Digital Foundry | Can Microsoft deliver next-gen experiences while still supporting Xbox One?

Yautja_Warrior · Jan 14, 2020

It's a weird situation to have a new, powerful next gen console and have it only play, basically current gen games (because they will have to be designed to work on base Xbox One) for the first year or two, with no exclusives designed to take advantage of the new hardware.

thecaseace · Jan 14, 2020

The idea of crossgen holding back current gen is a last gen idea.

Developer tooling built to support various PCs, PS4 Pro, XB1X, XB1, PS4 and Switch has already reduced this issue and will do so more with the next wave of releases.

If crossgen turns out to be a limiting factor we'll see it in the vastly superior PS5 exclusives.

Firefly · Jan 14, 2020

I'm glad Richard brought up this example. I was told anyone who uses this example doesn't know anything about game development.

Meanwhile, Saber Interactive's The Witcher 3 port for Switch demonstrates spectacularly how it is possible to scale a CPU-intensive game across to a far less capable processor. The current-gen Sony and Microsoft machines have access to 6.5 available CPU cores running at 1.6GHz and upwards. Meanwhile, Switch is delivering the game using three mobile ARM cores clocked at just 1.0GHz. Those cores may well be more efficient, but they're not likely enough to overhaul the frequency uplift and additional cores that the game was designed around - yet somehow, Saber did it.

SeriousGoku · Jan 14, 2020

No, they can't. Its pretty obvious. If you have to cater to the lowest common denominator then there will be drawbacks.

Catering to the super underpowered and old ass original Xbox One in 2020 is a big fucking yikes.

Sony has the right approach.

BAD · Jan 14, 2020

Firefly said:
I'm glad Richard brought up this example. I was told anyone who uses this example doesn't know anything about game development.

But CDPR themselves suggested that Witcher 3 wasn't taking full advantage of the gen, as they don't think the current gen Cyberpunk 2077 would be able to ever come to Switch.

Detective Pidgey · Jan 14, 2020

I can't deny that I hate this uncertainty about next gen games and whether they will be held back or not.

I do understand the decision because it's smart business but I really wish MS would just go with Lockhart and XSX and go from there. People will eventually buy your system, I'm sure. Especially with trade in programs and the Lockhart at a low price.

We'll see how all this turns out. Worst case scenario 2021 has exclusives that don't show the full potential they could have. It's really only two years and this year is the first of those, right?

Prine · Jan 14, 2020

Firefly said:
I'm glad Richard brought up this example. I was told anyone who uses this example doesn't know anything about game development.

So much confidence whilst having no real insight to back it up, unlike DF. Typical of some Era members.

Thorzilla · Jan 14, 2020

chandoog said:
Cross Gen games have always existed, this seems like the first big case of a first party pulling them off.

Let's hope the results are better than Shadow of Mordor on PS3.

I too am expecting a Shadow of Mordor situation in legacy systems. Y1 - 2 will probably be another cross gen era, much like this one. I do expect Microsoft to begin delivering next gen exclusives some time around the second year of the new generation.

Firefly · Jan 14, 2020

Prine said:
So much confidence whilst having no real insight to back it up, unlike DF. Typical of some Era members.

Except the only insight in the DF article is that Saber "somehow" did it.

Jiraiya · Jan 14, 2020

BAD said:
But CDPR themselves suggested that Witcher 3 wasn't taking full advantage of the gen, as they don't think the current gen Cyberpunk 2077 would be able to ever come to Switch.

That doesn't take away what had to happen for switch to get the witcher.

grosbard · Jan 14, 2020

Brokenlynx said:
The idea of crossgen holding back current gen is a last gen idea.

Developer tooling built to support various PCs, PS4 Pro, XB1X, XB1, PS4 and Switch has already reduced this issue and will do so more with the next wave of releases.

If crossgen turns out to be a limiting factor we'll see it in the vastly superior PS5 exclusives.

The interesting thing about that is you know Microsoft developers would have told Phil or the people calling the shots that crossgen would be a limiting factor and it would allow for vastly superior PS5 exclusives. It's not like it's going to take MS by surprise, so logically you would have Phil and other Xbox people making the business decision to release vastly inferior exclusives. I don't see that happening.

