivalent is for the PS5, if anything, yet.
 

Pancracio17

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
18,786
Love this video. Like dictator said, very much academic, but it's great that this uncapped framerate exists for nerdy people like us.

So about an average 6-7fps advantage on a 60fps framerate on Series X. That's actually very much in line with the raw GPU advantage between 10.2tf and 12tf. It's not enough to actually have different framerate targets on the two systems, nor enough to have any notable resolution differences, but it can theoretically help when it comes to preventing drops below targets (though we haven't yet seen that difference manifest in gameplay scenarios). I think, in order to bring up that this difference in GPU power is as relatively small as we thought it would be since the PS5 specs were revealed, I should in fairness also note that the SSD difference (at least thus far) is much SMALLER than I thought it would be. The very much real raw 2x raw speed advantage really does not have any noticeable benefits on multiplatform titles at all, and I thought it would be a case of a game like Control loading in, say, 5 seconds on PS5 compared to 10 seconds on Series X. That was pretty ignorant of me.
I think Control doesnt load faster on PS5 because the file size is smaller instead. I would think thats probably due to the SSD, so maybe instead of faster loading they went with lower file size.
 

VanWinkle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,095
I think Control doesnt load faster on PS5 because the file size is smaller instead. I would think thats probably due to the SSD, so maybe instead of faster loading they went with lower file size.
I have a hard time believing it's due to the SSD, but rather maybe better/more mature compression methods, but the huge difference in file sizes fascinates me. I'd love to know if other games have a difference in size.
 

plagiarize

It's not a loop. It's a spiral.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,559
Cape Cod, MA
Academic as they say, but still very interesting. Seems like the extra CUs are good for RT performance, but the higher clock speeds on PS5 make it more than competitive in other scenarios. Perhaps not *surprising* but still interesting.
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
Love this video. Like dictator said, very much academic, but it's great that this uncapped framerate exists for nerdy people like us.

So about an average 6-7fps advantage on a 60fps framerate on Series X. That's actually very much in line with the raw GPU advantage between 10.2tf and 12tf. It's not enough to actually have different framerate targets on the two systems, nor enough to have any notable resolution differences, but it can theoretically help when it comes to preventing drops below targets (though we haven't yet seen that difference manifest in gameplay scenarios). I think, in order to bring up that this difference in GPU power is as relatively small as we thought it would be since the PS5 specs were revealed, I should in fairness also note that the SSD difference (at least thus far) is much SMALLER than I thought it would be. The very much real raw 2x raw speed advantage really does not have any noticeable benefits on multiplatform titles at all, and I thought it would be a case of a game like Control loading in, say, 5 seconds on PS5 compared to 10 seconds on Series X. That was pretty ignorant of me.
Then again, the PS5 version of the game is about 45% smaller in size than the XSX version.

I do agree on the loading thing though, I don't understand what is happening there. There simply is absolutely no reason that the PS5 and the XSX should load a game in the exact same amount of time. Like NONE. Absolutely none. There I no technical basis for it to even remotely occur. Even if everything that had to the with IO processing on the PS5 was 30% slower than the XSX, from just raw IO transfer throughput the PS5 should still end up loading faster.
 

dlauv

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,513
Love this video. Like dictator said, very much academic, but it's great that this uncapped framerate exists for nerdy people like us.

So about an average 6-7fps advantage on a 60fps framerate on Series X. That's actually very much in line with the raw GPU advantage between 10.2tf and 12tf. It's not enough to actually have different framerate targets on the two systems, nor enough to have any notable resolution differences, but it can theoretically help when it comes to preventing drops below targets (though we haven't yet seen that difference manifest in gameplay scenarios).
I thought Control on XSX held up better under combat stress tests than the PS5 but had inexplicable drops elsewhere.
 

aevanhoe

Slayer of the Eternal Voidslurper
Member
Aug 28, 2018
7,329
I wouldn't say 16% is a small difference. That is just the average aswell. It was nearly 25 more at points

Here we go.....

Sigh. How many more games we need to have to see that both consoles are practically the same in all metrics that matter? Which is good. End the war, warriors.
 

VanWinkle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,095
Then again, the PS5 version of the game is about 45% smaller in size than the XSX version.

I do agree on the loading thing though, I don't understand what is happening there. There simply is absolutely no reason that the PS5 and the XSX should load a game in the exact same amount of time. Like NONE. Absolutely none. There I no technical basis for it to even remotely occur. Even if everything that had to the with IO processing on the PS5 was 30% slower than the XSX, from just raw IO transfer throughput the PS5 should still end up loading faster.
It is really bizarre, but it has shown in practically every single multiplatform game. MAN I'd love to hear from devs about this. When it comes to first-party games, you rarely if ever see any loading times above 5 seconds.

I thought Control on XSX held up better under combat stress tests than the PS5 but had inexplicable drops elsewhere.

From what I recall in the head-to-head video, the Series X drops are mostly in line with the PS5 (which shows that things outside of the GPU or different workloads for the GPU are balancing out the framerate between the two in actual gameplay), but the Series X has the same stuttering issue that last-gen consoles exhibited. I don't know if that's a hardware issue or a bug, though. I would have thought it was a limitation of the HDD and thus wouldn't show in a system with an SSD, but I am not knowledgeable on that.
 

Laver

Banned
Mar 30, 2018
2,654
Then again, the PS5 version of the game is about 45% smaller in size than the XSX version.

I do agree on the loading thing though, I don't understand what is happening there. There simply is absolutely no reason that the PS5 and the XSX should load a game in the exact same amount of time. Like NONE. Absolutely none. There I no technical basis for it to even remotely occur.
If the loading times are bound by the CPU, and the CPUs are near identical, it could be the reason you're looking for.
 

plagiarize

It's not a loop. It's a spiral.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,559
Cape Cod, MA
It is really bizarre, but it has shown in practically every single multiplatform game. MAN I'd love to hear from devs about this. When it comes to first-party games, you rarely if ever see any loading times above 5 seconds.



From what I recall in the head-to-head video, the Series X drops are mostly in line with the PS5 (which shows that things outside of the GPU or different workloads for the GPU are balancing out the framerate between the two in actual gameplay), but the Series X has the same stuttering issue that last-gen consoles exhibited. I don't know if that's a hardware issue or a bug, though. I would have thought it was a limitation of the HDD and thus wouldn't show in a system with an SSD, but I am not knowledgeable on that.
The stutters almost all seem to be related to HUD elements appearing (like the tiny 'saving the game' icon can trigger them), and it would make zero sense for that to be related to storage throughput.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
You wont get a patch into these machines for anything close to DLSS since it's hardware based. However, we know Xbox will have/has something done on the software/API side called Direct ML. They've shown samples but it was using tensor cores to help, I think. We don't have anything concrete on what the equivalent is for the PS5, if anything, yet.
DirectML isn't an AI upscaler. it's the foundation of which one can be built on
 

Hope

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,065
I remember that the Xbox one outperformed the PS4 in alot of scenes. Maybe the engine generally better on Xbox since they made exclusive games for like 10 years.
 

mikehaggar

Developer at Pixel Arc Studios
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
1,379
Harrisburg, Pa
The most interesting thing for me is seeing the gpu headroom above 30fps when in RT mode on both consoles (in a very demanding game). Loving that both of these systems are powerful pieces of tech.