Did Yoda and Obi-Wan want Luke to kill Vader?

Deleted member 21339 · Sep 20, 2019

If he followed their advice wouldn't he have fallen to the Dark Side?

When Obi-Wan hears Luke say, "I can't kill my own father." Ben responds, "Then the emperor has already won. You were our only hope."

Isn't he bemoaning the fact that Luke is not up to the challenge of putting down Vader?

Yoda and Ben really were terrible teachers.

Shy · Sep 20, 2019

Yes.

And you could also argue the fact, it's why they didn't want to tell him that Vader was his dad, for that very reason.

sphagnum · Sep 20, 2019

Well, Yoda wanted Leia to do it, but that's a book thing.

Deleted member 29660 · Sep 20, 2019

Yup. The thought of redeeming him wasn't on their minds. "He's more machine than man now" was what Obi Wan said while a force ghost. He was a man to be taken out, much like the Emperor.

Deleted member 21339 · Sep 20, 2019

sphagnum said:
Well, Yoda wanted Leia to do it, but that's a book thing.

Why Leia and not Luke lol

sphagnum · Sep 20, 2019

JB1981 said:
Why Leia and not Luke lol

Yoda thought Leia was the one destined to be his apprentice because she's, you know, smart.

Druffmaul · Sep 20, 2019

I... think it's possible to kill without "falling to the Dark Side." It would depend on why/how you kill, what state you're in. If you're killing out of hate, passion, etc. that's dark side shit. If you're killing for the good of the galaxy, maybe not so dark.

TheChungusAmongUs · Sep 20, 2019

I was always under the impression Obi wan and Yoda thought after Anakin joined the Dark Side, they were wrong about the prophecy of him being the chosen one and instead began to believe Luke was.

sphagnum · Sep 20, 2019

Sjay1994 said:
I was always under the impression Obi wan and Yoda thought after Anakin joined the Dark Side, they were wrong about the prophecy of him being the chosen one and instead began to believe Luke was.

Yeah, Obi-Wan flat out tells Maul in Rebels that Luke is the Chosen One.

But the overall point is to show that they're still in the old Jedi mindset. Anakin fell because of attachment and emotions, we need to stop Luke from doing the same thing. They can't yet understand that the path to victory is through embracing love. To them, Anakin is dead. Vader is a monster, more machine than man, and can't be redeemed. Luke, in contrast, rejects this and forges a new path.

BossAttack · Sep 20, 2019

Yes.

It also proved why Luke was the proper Return of the Jedi because he resisted those old farts teachings which led to the failure of the past Jedi. Then TFA shat on all of that.

RedMercury · Sep 20, 2019

Druffmaul said:
I... think it's possible to kill without "falling to the Dark Side." It would depend on why/how you kill, what state you're in. If you're killing out of hate, passion, etc. that's dark side shit. If you're killing for the good of the galaxy, maybe not so dark.

Obi-Wan for all intents and purposes tried to kill Anakin, he shouldn't have survived that ordeal and he didn't turn to the dark side

Bakercat · Sep 20, 2019

Yes, but in their defense everything else had failed and the jedi was almost dead, so an exception should be made.

Probably would of made more sense to say to end the emperor himself, but character arc and all.

Megatron · Sep 20, 2019

sphagnum said:
Yoda thought Leia was the one destined to be his apprentice because she's, you know, smart.

Is she? She was shocked when Tarkin lied to her and blew up Alderaan anyway.

Shy · Sep 20, 2019

sphagnum said:
Yeah, Obi-Wan flat out tells Maul in Rebels that Luke is the Chosen One.

But the overall point is to show that they're still in the old Jedi mindset. Anakin fell because of attachment and emotions, we need to stop Luke from doing the same thing. They can't yet understand that the path to victory is through embracing love. To them, Anakin is dead. Vader is a monster, more machine than man, and can't be redeemed. Luke, in contrast, rejects this and forges a new path.

And that's my problem with putting in young force ghost Anakin into ROTJ (and imo, the worst addition of all the SE) Because it makes Anakin symbolic death a literal one. Making they're point of view true.

Hyun Sai · Sep 20, 2019

If killing someone was enough to fall toward the Dark side, oh boy...

Deleted member 21339 · Sep 20, 2019

Druffmaul said:
I... think it's possible to kill without "falling to the Dark Side." It would depend on why/how you kill, what state you're in. If you're killing out of hate, passion, etc. that's dark side shit. If you're killing for the good of the galaxy, maybe not so dark.

