Digital Foundry | Can Microsoft deliver next-gen experiences while still supporting Xbox One?

[Ploid 6.0]

It's just gonna be like on PC. I'll be able to play next gen games on my old hardware for a while with stuff turned down/off, but eventually it'll become too slow. In the same way, the old XBO will get phased out of support for newer games. Such doom and gloom. It's not gonna be completely different architecture that's incompatible with the old stuff. Same thing for the PS5.

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Selling games that perform like trying to play a PC game under the minimum spec (Control Xbox One base, watching the DF video of it, I'm sure they patched it to work well by now) shouldn't be allowed, and would be horrible for consumers. I remember playing GTA5 on PS3, that thing felt so horrible and seem to always be at around in the 20fps range. At the least they should give late ports to Xbox One and Xbox One S, but allow Xbox One X if a game perform horribly. We shall see how things are though. I have doubts about Cyberpunk on the base consoles.

 

[.exe]

Selling games that perform like trying to play a PC game under the minimum spec (Control Xbox One base, watching the DF video of it, I'm sure they patched it to work well by now) shouldn't be allowed, and would be horrible for consumers. I remember playing GTA5 on PS3, that thing felt so horrible and seem to always be at around in the 20fps range. At the least they should give late ports to Xbox One and Xbox One S, but allow Xbox One X if a game perform horribly. We shall see how things are though. I have doubts about Cyberpunk on the base consoles.

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I agree. But having seen the state of many Switch ports, developers don't shy away from low frame rates, blurry textures, low resolutions. I can see the early next-gen stuff being that kind of port. Give it time and people will just praise how it's even running on the old hardware. I don't really get it, but if people are okay with playing games that way, more power to them -- allows you to save some money, wait for a sale on the new console. The rest can pick up the Series X.

No it won't be like that, it's the CPU that will become the issue rather than the GPU as you will have to design and restrict game logic to what your base spec is.

It's very likely that these games will look really really good and be as next gen as you can imagine because the game itself is less taxing overall.

It's more like a port up when the game is designed for XO and then the additional resources the XSX provides will allow them to go to 11 with the graphics.

The problem you have is that the Devs will have finite resources/time so always going to have compromises somewhere away from reaching idealised expectations.

ps3ud0 8)

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I dunno. Games can scale really well if you design them to. Just look at some of the stuff on Switch. We'll see of course, but I don't think it's going to be holding much back in the launch window or first-year period. It would be surprising to see things that only come to PS5 for technical reasons, despite it being the weaker of the two (supposedly).

 

[Jeffram]

The difference is code that runs on the XSX should run directly on the X1 as well, with very little modification. So, all you are doing is tweaking things that affect performance.

You don't have to port the entire thing and modify your entire engine to support a different architecture and OS layer.

Yes, a lot of changes will be made for performance reasons, but I'm talking about the amount of work to get on the older console at all. It will be SO much easier to move your game from one to the other this time around.

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Definitely see what you're saying. I'm just saying at some point as the performance delta increases, the performance delta becomes the biggest issue.

DF says at 3.2Ghz, the jump from last gen is 6x. There's speculation that we'll get 3.6Ghz which would be 7x. The other way around, is current gen CPUs will be only capable of 14% of what next gen CPUs are. How do you cut out 86% of your simulation and have it be the same game? I'm thinking that at 7X, you can't.

 

[BAD]

People loved Xbox One's Forza Horizon 2, and that was a game that was also available on the Xbox 360. 🤷

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That was not the same software being scaled, it was two studios with two separate projects. The studios themselves said they were different games, as the 360 version was built in a different graphics engine and was a game with no open world, weather, etc. More comparable to Splinter Cell Double Agent, which had the same title on Xbox and Xbox 360 because of their premise, but were not the same game in the end.

 

[ToadPacShakur]

Are you for real???

Also, there is no confirmation that all 1st party launch games will be cross gen, and secondly there are no precedents to this so we have no idea of knowing 100% if it will hold back or not. All we know is that MS will have cross gen titles.

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Just report and move on

 

[Deleted member 30681]

I'm honestly kinda confused by the frustration with Halo Infinite being cross gen? Like I get this is in general about MS's 1st party plans rather than halo infinite specifically but I felt it was pretty obvious that this would happen with Infinite.

The impression I get from Infinite is that it started out development on the Xbox One/Xbox One X so I don't see why they wouldn't also release it there, if that's where development for it started.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

TLDR. Maybe. Will see. Cyberpunk is gonna be interesting.

