Vader was clearly better than Luke in ESB and had just sliced his hand off. He didn't drop the dad card out of fear.
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Did Yoda and Obi-Wan want Luke to kill Vader?
- Thread starter Deleted member 21339
- Start date
Luke lost his faith after Ben turned and he thought he's doomed to repeat the cycle as Obi-Wan did. So he was determined to be the last.
Yoda returns to tell him that failure is a teacher and not a reason to give up.
I'm not sure why you'd think that. Obi Wan himself talks about Anakin as a dear friend. He had very personal feelings but didn't believe he could be turned.
In the end I just know I never thought Luke would continue on the Jedi by adhering staunchly to the old ways. So seeing Old Luke equating the Jedi to a bunch of old books in a tree was odd for me.
I understand. But I never felt Luke embodied the old Jedi anymore than I think Rey does. So Luke thinking the Jedi can be ended by burning some books and a tree is weird for me.
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Is murder so bad when you know for sure that after death you'll get to live on as an immortal ghost?
Anakin was already dead in their mind, kill the evil machine he had become was their idea I think. And in a way Luke did just that except it resulted in Vader turning back to Anakin.
I feel like there's some conflation between the actual "Jedi teaching" and the feelings of each individual Jedi involved. If we're looking on the original trilogy on their own, the Jedi teaching basically only boils down to "believe in the Force" and "do not give in to anger". There's a nary a hint that these Jedi ways are outdated and as Luke chose to let go of his hatred and proclaimed "I am a Jedi, like my father before me," he's adhering to the Jedi code as far as he's concerned. That Vader must be killed is shown more as Obi-Wan's and Yoda personal opinion rather than them conveying some kind of a teaching.
If we're putting the prequel trilogy into the discussion, then both Obi-Wan's and Yoda's sentiments become even more justified. Here the Jedi is depicted as at least partly to blame for their own downfall with their outdated and inflexible ways, but "you must kill the murderous servant of evil" was never a part of that. If anything, one could argue that their failure actually include not being able to do it quickly enough. It's not like they can just sit down with Dooku and Palpatine and hear their concerns to maybe reach some kind of an understanding.
And after Obi-Wan continuously pleaded for Anakin to turn back to no avail even after he massacred everyone in the temple, after Anakin lied there defeated, continuously spewing that he hated him, Obi-Wan still didn't have the heart to kill him because he's a dear friend. That must have a been a very big regret haunting him for years.
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Luke had compassion for his father and the fact that he would give his life for that belief before turning to the dark side is what brought Anakin back.
Don't the Jedi teach compassion in the prequels?
"Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is essential to a Jedi's life. So you might say, that we are encouraged to love."
TLJ as well since Luke went back to being a strict adherent to the old teachings of the Jedi and believed that Ben was beyond saving and almost killed him because of it.
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But he told him after he had beat the shit out of him and chopped his hand off
Actually Obi-Wan didn't kill Anakin out of a sense of feeling that Anakin deserved this. The merciful thing to do would've been to kill Anakin there and then.
Instead he watched him him burn and believed he would die. He never imagined that Palpatine would resuscitate and keep Anakin's melted husk alive.
Did the saarlac want to digest those people for 1000 years or whatever? Or did the Rangkor want to eat that big ass bone that got stuffed in his mouth? Motivation isn't important imo, all the characters are about as deep as puddle, you watch these movies for the pew pew, the laser swords, and the enslaved women in sexy outfits.
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Yeah but that's everything.
The reason that I have is the canon reason stated in the novel.
What a unique and thought provoking way to disrupt the FOOLS who are pathetically attempting to squeeze sense and meaning out of a purely capitalist work of fiction with their pale quivering nerd hands! Why, you can practically hear their atrophied finger muscles falling off their waifish bones like so much overcooked meat. Silly, silly nerds.
Doesn't the chosen one thing become bunk now because of Kylo ren. The prophecy was the chosen one would destroy the dark side of the force. But it didn't happen
100% yes
It's why the moment where Luke throws away the lightsaber in Jedi is my absolute favorite Star Wars moment, it shows that he has grown beyond the teachings of his mentors and the temptations of the dark side and has truly struck out and become his own master, a Jedi.
