This recent XSX Halo Infinite gif is looking a little downgraded after the news broke they needed to optimized it for Xbox One as well.
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Digital Foundry | Can Microsoft deliver next-gen experiences while still supporting Xbox One?
- Thread starter nib95
- Start date
This recent XSX Halo Infinite gif is looking a little downgraded after the news broke they needed to optimized it for Xbox One as well.
I don't really think it makes sense to compare One X to Series X in this regard when one was a mid gen refresh and the other is a new gen.
I can't see the cross gen stuff being much different than last time, even if they end up selling them in a single sku. If they go the single sku route I'm sure the Series X patches will be much larger and more extensive with their additions compared to One X patches as well as replacing code to make the games more optimized for Series X. I also wouldn't be surprised if the One versions are in fact handled by different teams, especially in this era of multiple teams working on one game. Hell MS had like what, 7 studios working on different parts of MCC?
Aren't all their games coming to PC without SSD tho? I don't think the SSD will do much more than fast loading for the next few years as Microsoft is making games for PC where that's not common yet.
That would mean publishers paying an additional team without any extra monetization to cover that cost, I dont see that happening at all
One thing that might be important is when the devs were told that games they are making will be on xbox one s/x and the next gen XsX.
If they were told this early on in development they could plan and make the game take better advantage of xsx/pc hardware.
I think we even saw this with gears 5, I think there were technical decisions made so they could make the 1X version dynamic 4k60fps.
Maybe some devs planning on making the x1s version 1080p 30fps and the X1X version 4k 30fps, once they got news of XsX, they could adjust the x1s version to 720p 30fps and the X1X to 1700p.
If they were told this early on in development they could plan and make the game take better advantage of xsx/pc hardware.
I think we even saw this with gears 5, I think there were technical decisions made so they could make the 1X version dynamic 4k60fps.
Maybe some devs planning on making the x1s version 1080p 30fps and the X1X version 4k 30fps, once they got news of XsX, they could adjust the x1s version to 720p 30fps and the X1X to 1700p.
We're only talking about MS here, other publishers will just sell two versions if a game is cross gen. MS isn't too concerned with individual game sales as much as they are keeping people in their ecosystem and game pass subs.
I don't think it will be too much of a problem to make crossgen games look next gen visually on the Series X. But I do think that having the Xbox One as the baseline will stop games from feeling Next Gen as I feel that developers will have to keep their ambitions in check on the gameplay side of things.
But i guess we will probably have to wait and see.
But i guess we will probably have to wait and see.
I don't see any point in them dropping the S if the 1X is still being supported. It won't make a difference at all in this particular discussion because it's still running the same gimped CPU.
Here's a question. Is the shadow of mordor situation common enough to use it as a negative against their strategy?
There will be some crossover in the first launch year of Series X and then MS will migrate people over to either Game Pass and Xcloud streaming, or Lockhart. There is always generation crossover. It just so happens that MS kinda loves letting people play all the games on everything but the sooner they drop base XB, the better.
A question with respect to the Forza 2 360 video then:
I know they're not the same game, bit do people seriously think the studios each built their own versions of the track, and car geometry?
Duplicating each others work to come out with near identical assets?
Does that sound like an efficient use of money?
What is more likely is the assets that could be shared were shared, those elements that had to be platform specific (probably a lot of the core logic) would be split across the two devs.
I'm not saying you'll see 100% of the Series X power at launch but when it comes out:
a) you won't be able to tell if 'sacrifices' have been made
b) it won't matter because no console launch game has ever utilised the full capacity of a system anyway, exclusive or not you'll be seeing 'early-gen output' nowhere near as good as what is built three years from now
I know they're not the same game, bit do people seriously think the studios each built their own versions of the track, and car geometry?
Duplicating each others work to come out with near identical assets?
Does that sound like an efficient use of money?
What is more likely is the assets that could be shared were shared, those elements that had to be platform specific (probably a lot of the core logic) would be split across the two devs.