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Aren't you meant to link the video?

 

[Deleted member 24021]

People loved Xbox One's Forza Horizon 2, and that was a game that was also available on the Xbox 360. 🤷

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With significant changes to the 360 version. The gap in power between the base Xbox One and Series X is much larger than Xbox 360 to Xbox One.

 

[YourFriendLevi]

I'm less concerned with next gen games being underwhelming so that they can work on base Xbox One and more concerned with what has to be trimmed from a Series X title to get it running on XB1. I saw Dragon Age Inquisition on Xbox 360.

 

[jroc74]

The interesting thing about that is you know Microsoft developers would have told Phil or the people calling the shots that crossgen would be a limiting factor and it would allow for vastly superior PS5 exclusives. It's not like it's going to take MS by surprise, so logically you would have Phil and other Xbox people making the business decision to release vastly inferior exclusives. I don't see that happening.

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Which leaves a big question: why aren't they doing like both MS and Sony did this gen and have both cross gen and exclusives?

I can't see Sony having mostly next gen games the first 2 years, it will be some but not alot. Why aren't MS doing that too?

Or will they? We don't have all the details yet, AFAIK.

Then another question is some suggest just cutting One S, og XBO off. Focus only on One X for cross gen. IMO that doesn't sit right with me. It makes sense but still.

Especially because 3rd parties will still focus on the base consoles. And with the split with base vs mid gen refresh....that's such a smaller group you may as well don't do cross gen at all.

I guess we'll see if MS can pull it off. It'll only be for a year or two anyway.

 

[Theorry]

Aren't you meant to link the video?

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What video?

 

[Monster Zero]

Expect a situation like Red Dead Redemption 2 PC vs One X. The ones on the weaker consoles will downplay the differences in assets if framerate is the same and they both target 4K. One thing that would make an immediate difference would be raytracing. Imagine if the Series X version of Halo had raytraced lighting(Metro) vs the One X version standard lighting.

 

[Deleted member 4970]

Very good video, as always

Hadn't considered the possibility of supporting the One meaning old games being brought forward. I'd very much like that.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

Weather this is a good or bad idea will depend on how well there games on XsX compare to PS5 exclusives.
If ps5 exclusives look vastly better then ms exclusives on xsx it will make the ps5 look more powerful then it actually is.

It would be bad for MS if It's like comparing TLOU1 remake to ryse.

 

[Deleted member 51848]

The answer? Only if gameplay design remains exactly the same as today.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

What video?

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sleepr told me that this thread was about this recent video

 

[Marble]

Still worried that Xbox One as a base config will limit the next-gen experience of games such as Halo Infinite. Time will tell.

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It probably won't. We will simply never know what Halo Infinite would've been if it were designed only for Series X.

 

[thecaseace]

The interesting thing about that is you know Microsoft developers would have told Phil or the people calling the shots that crossgen would be a limiting factor and it would allow for vastly superior PS5 exclusives. It's not like it's going to take MS by surprise, so logically you would have Phil and other Xbox people making the business decision to release vastly inferior exclusives. I don't see that happening.

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I don't believe this will happen either.

People speak what they want to be true, we're seeing so much chat about this decision by Microsoft because some users here want Microsoft's choice to support crossgen to be a limiting factor.

In reality the nature of software development now is such that it won't be.

If you spend the time and money to build for multiple platforms you can get the most out of each. This has always been true and the games being developed for next gen now have had some runway before knowing what dev target they have to aim for.

I mention the vastly superior PS5 exclusives because based on how limiting people seem to think MS crossgen is, people should also think the PS5 exclusives we're expecting should be easily superior, yet nobody is suggesting this here?

 

[Legacy]

If Halo Infinite is technically held back in any way, I'm prob going to switch to Sony for the first time. I'm buying next gen for 4K gaming and really want to see what these consoles can do

 

[Theorry]

sleepr told me that this thread was about this recent video

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They just uploaded that 50 min ago.

 

[DestroyerOfWorlds]

Definitely see what you're saying. I'm just saying at some point as the performance delta increases, the performance delta becomes the biggest issue.

DF says at 3.2Ghz, the jump from last gen is 6x. There's speculation that we'll get 3.6Ghz which would be 7x. The other way around, is current gen CPUs will be only capable of 14% of what next gen CPUs are. How do you cut out 86% of your simulation and have it be the same game? I'm thinking that at 7X, you can't.

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My point was about the development work required to port/scale to old hardware, not about the impact it will have on the games.