Inuhanyou · Jan 14, 2020

The games will be pretty and be good games. But crossgen games are crossgen. By definition they will limited

The only thing that has changed is visuals are already good this gen so visual cutbacks might be less obvious at high res where artwork mattrrs more. But you can always do a lot more with more power. 5x the enemies on screen is an immediate thing people will see versus this gen

Noisepurge · Jan 14, 2020

Scaling down resolution, textures and some particles is fine. But from a gamedesign standpoint, what if you want to make a 1000 player battleroyale, that just wouldn´t even boot on an Xbox One S.

PowerThroughLov · Jan 14, 2020

The new CPUs enable new experiences you cannot do on the older consoles. It's not just prettier graphics, it's CPUs that can drive new environmental interaction/ destruction / ai models.
But you still need to actually build all that. It's only compromising if those would have been without it.

BAD · Jan 14, 2020

Jiraiya said:
That doesn't take away what had to happen for switch to get the witcher.

The point is we don't know if The Witcher is a good example, because all we really know is that it's not the most demanding game CDPR put on this gen. And if Cyberpunk 2077 can't come to Switch by their assessment, then there's definitely a suggestion there that scaling has delicate limits that are easy to blow past if you take advantage of new gens without considering a lowest common denominator.

JCreasy · Jan 14, 2020

Burrman said:
It was revealed as an Xbox one game. It's a BOTW situation, and that turned out pretty good for everyone.

No it was not. It was specifically announced as a launch game for the next generation Xbox. We know now it's cross-gen. But that trailer was supposed to show-off next gen visuals for Xbox.

https://www.polygon.com/e3/2019/6/9...meplay-e3-2019-microsoft-project-scarlett-343

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yaZQychDBE

ToadPacShakur · Jan 14, 2020

And I thought the conversation surrounding this shit was about to die down 😔😔😔

Without seeing any games, all we are doing is wasting battery power on our phones and laptops as well as keystrokes on our keyboards..

This is gonna be one long-ass year

Bobbetybob · Jan 14, 2020

Yautja_Warrior said:
It's a weird situation to have a new, powerful next gen console and have it only play, basically current gen games (because they will have to be designed to work on base Xbox One) for the first year or two, with no exclusives designed to take advantage of the new hardware.

But isn't this what happens with all next gen consoles anyway? What was the first game on the PS4 or Xbox One where you went "wow there's NO way this couldn't have run on an old console" from a gameplay perspective?

Tyaren · Jan 14, 2020

Developers will have to optimize games for a lot of consoles in the transition period to next gen. PS4, PS4 Pro, PS5, Xbox One, Xbox One X, Xbox Series X...

Prine · Jan 14, 2020

Firefly said:
Except the only insight in the DF article is that Saber "somehow" did it.

They usually have direct contact with the devs, more then we can say for forum members here.

Fisty · Jan 14, 2020

It's not a great strategy imo, as it trades off one major benefit of new consoles (the hard cut-off and subsequent leap). Getting the newest Xbox will be much less exciting when it is basically an Xbox One X2 for the first 2 years of its life

Bobbetybob said:
But isn't this what happens with all next gen consoles anyway? What was the first game on the PS4 or Xbox One where you went "wow there's NO way this couldn't have run on an old console" from a gameplay perspective?

Regardless of your opinion on "gameplay innovation" in 2013/4, first-party cross gen will only prolong the pains of gen 8 dev and our misery that is Jaguar.

m23 · Jan 14, 2020

JCreasy said:
No it was not. It was specifically announced as a launch game for the next generation Xbox. We know now it's cross-gen. But that trailer was supposed to show-off next gen visuals for Xbox.

https://www.polygon.com/e3/2019/6/9...meplay-e3-2019-microsoft-project-scarlett-343

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yaZQychDBE

It was also officially confirmed as a Xbox One game when it was announced.

rokkerkory · Jan 14, 2020

MS should cut cord on everything xbox including the X in 2 years from now tops. This is me as an X owner.

ToadPacShakur · Jan 14, 2020

Bobbetybob said:
But isn't this what happens with all next gen consoles anyway? What was the first game on the PS4 or Xbox One where you went "wow there's NO way this couldn't have run on an old console" from a gameplay perspective?