I'm not saying you'll see 100% of the Series X power at launch but when it comes out:
a) you won't be able to tell if 'sacrifices' have been made
b) it won't matter because no console launch game has ever utilised the full capacity of a system anyway, exclusive or not you'll be seeing 'early-gen output' nowhere near as good as what is built three years from now
Cross-gen games have definitely always existed, and if you watched the video you would see that a first party actually did pull them off before, and that first party goes by the name of Microsoft.
But you know what has also always existed? Exclusive games made as showpieces that couldn't have been possible on the console before it, that drive sales for that console.
Those will not exist for the first two years of the Series X's availability, per Matt Booty.
No amount of mental gymnastics can convince me that this is a positive development for the prospects of the Series X.
In my experience in my work, with a relatively similar situation (iOS development), producing something that works well and looks good for devices ranging from 2013's iPhone 5S, 2019's iPhone 11 Pro and everything in between is a lot of extra effort and you never get away from the feeling (and fact) that you aren't maximising what devices at either end are capable of. Simple scalability is possible in some places (like resolution), but in others you end up doing twice the work to take advantage of new hardware features available on a subset of devices.
Cross generational development has significant downsides. Always has. Always will. You'll get games that look worse at the low end, and games that look worse at the high end, games that cost more to make and take longer to come out. Some studios will handle it more easily than others, and to be fair, Microsoft have clearly been preparing for this for some time. Their first party is already building games that are intended to be highly scalable between different devices, but you'll never get as good a result as if you have a developer focus on a single hardware target. The only way Microsoft will be able to hide that fact is if their device is significantly stronger than their competitor, and in all likelihood the only way they're going to be able to achieve that is by coming in at a higher price point.
Cross generational development has significant downsides. Always has. Always will. You'll get games that look worse at the low end, and games that look worse at the high end, games that cost more to make and take longer to come out. Some studios will handle it more easily than others, and to be fair, Microsoft have clearly been preparing for this for some time. Their first party is already building games that are intended to be highly scalable between different devices, but you'll never get as good a result as if you have a developer focus on a single hardware target. The only way Microsoft will be able to hide that fact is if their device is significantly stronger than their competitor, and in all likelihood the only way they're going to be able to achieve that is by coming in at a higher price point.
Sony won't have to. Their first party studios are dedicated to making exclusives that take full advantage of the PS5.
We still don't know if Sony is going to have their own Lockhart. It won't be as bad as this situation but it might make the difference less obvious - ie targetting 4K60 with the higher end model or something. There will still be a substantial difference between companies if it's only a GPU change between two PS skus.
I hope to god they don't, but it might make sense to.
I hope to god they don't, but it might make sense to.
How many of those couldn't be done on previous hardware because of gameplay? I can't think of a single launch game that fundamentally changed gaming beyond visuals.
And if MS and Sony wants to keep people in their ecosystems, it's going to be important to assure customers that they arent going to be perpetually buying the same games, and they both have specifically stated one of the main factors in the move to x86 was to have library continuity. Even if a game is assured to be going straight to GamePass/PSNow, why would a publisher waste the money on making a completely separate version when they already have a perfectly functional version they already paid to develop?
That was a bad situation and MS decided to make things much, much worse (IMHO).
This question will be a lot more clear once both companies have shown there hand.
The question is are XsX versions going to be like gears 1/gta5 current gen remakes or be like God of war and uncharted remasters.
It's crazy how well gears + GTA5 remake compares to current gen exclusives, yes gears 5 and RDR2 do look better, but those remakes were accepted from a visual standpoint.
Also current gen games did not really make much progression in terms of gameplay. Halo infinite will still be "new", if it does better gameplay innovations then fully next gen exclusives then what then?
Better hardware is not needed for new gameplay elements. I mean I'm sure there's many who think BOTW is a more sophisticated game then horizon ZD or rdr2 despite it being made on vastly weaker hardware.