Yeah, those are potential issues and there will be a limit to how much games can be scaled down.

Fortunately, not all XSX games will have to scale down. We will just be seeing it in this first transition period, where games don't often push new hardware very hard anyway.

So, it will be a short lived problem anyway.

 

[Detective Pidgey]

Weather this is a good or bad idea will depend on how well there games on XsX compare to PS5 exclusives.
If ps5 exclusives look vastly better then ms exclusives on xsx it will make the ps5 look more powerful then it actually is.

It would be bad for MS if It's like comparing TLOU1 remake to ryse.

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Even not taking into account games being cross gen, I still expect Sony exclusives to look better. I don't expect Fable anytime soon and the other new studios probably won't have games ready for a while.

So we have Halo Infinite, Hellblade 2 isn't coming soon either. Maybe Compulsion could have something to show next year? But I don't expect them to rival Sony studios when it comes to visuals and animations, same goes for Undead Labs and so on. Then we have The Coalition, no idea if we're gonna see something at this E3 from them.

And that's versus whatever Sony Santa Monica is working on, Guerilla Games and so on. I expect it will take time before we can expect such visuals and animations from several of the new XGS, and that's fine.

 

[Theorry]

Even not taking into account games being cross gen, I still expect Sony exclusives to look better. I don't expect Fable anytime soon and the other new studios probably won't have games ready for a while.

So we have Halo Infinite, Hellblade 2 isn't coming soon either. Maybe Compulsion could have something to show next year? But I don't expect them to rival Sony studios when it comes to visuals and animations, same goes for Undead Labs and so on. Then we have The Coalition, no idea if we're gonna see something at this E3 from them.

And that's versus whatever Sony Santa Monica is working on, Guerilla Games and so on. I expect it will take time before we can expect such visuals and animations from several of the new XGS, and that's fine.

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Everwild.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

They just uploaded that 50 min ago.

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sleepr probably made a mistake then.

For some reason I can't see this thread in the gaming forum, is it on page 1?

 

[Jiraiya]

If Halo Infinite is technically held back in any way, I'm prob going to switch to Sony for the first time. I'm buying next gen for 4K gaming and really want to see what these consoles can do

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How will you know it's being held back?

 

[Deleted member 13560]

Them opting to continue cross generation support for new titles gives me an idea to how much their Series X price is going to be. It's not going to be $399 or $499. They've got to continue to provide content for people who aren't going to be able to afford this new premium console. That's just me speculating, so don't get upset at me for thinking that this console is going to be $600+. I'm just another person with a shitty opinion.

 

[Theorry]

sleepr probably made a mistake then.

For some reason I can't see this thread in the gaming forum, is it on page 1?

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Page 3. Thread with the article was made over 2 hours ago. :)

 

[Yogi]

If Halo Infinite is technically held back in any way, I'm prob going to switch to Sony for the first time. I'm buying next gen for 4K gaming and really want to see what these consoles can do

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• 4K gaming
• really want to see what these consoles can do

You may have to pick between the two, in some games anyway. Hopefully.

 

[Knight613]

I would imagine their strategy would have to be focusing on making the game for Series X first and then worry about porting/dropping effects/features for Xbox One after the fact rather than focus on making the game for Xbox One and then figuring out what they can add to the Series X version.

 

[Bgamer90]

That was not the same software being scaled, it was two studios with two separate projects. The studios themselves said they were different games, as the 360 version was built in a different graphics engine and was a game with no open world, weather, etc. More comparable to Splinter Cell Double Agent, which had the same title on Xbox and Xbox 360 because of their premise, but were not the same game in the end.

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Hmm...Here's a video of the Xbox 360 version of Forza Horizon 2. You can definitely notice the worse graphics & environments, but it still seems open world with a similar format as the Xbox One version.

With significant changes to the 360 version. The gap in power between the base Xbox One and Series X is much larger than Xbox 360 to Xbox One.

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Definitely—all I'm saying though is that the game can still be good/very impressive on the new system.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

Page 3. Thread with the article was made over 2 hours ago. :)

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I had the OP on ignore, never new it would hide threads made by the ignored user too.

 

[sleepr]

sleepr probably made a mistake then.

For some reason I can't see this thread in the gaming forum, is it on page 1?

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Thought it was the same article, my bad. Sorry.