All the launch exclusives were just "hey it looks prettier" but that's it

Ryse: repetitive as hell, looks pretty
Forza 5: looks pretty
Dead Rising 3: meh, looks pretty
KillZone ShadowFall: boring, looks pretty
Knack: it's fuckin Knack
Playroom: tech demo for a part of the DS4 no one uses, looks pretty

Nameless · Jan 14, 2020

I mean take current gen games like RDR2 or Control, improve the texture quality, add Ray Tracing, raise FPS, turn on all the bells & whistles("ultra settings"), improve asset density & streaming, reduce load times to little-or-nothing and yeah, I'm sure they'd absolutely "wow" people to some degree, but it wouldn't change the fact that 'under the hood' they're still last gen at their heart.

Also I'm curious to see how MS responds if in 2 years there are still millions of Gamepass users chugging a long with their old systems.

Yogi · Jan 14, 2020

4K60fps ports with a little bit better view distance, shadows and reflections is not true next-gen.

We've had those for years on PC and it didn't make the games feel any more next-gen. We need a real next-gen. Things have gotten really damn stale.

Cross-gen is delaying next-gen, no two ways about it.

Imagine this sort of thing:

They're not going to be able to scale that to the X1. Lockhart maybe.

I don't think it's even fair to say they will be porting down games to the X1. They will be porting games up to the X1X. For 2 years!

I understand the reasoning but that's just terrible. At least have a few next-gen exclusives.

Jiraiya · Jan 14, 2020

BAD said:
The point is we don't know if The Witcher is a good example, because all we really know is that it's not the most demanding game CDPR put on this gen. And if Cyberpunk 2077 can't come to Switch by their assessment, then there's definitely a suggestion there that scaling has delicate limits that are easy to blow past if you take advantage of new gens without considering a lowest common denominator.

We do know if it's a good example. You can compare how much was scaled back in order to get it running on the switch as opposed to any other platform.

Cyberpunk being harder to do doesn't negate the witcher.

And here's the thing. Those two examples aren't first party titles being developed with the switch in mind. They're third party games made for pcx1ps4 and then later ported by another studio. Something tells me this makes a massive difference in a positive way.

chandoog · Jan 14, 2020

Video:

gofreak · Jan 14, 2020

Firefly said:
I'm glad Richard brought up this example. I was told anyone who uses this example doesn't know anything about game development.

Uses it for what? To support the idea that games are easily scalable today in the general case?

The article elsewhere raises the very points I've raised every time the Witcher 3/Switch example comes up, but in the context of X360 versions of certain Xbox One games. Those questions apply also to The Witcher 3 on Switch - the questions of the development model needed to make it happen (an external team, working after the fact) and the questions of whether the original vision would have been changed had they needed to accommodate Switch in the first place for a day-and-date release with the other versions. Just like those games don't prove a non-issue in cross-gen development, neither does Witcher 3 on Switch.

Fisty · Jan 14, 2020

ToadPacShakur said:
All the launch exclusives were just "hey it looks prettier" but that's it

Ryse: repetitive as hell, looks pretty
Forza 5: looks pretty
Dead Rising 3: meh, looks pretty
KillZone ShadowFall: boring, looks pretty
Knack: it's fuckin Knack
Playroom: tech demo for a part of the DS4 no one uses, looks pretty

Here's an article where a dev discusses why Dead Rising 3 couldn't happen on Xbox 360

Spoiler: it's not just graphics

gofreak said:
Uses it for what? To support the idea that games are easily scalable today in the general case?

The article elsewhere raises the very points I've raised every time the Witcher 3/Switch example comes up, but in the context of X360 versions of certain Xbox One games. Those questions apply also to The Witcher 3 on Switch - the questions of the development model needed to make it happen (an external team, working after the fact) and the questions of whether the original vision would have been changed had they needed to accommodate Switch in the first place. Just like those games don't prove a non-issue in cross-gen development, neither does Witcher 3 on Switch.

Come on, you're telling me that not every publisher is going to hire an external studio and give them months/years of time after the game launches and a sizable budget to make last-gen/next-gen ports of every "scalable" game? Madness!

Snake Eater · Jan 14, 2020

Developers are always going to focus on the lowest SKU, likely will be the best selling version also so it makes business sense

Bgamer90 · Jan 14, 2020

ThePhantom said:
I really don't want Forza Horizon 5 to be held back by the garbage hardware in the base Xbox One.