I agree. But in this specific scenario Ben tells him to bury his feelings because he knows the emperor will use them against him.

Which actually is sound advice because Luke's emotions come incredibly close to getting the best of him ... he teeters right on the edge

Deleted member 21339 · Sep 20, 2019

sphagnum said:
Yeah, Obi-Wan flat out tells Maul in Rebels that Luke is the Chosen One.

But the overall point is to show that they're still in the old Jedi mindset. Anakin fell because of attachment and emotions, we need to stop Luke from doing the same thing. They can't yet understand that the path to victory is through embracing love. To them, Anakin is dead. Vader is a monster, more machine than man, and can't be redeemed. Luke, in contrast, rejects this and forges a new path.

So who is the Chosen One, canonically? Anakin or Luke?

Also, the Chosen One retcon is stupid

sphagnum · Sep 20, 2019

Megatron said:
Is she? She was shocked when Tarkin lied to her and blew up Alderaan anyway.

He blew up a central core world planet, and it was the first time such a thing had ever been done. And he did it on the fly without even contacting Palpatine.

It was a pretty shocking thing to do!

JB1981 said:
So who is the Chosen One, canonically? Anakin or Luke?

Also, the Chosen One retcon is stupid

Anakin.

Hero_of_the_Day · Sep 20, 2019

Hyun Sai said:
If killing someone was enough to fall toward the Dark side, oh boy...

Yoda is a cold ass killer.

Druffmaul · Sep 20, 2019

JB1981 said:
I agree. But in this specific scenario Ben tells him to bury his feelings because he knows the emperor will use them against him.

Which actually is sound advice because Luke's emotions come incredibly close to getting the best of him ... he teeters right on the edge

Ben gave Luke that advice for exactly the reason I described.

Doggg · Sep 20, 2019

Yes. Their hope was not that Luke would turn Vader from the Dark Side, as they gave up on him a long time ago.

Deleted member 21339 · Sep 20, 2019

Hyun Sai said:
If killing someone was enough to fall toward the Dark side, oh boy...

I kinda didn't mean that. I meant knowing the situation Luke was getting himself into

Deleted member 11039 · Sep 20, 2019

Killing someone doesn't mean you fall to dark side, but yes they wanted him to end Vader.

That's what makes using Luke as a stand in for the old Jedi really goofy in TLJ. Luke did it his own way and was proven right. He was a new era Jedi.

Hyun Sai · Sep 20, 2019

JB1981 said:
I kinda didn't mean that. I meant knowing the situation Luke was getting himself into

Yeah, I see what you mean now.

El Bombastico · Sep 20, 2019

Obi-wan and Yoda were out of options. Anakin had turned and they believed him irredeemable. They couldn't risk leaving their hiding spots and looking for other kids to train. Luke was really their only shot at taking Vader and Sheev down.

Deleted member 21339 · Sep 20, 2019

Bragg said:
Killing someone doesn't mean you fall to dark side, but yes they wanted him to end Vader.

That's what makes using Luke as a stand in for the old Jedi really goofy in TLJ. Luke did it his own way and was proven right. He was a new era Jedi.

I really don't think that interpretation holds much weight. Luke just believed in his father's goodness. It wasn't meant as a commentary on flawed Jedi dogma.

And I don't think the title of the movie is The Return of the Jedi As They Should Have Been.

It just means Anakin returns to his old self and the Jedi Order will live on through his son.

Burrman · Sep 20, 2019

Yes. I'm not sure they would want that in other scenarios, but they seen Luke as the last only hope. Sort of like Mace on Sheev

Megatron · Sep 20, 2019

sphagnum said:
He blew up a central core world planet, and it was the first time such a thing had ever been done. And he did it on the fly without even contacting Palpatine.

It was a pretty shocking thing to do!

Anakin.

No, as soon as she gives him the information he says he's going to blow up Alderaan anyway and then she freaks out -before he does it. And he tells her 'you're far too trusting'

Lord Fagan · Sep 20, 2019

Much of Star Wars is about space wizards wanting to predict the future and understand destinyyyyyy...while also behaving as if choice matters in that equation.