 

[Black_Stride]

People loved Xbox One's Forza Horizon 2, and that was a game that was also available on the Xbox 360. 🤷

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You do know Forza Horizon 2 on Xbox 360 and the Forza Horizon 2 on Xbox One arent actually the same game?
They are quite different games....they only share the name, they might as well have called FH2 on 360 FH2Lite, because its not the same experience.
FH2 360 was developed pretty much independently by Sumo digital and wasnt actually open world like FH2 One.
FH2 360 uses the OG Horizon engine while FH2 starts from FM5 as a base.
FH2 360 doesnt have weather, tuning or even the new Drivatar system thats staple in Forza games now.

IF thats how MS is going to be doing crossgen thats actually hard work, and unlikely to be the strategy they would use.
Its easier on devs if they just develop the game for Series X and then do cuts and optimizations after the fact.....then pray that it works on the Xbox One.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

Thought it was the same article, my bad. Sorry.

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It's ok I had the OP on ignore, never knew ignoring a user would hide there threads.

 

[Yogi]

I would imagine their strategy would have to be focusing on making the game for Series X first and then worry about porting/dropping effects/features for Xbox One after the fact rather than focus on making the game for Xbox One and then figuring out what they can add to the Series X version.

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You can't do that.

Imagine having to rework massive sections of the games where it ends up being a separate development, taking twice as long and costing twice as much as you had planned for because it simply won't run well enough no matter what you do.

You basically have to port up. Which means things like higher settings for shadows/reflections, view distances, framerate and resolution. Things that will be easy to improve, guaranteed do-able. On last-gen games.

It's not the next-gen we deserve.

 

[No_Face]

Here's the thing. Almost every AAA game in the next two years will be crossgen anyways. We saw it both in 7th and 8th gen.

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Sure, but I'd argue that makes next-gen only first party titles even more important in the first year or two. They are the ones to really show whats possible. But we'll see. I'm sure their games will look great regardless.

 

[Watership]

One thing I constantly see quoted incorrectly is the time frame of all of this.

The interview was done in November of 2019 and he said one or two years from now in reference to Xbox one support. Which means one or two years from November of 2019, not the XSX launch which is Late 2020. This article goes under the assumption that Hellblade 2 will be supported for Xbox one and I highly doubt that.

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It was at X019 and yes, it was basically one line about 2 year support for games, but it wasn't clear and the interviewer didn't clarify.

Ie. People have made their own narrative.

 

[Dark1x]

Hmm...Here's a video of the Xbox 360 version of Forza Horizon 2. You can definitely notice the worse graphics & environments, but it still seems open world with a similar format as the Xbox One version.



Definitely—all I'm saying though is that the game can still be good/very impressive on the new system.

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The thing is - that was developed separately for 360. It's similar in spirit but not the same code running. The idea this time is that the same exact game would run across the full range of platforms / it would scale up or down.

That's what it so different this time. Doing separate versions is how cross-gen worked previously but it seems they want to back away from it.

What would it mean for something like Shadow of Mordor? Very different game on 360 and PS3. If this model were applied, however, it would need to be the same game across generations and conceivably, some features may been left behind.

Maybe that's all just BS but it's interesting to think about.

Here's the thing. Almost every AAA game in the next two years will be crossgen anyways. We saw it both in 7th and 8th gen.

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1) That isn't entirely true
2) The last gen versions were almost always developed separately with appropriate changes made - this new model MS is proposing wouldn't work that way.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

Hmm...Here's a video of the Xbox 360 version of Forza Horizon 2. You can definitely notice the worse graphics & environments, but it still seems open world with a similar format as the Xbox One version.

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There are two ways to put this:
- [XBOX360] still seems open world with a similar format as the Xbox One version. => The old console was able to keep up!
- XBOX One version's open world has the same format as the XBOX 360 version. => The new console was limited by the old one!

(both ways are probably right)

 

[Jiraiya]

The thing is - that was developed separately for 360. It's similar in spirit but not the same code running. The idea this time is that the same exact game would run across the full range of platforms / it would scale up or down.

That's what it so different this time. Doing separate versions is how cross-gen worked previously but it seems they want to back away from it.

What would it mean for something like Shadow of Mordor? Very different game on 360 and PS3. If this model were applied, however, it would need to be the same game across generations and conceivably, some features may been left behind.

Maybe that's all just BS but it's interesting to think about.



1) That isn't entirely true
2) The last gen versions were almost always developed separately with appropriate changes made - this new model MS is proposing wouldn't work that way.

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What have they said about this model that wouldn't allow for appropriate changes from a 1st party studio?