The question is are XsX versions going to be like gears 1/gta5 current gen remakes or be like God of war and uncharted remasters.
It's crazy how well gears + GTA5 remake compares to current gen exclusives, yes gears 5 and RDR2 do look better, but those remakes were accepted from a visual standpoint.
Also current gen games did not really make much progression in terms of gameplay. Halo infinite will still be "new", if it does better gameplay innovations then fully next gen exclusives then what then?
Better hardware is not needed for new gameplay elements. I mean I'm sure there's many who think BOTW is a more sophisticated game then horizon ZD or rdr2 despite it being made on vastly weaker hardware.
I can understand the leap in CPU and SSD power but are people really expecting never seen before games on nextgen system? Outside of graphical leaps, what do people expect from launch titles? Classically is a few years after that real showstopper games appear right?
This isn't going to be a concern on a game design or technical level... The only concern here is a marketing one (an explanation is coming, don't worry).
Throughout gaming history, across ALL console generational transitions (with perhaps the only exception being the SNES-N64 transition), first parties have a dirty little secret that they'd rather you didn't know about...
All launch-window titles for a new console, from a first party studio, are ports from the previous console
This is a universal truth, and the first parties have traditionally tried to hide this by pretending that their new consoles make these new games possible, and that they simply couldn't have been made on the previous console; but very rarely is this actually true.
Even going as far back as the SNES we can see this phenomenon starting. Simcity is a perfect example of a game that was originally designed for NES, before having its NES version cancelled and turned into a showpiece title for the new SNES hardware. Ico was originally a PS1 game, Saturn and 32X were littered with Megadrive ports and cancelled Mega Drive games that were up-ported as "exclusives"; Gran Turismo HD on PS3 was just a port-up of Gran Turismo 4; Metroid Prime 3 and Super Mario Galaxy were originally built on modified Gamecube hardware; Pikmin 3 was originally a Wii game and so on and so forth...
I bet you didn't know that every single first party launch-window title for the Xbox One was originally running on 360...
Ryse: Son of Rome on Xbox 360
Killer Instinct on Xbox 360
Crimson Dragon on Xbox 360
Oh, and just as an added bonus...
Here is Kameo: Elements of Power on the original Xbox; basically 100% identical to the Xbox 360 version
The point I'm making here? Previously, console manufacturers have gone to great lengths to hide this truth from their customers; in order to paint their new consoles in a better light. However, this time, Microsoft are going against the grain and are not hiding it anymore. Microsoft is no longer in the business of selling boxes and pushing hardware platforms, but rather they are positioning Xbox as a service that works across a myriad of devices (including PC, mobile and Switch). Microsoft therefore, have no need to hide this truth anymore, as they benefit from making their userbase for Game Pass as large as possible.
It is standard for the first 1-2 years of a console's life to be made up primarily of first-party projects that were cancelled on previous consoles and then ported up to the new hardware; and this has been true for as long as consoles have been pushing 3D graphics (this window was historically shorter, but has been steadily increasing as game development requirements and complexity has increased over time). Sony will be doing exactly the same thing as what Microsoft are doing here; but will not be telling you that they're doing it. When they make the claim that Demon's Souls Remastered and Gran Turismo 7 could only be done with The Power Of Playstation 5; they are bullshitting you.
Sony want to sell you a shiny new box, and they will do everything they can to make you think that it's literally a gift from God. Microsoft are no longer in the business of just selling boxes; they want your Game Pass sub, and they don't really care how they get it.
Game design has not really been limited by CPU/GPU specs since the PS2/Xbox/GCN era and that is still true now; no matter how much the console manufacturers want you to believe otherwise.
Throughout gaming history, across ALL console generational transitions (with perhaps the only exception being the SNES-N64 transition), first parties have a dirty little secret that they'd rather you didn't know about...
All launch-window titles for a new console, from a first party studio, are ports from the previous console
This is a universal truth, and the first parties have traditionally tried to hide this by pretending that their new consoles make these new games possible, and that they simply couldn't have been made on the previous console; but very rarely is this actually true.