It's why the moment where Luke throws away the lightsaber in Jedi is my absolute favorite Star Wars moment, it shows that he has grown beyond the teachings of his mentors and the temptations of the dark side and has truly struck out and become his own master, a Jedi.
The prophecy was always a really dumb bad no good story concept, so it's a good thing they ignore it
It said he would destroy the Sith not the dark side. It's the return of Sheev that completely shits on Anakin, not Snoke and Kylo.(even though JJ is so unimaginative they're pretty much just Sith who don't call themselves Sith)
No. The prophecy says that through the Chosen One that balance will be restored to the Force.
So if Anakin's family helps bring balance to the Force then Anakin is still the Chosen One.
The TLJ visual dictionary says he is still
I mean, you don't have to argue it, since they basically admit to it outright.
i gues someone brought up the dictionary for TLJ so the prophecy is still valid
""Snoke is powerful in the dark side of the Force, but he is not Sith," writes the Dictionary. "That thousand-year lineage streteching from Darth Bane to the last Sith Lord, Darth Vader, was undone when Vader died destroying his mentor, Darth Sidious. The fulfillment of an ancient prophecy foretold the end of the Sith, but it never predicted the end of darkness."
""Snoke is powerful in the dark side of the Force, but he is not Sith," writes the Dictionary. "That thousand-year lineage streteching from Darth Bane to the last Sith Lord, Darth Vader, was undone when Vader died destroying his mentor, Darth Sidious. The fulfillment of an ancient prophecy foretold the end of the Sith, but it never predicted the end of darkness."
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He becomes a Jedi because he didn't give into his anger and avoided the dark side.
Yoda warned him that anger is a tool of the emperor
There's a certain irony in that the Jedi were in power for a thousand years and ultimately failed while the Sith were in hiding for a thousand years and ultimately succeeded.
I still think Anakin did exactly what the prophecy said he would do, but as Yoda said the prophecy had been misread. The Jedi thought Anakin would destroy the Sith and the Sith thought he would destroy the Jedi - but, in the end, he destroyed both.
That's what bringing balance to the Force means. It's just the Jedi never saw it as anything more than they were right and the Sith were wrong, therefore bringing balance to the Force must mean destroying the Sith.
Back in the day the plan was for Ben to kill Vader. That failed, and many years later they're in a position where they're still sticking to that plan. They knew the twins were their only hope. Even Palps knew Luke was a danger.
Imagine if Ben took that extra minute to finish the job. We have no Vader, but we do have a new apprentice that still needs killing. That Vader is Luke's father doesn't change what has to happen, in the eyes of Yoda and Ben.
Imagine if Ben took that extra minute to finish the job. We have no Vader, but we do have a new apprentice that still needs killing. That Vader is Luke's father doesn't change what has to happen, in the eyes of Yoda and Ben.
Ah, yeah, that theory makes so much more sense when you remember that Vader revealed that he was Luke's dad after he'd battered him, chopped off his hand and disarmed him!
I do not think Yoda and Oni-Wan wanted Luke to kill Vader. I believe they wanted Luke to confront to Vader in Hope's that Anakin would redeem himself. He died as Anakin, not Vader.
Yes. They did. Here's a little secret I've learned about about Yoda and ObiWan: They fucking suck at their jobs. More Yoda than Obi though. Yoda really doesn't know what's going on.
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Anakin looks like a such a creepy asshole in that group shot. If he returns as a ghost for TROS I hope Abrams gets a better look out of him.
No they didn't. They only tell Luke to "face Vader". Luke is the one assuming that means killing him, but in the end he understood what he's meant to do.
That said, he did kill Vader from a certain point of view... by bringing Anakin back to the light.
That said, he did kill Vader from a certain point of view... by bringing Anakin back to the light.
Yoda is a cold ass killer.
Those stormtroopers deserved to die for being dumb asses. "Hey man, the Jedi that seems to be the king of Jedis. Let's you and me go try to kill him lmao!"
What you DON'T know is they were actually about to kneel down and quietly tell him he was in danger and they were going to escort him away from the others to avoid suspicion, but then Yoda got paranoid and jumped them.
I mean, if they wanted to kill him, they'd have just shot him in the back from a safe distance away like the stormtroopers did to all the other Jedi.