People loved Xbox One's Forza Horizon 2, and that was a game that was also available on the Xbox 360. 🤷

DestroyerOfWorlds · Jan 14, 2020

Scaling between the X1 and XSX should be much easier than it was to do 360 and X1 as the hardware and OSes are MUCH more similar this time around. It will still involve some work, but there shouldn't be the need for entire external teams to do full ports like with Titanfall.

JCreasy · Jan 14, 2020

Yogi said:
4K60fps ports with a little bit better view distance, shadows and reflections is not true next-gen.

We've had those for years on PC and it didn't make the games feel any more next-gen. We need a real next-gen. Things have gotten really damn stale.

Cross-gen is delaying next-gen, no two ways about it.

Imagine this sort of thing:

They're not going to be able to scale that to the X1.

I don't even think it's fair to say they will be porting down games to the X1. They will be porting games up to the X1X. For 2 years.

I understand the reasoning but that's just terrible. At least have a few next-gen exclusives.

I want this kind of destruction for Call of Duty, honestly. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Ploid 6.0 · Jan 14, 2020

Mullet2000 said:
Not really. They could just say the game's minimum spec requires an SSD.

In fact I'm sure we are going to see that in a lot of games' min specs in a couple years.

And just like any minimum spec requirement people will try it anyway, see how horrible it is, and upgrade to SSD (which are cheap so they might as well). Even Path of Exile PC pretty much push people towards SSD, it should be required, but I'm guessing it's a soft requirement (goes to see the POE system requirements).

Oooh snap, it has been begun-ed. A free to play ARPG, designed for SSD. Yep we getting there on the PC front!

Yautja_Warrior · Jan 14, 2020

Bobbetybob said:
But isn't this what happens with all next gen consoles anyway? What was the first game on the PS4 or Xbox One where you went "wow there's NO way this couldn't have run on an old console" from a gameplay perspective?

Gameplay hasn't changed much over the years and generations but graphically, Killzone: Shadow Fall and Infamous: Second Son, were very impressive looking early games, that showed a clear jump in power.

Bgamer90 · Jan 14, 2020

SeriousGoku said:
No, they can't. Its pretty obvious. If you have to cater to the lowest common denominator then there will be drawbacks.

Catering to the super underpowered and old ass original Xbox One in 2020 is a big fucking yikes.

Sony has the right approach.

The vast majority of games that will be on the PS5 and Xbox Series X during both system's first two years will also be playable on the 2013 PS4 and Xbox One.

I just find it funny how so many third party games back in 2013-2014 were viewed as being "next gen experiences" even though those games were on 360/PS3, but now all of a sudden the same being done this upcoming gen is a major issue simply because it's Microsoft instead of a third party company. And heck, Microsoft did this before—Forza Horizon 2 was on the 360, but yet many would agree that Forza Horizon 2 was a better game than Forza Motorsport 5 (a true Xbox One exclusive). It's getting mind boggling.

Jeffram · Jan 14, 2020

DestroyerOfWorlds said:
Scaling between the X1 and XSX should be much easier than it was to do 360 and X1 as the hardware and OSes are MUCH more similar this time around. It will still involve some work, but there shouldn't be the need for entire external teams to do full ports like with Titanfall.

Not sure if architecture is the biggest issue. The CPU performance jump this gen will be much greater than last time. Arguably, the CPUs this gen were not really a generational upgrade over 360 era in performance.

.exe · Jan 14, 2020

It's just gonna be like on PC. I'll be able to play next gen games on my old hardware for a while with stuff turned down/off, but eventually it'll become too slow. In the same way, the old XBO will get phased out of support for newer games. Such doom and gloom. It's not gonna be completely different architecture that's incompatible with the old stuff. Same thing for the PS5.

cakely · Jan 14, 2020

Theorry said:
Its announced for Xbox One.

I didn't know that. I thought it was Windows 10 coming to Xbox later ... and I had thought later meant Xbox Series X.

I'm trying to imagine those visuals coming out of my Sunset Overdrive Xbox One and I'm not seeing it.

Yogi · Jan 14, 2020

JCreasy said:
I want this kind of destruction for Call of Duty, honestly. I don't think that's too much to ask.

You know I was planning to stay on CODMW for a few years as I like it so much but if they did that I'd move on.

JCreasy · Jan 14, 2020

m23 said:
It was also officially confirmed as a Xbox One game when it was announced.

The footage we saw was supposed to be representative of next gen hardware. That's the point I'm making. Xbox Stans went to great lengths to explain why the trailer was impressive. Everyone else was less than impressed.