Even going as far back as the SNES we can see this phenomenon starting. Simcity is a perfect example of a game that was originally designed for NES, before having its NES version cancelled and turned into a showpiece title for the new SNES hardware. Ico was originally a PS1 game, Saturn and 32X were littered with Megadrive ports and cancelled Mega Drive games that were up-ported as "exclusives"; Gran Turismo HD on PS3 was just a port-up of Gran Turismo 4; Metroid Prime 3 and Super Mario Galaxy were originally built on modified Gamecube hardware; Pikmin 3 was originally a Wii game and so on and so forth...
I bet you didn't know that every single first party launch-window title for the Xbox One was originally running on 360...
Ryse: Son of Rome on Xbox 360
Killer Instinct on Xbox 360
Crimson Dragon on Xbox 360
Oh, and just as an added bonus...
Here is Kameo: Elements of Power on the original Xbox; basically 100% identical to the Xbox 360 version
The point I'm making here? Previously, console manufacturers have gone to great lengths to hide this truth from their customers; in order to paint their new consoles in a better light. However, this time, Microsoft are going against the grain and are not hiding it anymore. Microsoft is no longer in the business of selling boxes and pushing hardware platforms, but rather they are positioning Xbox as a service that works across a myriad of devices (including PC, mobile and Switch). Microsoft therefore, have no need to hide this truth anymore, as they benefit from making their userbase for Game Pass as large as possible.
It is standard for the first 1-2 years of a console's life to be made up primarily of first-party projects that were cancelled on previous consoles and then ported up to the new hardware; and this has been true for as long as consoles have been pushing 3D graphics (this window was historically shorter, but has been steadily increasing as game development requirements and complexity has increased over time). Sony will be doing exactly the same thing as what Microsoft are doing here; but will not be telling you that they're doing it. When they make the claim that Demon's Souls Remastered and Gran Turismo 7 could only be done with The Power Of Playstation 5; they are bullshitting you.
Sony want to sell you a shiny new box, and they will do everything they can to make you think that it's literally a gift from God. Microsoft are no longer in the business of just selling boxes; they want your Game Pass sub, and they don't really care how they get it.
Game design has not really been limited by CPU/GPU specs since the PS2/Xbox/GCN era and that is still true now; no matter how much the console manufacturers want you to believe otherwise.
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While I completely understand that Halo Infinite would remain cross-gen as that would be sales suicide to leave behind the X1 install base, usually you would want some AA games to show case the hardware capabilities of their new console at launch. I think most people assumed Hell Blade 2 was a launch title at first?
I'll be shocked if Sony has any major AAA franchise games at console launch as well but I think they understand the importance of launching next gen software with your next gen console. I mean your NOT REALLY launching next gen without the software side, it's just another mid gen refresh until you force/allow the new minimum specification on the software.
My theory's:
1. Xbox Lockhart is real but not ready for this Holiday and they can't segment the generations until it is ready to make sure the proper next gen games are compatible with it.
2. The dev kits were legitimately late and no software will be ready for launch of XSX and this is marketing just saying "This was the plan all along"
Thoughts?
I'll be shocked if Sony has any major AAA franchise games at console launch as well but I think they understand the importance of launching next gen software with your next gen console. I mean your NOT REALLY launching next gen without the software side, it's just another mid gen refresh until you force/allow the new minimum specification on the software.
My theory's:
1. Xbox Lockhart is real but not ready for this Holiday and they can't segment the generations until it is ready to make sure the proper next gen games are compatible with it.
2. The dev kits were legitimately late and no software will be ready for launch of XSX and this is marketing just saying "This was the plan all along"
Thoughts?
Good analogy but it's worth mentioning:
This is MS first party output, they'll spend the money.
Like iOS development tooling to support the newer platform capabilities will have improved in a way that makes development easier across targets since 2013.
iOS build targets update with around four pieces of hardware each year? This is two new pieces of MS hardware, plus developers have had the ability to baseline for the improved graphical assets for a while before now. Raytracing didn't just arrive yesterday.