Kill or not kill, Yoda and Obi-wan were essentially just hoping the kid could clean up their mess. Of course, because of destinyyyyyy (and necessary sequels in the name of continued merchandising) none of it really mattered and Luke fucked it up anyway because of another kid obsessed with family history and something something let the past die.

It's not a bible story. It's a pulp space fantasy made to sell toys, OP.

Deleted member 21339 · Sep 20, 2019

Lord Fagan said:
Much of Star Wars is about space wizards wanting to predict the future and understand destinyyyyyy...while also behaving as if choice matters in that equation.

Kill or not kill, Yoda and Obi-wan were essentially just hoping the kid could clean up their mess. Of course, because of destinyyyyyy (and necessary sequels in the name of continued merchandising) none of it really mattered and Luke fucked it up anyway because of another kid obsessed with family history and something something let the past die.

It's not a bible story. It's a pulp space fantasy made to sell toys, OP.

Ok

Lunar Wolf · Sep 20, 2019

Shy said:
And that's my problem with putting in young force ghost Anakin into ROTJ (and imo, the worst addition of all the SE) Because it makes Anakin symbolic death a literal one. Making they're point of view true.

Maybe Anakin just prefers to look as he did before he murdered the Jedi.

If he could regrow hair and limbs then there's no reason why he can't look young.

Also you're actually supposed to watch Star Wars chronologically according to Lucas so you'll have more of a reaction seeing young Anakin there at the end.

Lunar Wolf · Sep 20, 2019

JB1981 said:
So who is the Chosen One, canonically? Anakin or Luke?

Also, the Chosen One retcon is stupid

Anakin Skywalker. Confirmed by the TLJ visual dictionary and the Clone Wars show as well as George Lucas.

Luke just helped his dad realize his destiny.

sphagnum · Sep 20, 2019

Megatron said:
No, as soon as she gives him the information he says he's going to blow up Alderaan anyway and then she freaks out -before he does it. And he tells her 'you're far too trusting'

Yeah, I'm not seeing how that contradicts anything I said. His move was totally irrational.

Megatron · Sep 20, 2019

sphagnum said:
Yeah, I'm not seeing how that contradicts anything I said. His move was totally irrational.

She's shocked that he lied to her. He said 'tell me where the rebel base is and I will leave Alderaan alone' so she does and he says he lied and he's doing it anyway.

That's why I questioned her intelligence. You kind of should expect the bad guy to lie to you not be surprised when he does.

Siggy-P · Sep 20, 2019

The Jedi aren't agaisnt killing, they're agaisnt killing in anger or vengeance.

echoshifting · Sep 20, 2019

Lord Fagan said:
It's a pulp space fantasy made to sell toys, OP.

Every star wars thread

sphagnum · Sep 20, 2019

Megatron said:
She's shocked that he lied to her. He said 'tell me where the rebel base is and I will leave Alderaan alone' so she does and he says he lied and he's doing it anyway.

And I think it's logical for her to be surprised that he is going to just blow up Alderaan anyway. He's an "honorable" by-the-books military/government man and Alderaan is a major core world. It would be like nuking NYC or London. He hadn't even verified that Dantooine wasn't the Rebel base yet - as far as he knew, he got what he wanted (he told her that they were blowing up Alderaan as a demonstration because Dantooine was too remote, not because she had lied about it).

Destroying Alderaan was an insane move. Of course she'd be shocked.

Mona · Sep 20, 2019

yes, they wanted vader dead

and then they hanged with him like it was all cool at the end of ROTJ

Deleted member 11039 · Sep 20, 2019

JB1981 said:
I really don't think that interpretation holds much weight. Luke just believed in his father's goodness. It wasn't meant as a commentary on flawed Jedi dogma.

And I don't think the title of the movie is The Return of the Jedi As They Should Have Been.

It just means Anakin returns to his old self and the Jedi Order will live on through his son.

It's not as spelled out as the prequels but there's still stuff about a Jedi being essentially emotionless in the OT. Yoda tells Luke to sacrifice his friends and only the most disciplined of Jedi would be able to defeat Vader and the Emperor. But he was wrong. Yoda was wise and right about a lot. Not giving into hate, etc. But Luke's not some super Jedi at the end of RotJ. He's no match for the Emperor. But his faith wins the day.

Just believing in his father's goodness is a big deal. Neither Obi Wan or Yoda share that view and at the time are the only representatives of the Jedi way we know.