Yoda is a tiny green monster.
Yes, but he does something that even Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't think was possible, he gave up the chance to kill Vader and instead gave the man inside the chance to do something good. It's more than just he didn't kill Vader out of anger, it's that he decided to let Vader live and appeal to his hidden humanity instead.
Oh he knew. He was just, like every other Jedi, way too eager to brush off responsibility. When he found out about Luke, he basically accepted defeat and chose to instead hide out until Luke came to him. The Force willed it or some crap like that.
All the Jedi were like that. When the Council turned on Ahsoka and refused to back her up against the accusations she blew up the Jedi Temple, Anakin was literally the only person who stood by her side. The rest, even Obi-Wan, just left her to it and when she and Anakin cleared her name, the Jedi Council was just all "it was the will of the Force".
The whole lot of them were arseholes. It's no wonder Anakin turned to the dark side. At least Palpatine was competent. Whenever he was with the Jedi it was like...
The thing that always gets me about it is that those wookies just saw Yoda literally cut the heads off of two people who moments ago were helping them fight a war. You'd think they would run screaming from the room as fast as possible. Instead they just help the murderer flee the scene of the crime with zero explanation.
There's also the theory that Luke was bait.
They let him keep his own name, and left him with Anakins family... like Vader wasn't going to bloody notice? especially when Luke submitted an application to join the Imperial Flight Academy.
After Obi-Wan died, I don't think they felt they had an alternative.
They let him keep his own name, and left him with Anakins family... like Vader wasn't going to bloody notice? especially when Luke submitted an application to join the Imperial Flight Academy.
After Obi-Wan died, I don't think they felt they had an alternative.
"I changed my name from Obi-Wan Kenobi to... Ben Kenobi. And I gave Luke Skywalker, the son of Anakin Skywalker, to the Skywalker family who live in the exact same spot Anakin has visited before. My plan to lay low and keep a low profile is working out brilliantly..."
Yeah, but he wouldn't have fallen to the dark side. But all of this incongruity happens because in between the first and second movies Lucas decided to make Vader Luke's father. Obi-Wan wasn't lying in A New Hope when he said that Vader killed Anakin. They were literally different people in the script. Redeeming Vader was never an option.
Garbage. The Jedi were peacekeepers for thousands of years. THOUSANDS. Being outplayed and forced on their hindlegs by the sith for a while doesn't define their entire existence. Sheev outplayed an entire galaxy of power players from the senate to the footsoldiers to the Jedi. No one could see what was happening.
Garbage. The Jedi were peacekeepers for thousands of years. THOUSANDS. Being outplayed and forced on their hindlegs by the sith for a while doesn't define their entire existence. Sheev outplayed an entire galaxy of power players from the senate to the footsoldiers to the Jedi. No one could see what was happening.
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The biggest plothole is Luke didn't even need to go face Vader and Sheev. Lando and the others would have destroyed the Death Start regardless!
Hell, Obi-Wan killed Maul (though that didn't stick, even in canon).
As long as you're fighting defensively, either in the direct sense or to defend some good thing, like Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon drawing Maul off from counterattacking Padme and her commandos, then it's "fine" as long as you don't succumb to anger during the fight itself.
I agree that Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't see redemption as an option. What's interesting is that the sequel trilogy is yet to build on this angle and the series has not yet presented any further evidence against Yoda's "forever will it dominate your destiny" lines from Eps V and VI.
Of course, out-of-universe it would also be kind of cheap if Ben/Kylo *also* got redeemed because he's different than Vader, while Vader was ruined from the jump in the OT, Ben's given ample chances to turn aside and keeps deliberately leaning further in instead. But with Sheev back in the mix there may be some higher purpose there.
Concepts like balancing the force and chosen ones are stupid, in general. Really wish Star Wars had avoided those directions.
Jedi are not very smart, to be honest.
I think this line is so misunderstood and taken out of context. Obi-Wan's nickname is 'The Negotiator". This line came after Anakin's "If you're not with me, you're my enemy.' It was solely a response to Anakin's offer leaving no room for compromise. He was literally dealing in absolutes. The line was never meant to sum up the entire philosophy of the Jedi or Sith. It's not a contradiction to 'do or do not'.