How exactly do you measure how "sophisticated" a game is? Who would argue the scale and scope of BOTW compares to RDR2?
This isn't true at all. It's definitely true in some cases, though, but definitely not all.
Of course they can . We had SEGA supporting the Master System with Mega Drive ports or SEGA expected to get Model 2 games on the Saturn . 2 years is too long mind, it's should just be for the 1st year. Nice too if you only have to buy the game once as well .
The existence of Lockhart actually makes a little more sense now: at some point a few years from now, Xbox One S will be phased out as the Xbox One baseline and Lockhart will take its place.
Design games for the One, bump up the resolution and effects from there. Probably the simplest solution and the most limiting. The XSX would be treated like another mid-gen refresh.
We don't know what new experiences developers can deliver with stuff like SSD and machine learning, they can at least try to find out as early as possible.
Since the PS2/Xbox/GCN era? Yeah, I think it's probably pretty true. Everything is prototyped and run on the previous hardware to some extent; it's just a matter of how far in development those games got before being pushed over to the next console. Even industry shattering, revolutionary launch titles like Wii Sports were originally developed on Gamecubes with wired Wii Remotes attached to them. We are not privy to everything behind closed doors, and only rarely do we get to see actual builds that were made for previous-gen consoles, but it's pretty obvious that everything comes from previous hardware from some stage in development. It's the only realistic way that launch titles could ever get made in the modern era, as game development takes too long and is too complicated to start from scratch each time a new console comes out.
And as time has gone on? That window of how long a new console relies on leftover projects from the previous console has gotten longer and longer. Take the Switch for example; after 3 years in, we are still seeing new releases that began their life on Wii U; like Luigi's Mansion 3, which Kensuke Tanabe has gone on public record to state that it originally began life as a Wii U game - and this is a game that has launched almost 3 years into the Switch's lifecycle! (Now you know why the Virtual Boo menu resembled a Wii U Gamepad screen so much ;) )
This is standard practice and has been for almost 2 decades now. Microsoft are just being transparant about it now, because they have no need to pretend that their new hardware is some groundbreaking amazeballs gift from God, because their corporate focus has shifted away from selling hardware now. The Xbox Series X is just a faster version of the current box on the market and nothing more.
You will not see anything different from Microsoft in terms of what you would typically expect from a new consoles first 2 or so years into its lifecycle, because all consoles go through this initial process where their first party titles are leftovers from the previous console anyway. We're just not used to seeing such transparancy from a console manufacturer before.
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I would say market reaction. People think and talk about BOTW being competitive to games made on more powerful hardware.
So essentially people are using a variable they don't know as a negative.
Crazily enough....the people who know the variable feel like this is the right decision for them.
Fuck it. Why even bother with new consoles given that it's clearly possible to make good games on the current ones.
Halo was a port of a Mac game that was already in development; that's well known.
Killzone Shadow Fall, we have never seen a PS3 build of; but it would almost certainly have originally started life as a PS3 game, just because it would've had to have been in order for the game to have gotten made in time for the PS4's launch. It's simple logistics.
Indeed, the lou1 A.I and animation, did not age to well, especially after playing UC4, TLOU1 was trying somthing new with the A.I though, be at times there attempts of making the A.I more realistic actually made it seem more fake, like when they ran away when you would pull a gun at enemy humans.
Expanding this to first 2 years of availability to make it a fair comparison
Sunset Overdrive
Dead Rising 3 (as explained in the video)
Killzone Shadow Fall
Watch Dogs
Uncharted: Drake's Fortune
Infamous: Second Son
Warhawk (PS3)
Halo 3
Ryze: Son Of Rome
Gears of War
Halo: Combat Evolved
Soul Calibur (hell, half the Dreamcast launch lineup for that matter)
Metal Gear Solid 2
Grand Theft Auto III
This is just off the top of my head.