Perhaps it was constrained by the limitations of Xbox One.

Theorry · Jan 14, 2020

cakely said:
I didn't know that. I thought it was Windows 10 coming to Xbox later ... and I had thought later meant Xbox Series X.

I'm trying to imagine those visuals coming out of my Sunset Overdrive Xbox One and I'm not seeing it.

Lots of it is streaming. And what we are seeing now is streaming of the HD content. There is also a SD content when your bandwith is lower but that SD can maybe be the max for One S.
Talking about ground details.

Detective Pidgey · Jan 14, 2020

Snake Eater said:
Developers are always going to focus on the lowest SKU, likely will be the best selling version also so it makes business sense

Yeah, sadly it does make sense business wise.

But man, the Jaguar is seven years old when the next gen start, it's kinda enough. And there are examples of where games have been held back. Can MS succeed this time around? I hope so.

But on the other hand, again, it's been seven years. People knew that eventually it would end and that a new gen would start. So if MS were to drop Xbox One support it's perfectly normal. Not anymore because of their messaging though.

Ah well, none of us, neither DF can truly know if MS will pull it off or not.

Sub Boss · Jan 14, 2020

I would be fine with crossgen if it was base ps4 but not this, Microsoft can keep all their Halos and Hellblades Gears ,and cancelled games there are other systems out there

DestroyerOfWorlds · Jan 14, 2020

Jeffram said:
Not sure if architecture is the biggest issue. The CPU performance jump this gen will be much greater than last time. Arguably, the CPUs this gen were not really a generational upgrade over 360 era in performance.

The difference is code that runs on the XSX should run directly on the X1 as well, with very little modification. So, all you are doing is tweaking things that affect performance.

You don't have to port the entire thing and modify your entire engine to support a different architecture and OS layer.

Yes, a lot of changes will be made for performance reasons, but I'm talking about the amount of work to get on the older console at all. It will be SO much easier to move your game from one to the other this time around.

Nameless · Jan 14, 2020

DestroyerOfWorlds said:
Scaling between the X1 and XSX should be much easier than it was to do 360 and X1 as the hardware and OSes are MUCH more similar this time around. It will still involve some work, but there shouldn't be the need for entire external teams to do full ports like with Titanfall.

Sure, but it works both ways, right? Devs have been working with x86 for nearly a decade now. That learning curve/adjustment period from previous generations doesn't really apply anymore. It isn't going to take years of growing accustom to the architecture and tool-sets before they can fully tap in to the new systems' capabilities.

FacelessSamurai · Jan 14, 2020

Sub Boss said:
I would be fine with crossgen if it was base ps4 but not this, Microsoft can keep all their Halos and Hellblades Gears ,and cancelled games there are other systems out there

Are you for real???

Also, there is no confirmation that all 1st party launch games will be cross gen, and secondly there are no precedents to this so we have no idea of knowing 100% if it will hold back or not. All we know is that MS will have cross gen titles.

ps3ud0 · Jan 14, 2020

daxy said:
It's just gonna be like on PC. I'll be able to play next gen games on my old card for a while with stuff turned out, but eventually it'll become too slow. In the same way, the old XBO will get phased out of support for newer games. What is this doom and gloom. It's not gonna be completely new architecture that's incompatible with the old stuff. Same thing for the PS5.

No it won't be like that, it's the CPU that will become the issue rather than the GPU as you will have to design and restrict game logic to what your base spec is.

It's very likely that these games will look really really good and be as next gen as you can imagine because the game itself is less taxing overall.

It's more like a port up when the game is designed for XO and then the additional resources the XSX provides will allow them to go to 11 with the graphics.

The problem you have is that the Devs will have finite resources/time so always going to have compromises somewhere away from reaching idealised expectations.

ps3ud0 8)

Jiraiya · Jan 14, 2020

Sub Boss said:
I would be fine with crossgen if it was base ps4 but not this, Microsoft can keep all their Halos and Hellblades Gears ,and cancelled games there are other systems out there

Are you announcing you don't like Xbox and their ideas are dumb only because they aren't Sony? Man i wonder how folk get to this point.

Digital Foundry | Can Microsoft deliver next-gen experiences while still supporting Xbox One?

Alt Account

Alt Account

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account

Prophet of Truth

Character Artist

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account

Prophet of Truth

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account

Alt Account