Keldroc · Sep 20, 2019

Shy said:
And that's my problem with putting in young force ghost Anakin into ROTJ (and imo, the worst addition of all the SE) Because it makes Anakin symbolic death a literal one. Making they're point of view true.

No, that's purely because the character is identified with that actor out of the armor, so you use that actor to communicate to the audience that he's been saved. It makes more sense to use Hayden for that than to suddenly have some old guy there, especially when that old guy is...:checks notes:...40 years older than the character is supposed to be at his time of death. It's a combination of intelligent cinematic shorthand and Lucas' stupid prequel timeline retcons mucking things up when you try to put the two trilogies together.

Jarmel · Sep 20, 2019

Mona said:
yes, they wanted vader dead

and then they hanged with him like it was all cool at the end of ROTJ

lol I never really thought about this

"Yea man you killed a bunch of kids, nearly wiped out our order, killed me personally, and let a maniac run the galaxy. But you did good in those last five minutes so all is forgiven."

Shy · Sep 20, 2019

The Gunslinger said:
Maybe Anakin just prefers to look as he did before he murdered the Jedi.

If he could regrow hair and limbs then there's no reason why he can't look young.

Also you're actually supposed to watch Star Wars chronologically according to Lucas so you'll have more of a reaction seeing young Anakin there at the end.

Nah. GL said in the commentary for ROTJ saying as such.

Which is a shame, as it completely undermines Anakin entire redemption.

Keldroc said:
No, that's purely because the character is identified with that actor out of the armor, so you use that actor to communicate to the audience that he's been saved. It makes more sense to use Hayden for that than to suddenly have some old guy there, especially when that old guy is...:checks notes:...40 years older than the character is supposed to be at his time of death. It's a combination of intelligent cinematic shorthand and Lucas' stupid prequel timeline retcons mucking things up when you try to put the two trilogies together.

There's never been a problem telling that was Anakin at the end. Even after the prequels came out.

Also, please see my post above.

Deleted member 21339 · Sep 20, 2019

Bragg said:
It's not as spelled out as the prequels but there's still stuff about a Jedi being essentially emotionless in the OT. Yoda tells Luke to sacrifice his friends and only the most disciplined of Jedi would be able to defeat Vader and the Emperor. But he was wrong. Yoda was wise and right about a lot. Not giving into hate, etc. But Luke's not some super Jedi at the end of RotJ. He's no match for the Emperor. But his faith wins the day.

Just believing in his father's goodness is a big deal. Neither Obi Wan or Yoda share that view and at the time are the only representatives of the Jedi way we know.

Yoda was kinda right about Luke leaving for his friends tho no? Luke wasn't ready to take on Vader and he wasn't ready to face the truth. He jumped to his death and just got lucky his sister was there to bail him out.

Luke believed in Vader's inherent goodness because he was his father.

I don't think that kind of personal love would translate into blanket changes in Jedi ethos.

Deleted member 21339 · Sep 20, 2019

Mona said:
yes, they wanted vader dead

and then they hanged with him like it was all cool at the end of ROTJ

Lol

weemadarthur · Sep 20, 2019

Megatron said:
No, as soon as she gives him the information he says he's going to blow up Alderaan anyway and then she freaks out -before he does it. And he tells her 'you're far too trusting'

She was smart enough to lie to him with the info she gave, in the hope that he wouldn't be quite that big a sociopath. You know she's the embodiment of pointless hope, right?

ParanormalFupa · Sep 20, 2019

Stopped or defeated but Yoda and Obi-Wan would have known that he wouldn't be dead dead.

Surfinn · Sep 20, 2019

Yes, they all but literally say it. Neither of them actually believed Vader could be redeemed

sphagnum said:
Well, Yoda wanted Leia to do it, but that's a book thing.

This is why I don't do book things

thewienke · Sep 20, 2019

If the Emperor was Space Hitler then Vader was basically Space Himmler.

Like, hell yeah they wanted him dead.

Masterspeed · Sep 20, 2019

Pretty much. Deep down I always think Vader told Luke he was his father was jsut to sway him away from killing him.

I'd pull the dad card too if some kid was trying to murder me.

Seductivpancakes · Sep 20, 2019

Mona said:
yes, they wanted vader dead

and then they hanged with him like it was all cool at the end of ROTJ

They missed their homie Anakin and wanted him to hangout with him.

Did Yoda and Obi-Wan want Luke to kill Vader?

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