 

[ArchedThunder]

Why exactly does John think the games will be a single sku? Even if they are they will probably just force a download on XSX that is the next gen version of the game.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

Even not taking into account games being cross gen, I still expect Sony exclusives to look better. I don't expect Fable anytime soon and the other new studios probably won't have games ready for a while.

So we have Halo Infinite, Hellblade 2 isn't coming soon either. Maybe Compulsion could have something to show next year? But I don't expect them to rival Sony studios when it comes to visuals and animations, same goes for Undead Labs and so on. Then we have The Coalition, no idea if we're gonna see something at this E3 from them.

And that's versus whatever Sony Santa Monica is working on, Guerilla Games and so on. I expect it will take time before we can expect such visuals and animations from several of the new XGS, and that's fine.

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I'm talking from a technical perspective not an art preference.
I think Ms will need to make pretty extensive visual upgrade for the xsx/pc versions for them to be competitive on a technical level, unless ps5 exclusives look like Godfall, which I doubt they will.

 

[Dark1x]

What have they said about this model that wouldn't allow for appropriate changes from a 1st party studio?

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So you think they'd have two studios working on two entirely separate versions of a game and sell it as a single release? I suppose that IS possible...

Why exactly does John think the games will be a single sku? Even if they are they will probably just force a download on XSX that is the next gen version of the game.

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That's the model they've been moving to this generation. I don't think they'd sell separate versions at all.

The next-gen version is likely to be no different than releasing an X enhanced update. Settings changes and some new feature but nothing that dramatically alters anything. There won't be a Shadow of Mordor situation.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

So you think they'd have two studios working on two entirely separate versions of a game and sell it as a single release? I suppose that IS possible...

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What about let's say a high-res texture pack, which you can only download if you have the Series X? Or enabling RT for reflections if they are not important for the actual gameplay? Wouldn't those be options to enhance the game without having to build an entirely separate version?

 

[cakely]

That's the model they've been moving to this generation. I don't think they'd sell separate versions at all.

The next-gen version is likely to be no different than releasing an X enhanced update. Settings changes and some new feature but nothing that dramatically alters anything. There won't be a Shadow of Mordor situation.

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That's the impression I'm under: just like Xbox One S vs. Xbox One X. A single SKU for a game, with all the enhancements for the Xbox One X version compiled right into the disc/download.

The Xbox Series X will just add another, higher level of enhancements to first-party Xbox games released "for a year or two".

Do I have that right?

 

[Deleted member 24021]

Definitely—all I'm saying though is that the game can still be good/very impressive on the new system.

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It can be, I'm just worried of any sacrifices that have to be made.

 

[Fisty]

Definitely—all I'm saying though is that the game can still be good/very impressive on the new system.

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I agree, but you also have to take into account the business side of how it works. Almost every cross-gen title in the 7->8 transition was a port handled by a different team with it's own budget, and in almost every instance there was, at minimum, an up-charge to upgrade. In most cases it was a separate, full-price sku or a late remaster.

With full BC included day 1 in the transition from 8->9 and the "no charging for graphical enhancement" precedent set by PS4 Pro/XB1X, do you expect that "cross-gen titles" will be a thing, or in practice will it be one sku (gen 8) with enhancements based on what console you put it in? If a port isnt necessary, neither is the external team... so as a publisher, why spend that money at all when you could just add better graphics settings to gen 8 games for gen 9 owners and get the same $60? That is far more likely (when full BC is involved) than the alternative of a Rise of the Tomb Raider-like scenario where they pay two teams to make the same game

 

[dbcyber]

It certainly not an approach I prefer, definitely want to get my money's worth when I purchase next gen hardware and tend to look towards first party to push the tech to its limits. But honestly you can't miss what's not there. If Halo Infinite comes out and is an absolute kick arse game across all systems reviving the Halo brand, does it really matter if game design decisions had to account for 2013 tech?

 

[Detective Pidgey]

Everwild.

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Ah, right. But that game is still a bit early isn't it? I'm guessing that's a late 2021 game.

 

[Dark1x]

What about let's say a high-res texture pack, which you can only download if you have the Series X? Or enabling RT for reflections if they are not important for the actual gameplay? Wouldn't those be options to enhance the game without having to build an entirely separate version?

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Absolutely but then it's just like PC graphics settings again. I'm not talking about visuals being limited in any way. I'm talking about fundamental decisions made early in development that may be influenced by the need to support the Jaguar CPU + slow storage. Maybe that won't mean anything in many cases but that's what I'm thinking about here.