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Did Mace Windu beat Sheev, or did he throw the fight?

  • Mace won

    Votes: 335 53.7%
  • Palpatine was playing possum

    Votes: 289 46.3%

  • Total voters
    624

Bor Gullet

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,399
This has been a longtime debate with Star Wars fans for years. The ROTS making of book states that George Lucas purposefully wanted the scene to be ambiguous. According to the actor Ian Mcdiarmid, Sheev threw the fight to set up Anakin's turn. Lucas added during the ROTS commentary that Mace overpowered Palpatine but that he was "feigning weakness."

 

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
Palpatine threw the fight to get Anakin to turn against the Jedi. That's why he suddenly gets his strength back as soon as Anakin attacks Mace.
 

Hamchan

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,966
I believe that Samuel L Jackson is just that badass and that Mace legit won.
 

Anth0ny

Member
Oct 25, 2017
46,997
i7x3cqxo2w9415qk2d.jpg


does that face look like a liar to you??
 

MrPink

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,300
Have a hard time believe Palpatine would so willingly throw the fight to end up with that forehead.
 

sfedai0

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,951
The guy zapped himself with his own lightening 3 times. Anyone thinking Sheev threw anything is giving him too much credit.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
I'm sure George intended for for to have thrown the fight.

However, the logistics of his plan to throw the fight and have Anakin show up at the exact second is insane, so the scene just makes it seem like Mace overpowered him.
 

zero_suit

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,577
Palps was losing until Anakin arrived. Pretty sure Mace was more skilled with a lightsaber.
 
Oct 27, 2017
744
New York, NY
Palpatine had to turn Anakin (or really wanted to) and his plan seemed to be do make him turn against the Jedi out of fear of losing knowledge. So realistically, I am not sure it makes sense if Palpatine DIDNT plan for it to go down the way it did. So I would have to say he threw it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,264
Real Palpatine is over on the sith homeworth. This Palpatine was a force controlled clone who was obviously much weaker than the real Palpatine, who has the power of thousands of generations of sith.

*pour drink*

There is nothing good left.
 
OP
OP
Bor Gullet

Bor Gullet

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,399
Mace won.

Sheev purposely burning his face to turn Anakin is a dumb idea.
Have a hard time believe Palpatine would so willingly throw the fight to end up with that forehead.

While it's never been explicitly confirmed, it's been said that Palpatine's monster face is actually his real face, and his Chancellor face is him simply masking his real face.

One example is from the novel

Palpatine examined the damage to his face in a broad expanse of wall mirror. Anakin couldn't tell if his expression might be revulsion, or if this were merely the new shape of his features. Palpatine lifted one tentative hand to the misshapen horror that he now saw in the mirror, then simply shrugged.

"And so the mask becomes the man," he sighed with a hint of philosophical melancholy. "I shall miss the face of Palpatine, I think; but for our purpose, the face of Sidious will serve. Yes, it will serve."


TROS also supports this.
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
He is absolutely feigning defeat specifically to get anakin to save him, attack Mace and jam himself in a permanent sith-hole. I'm not sure how McDiarmid could have hammed that any hammer. John Hamm and Armie Hammer couldn't have combined their power at a Hamtramck Honey Baked Easter buffet and hammed it more hamly.
 

Burly

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,075
"Oh please help me Anakin I'm so weak..."

*10 seconds later*

"UNLIMITED POWAAAAAAAAAA!!!"
 

Anth0ny

Member
Oct 25, 2017
46,997
I'm sure George intended for for to have thrown the fight.

However, the logistics of his plan to throw the fight and have Anakin show up at the exact second is insane, so the scene just makes it seem like Mace overpowered him.

he used the force to make it all happen

he foresaw it all
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,030
That fact that Mace got thrown out the Windu with such force should show that he was faking it to gather sympathy from Anakin.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,157
He is absolutely feigning defeat specifically to get anakin to save him, attack Mace and jam himself in a permanent sith-hole. I'm not sure how McDiarmid could have hammed that any hammer. John Hamm and Armie Hammer couldn't have combined their power at a Hamtramck Honey Baked Easter buffet and hammed it more hamly.
he needed to say JUST KIDDING
 
Oct 30, 2017
3,629
That fact that Mace got thrown out the Windu with such force should show that he was faking it to gather sympathy from Anakin.

Oh, he was faking it alright because Mace whopped his ass having the advantage, his lighting force powers didn't do jack to Mace in a one on one lightsaber fight, so it took his vulnerability act to get little bitch Anakin to slice his hands off to really attack him with it.
 

Keldroc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,984
Mace beat him saber-to-saber, but Palpatine could have nailed him and gotten out of the situation if he wanted to. He didn't want to, because Anakin came in right then and Palpatine knew it was his chance to force a choice between doing the right thing and saving Padme, and he was certain which one Anakin would choose. Granted he's lucky Mace did the big "please do not cut my hand off while I do this" windup swing rather than just stabbing him through the face with the instant-cutting lasersword that probably doesn't really need to be swung like a baseball bat to kill someone but hey, nobody's perfect.

Hmm...windup. Windu...

Lucas, you cunning bastard!
 

Heynongman!

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,928
Mace Windu was supposedly the best warrior at the time, right? Palpatine wasn't a skilled swordsman. Windu bested him, then got distracted by Anakin.
 

grand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,972
Both. Mace would've 100% won the actual fight so Palpatine was acting extra weak to manipulate Anakin. This isn't an either or situation, though it does show how much Palpatine was gambling on Anakin.
 

Replicant

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
MN
Mace beat him straight up. Palps knew Anakin would show however.
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
Mace Windu was supposedly the best warrior at the time, right? Palpatine wasn't a skilled swordsman. Windu bested him, then got distracted by Anakin.

Palpatine being unaware that the most powerful force vehicle n the galaxy was coming down the hall is even less likely than Palpatine's tailored guns.

hT7xM0A.png
 

BassForever

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,933
CT
Palpatine is so strong with the force he was able to cloud the judgement of the Jedi for years without being sniffed out. We also know Anakin has an insanely powerful force that that the other Jedi can instantly feel when near him which is why they thought he was dangerous even as a child.

It's very believable that once Palpatine sensed Anakin was near, he threw the fight to put himself in a situation that would feed into Anakin's doubts. We've never actually seen anyone beat Palpatine in a one on one fight, Yoda loses, Luke loses until Darth Vader betrays Palpatine, and Rey and Ben have to work together to defeat him. So either Mace is even stronger then Yoda and had the worst luck/timing in the world, or Palpatine threw the fight.
 

UntoldDreams

Member
May 24, 2018
71
The fight wasn't over really. I think we are seeing a Premature fight throwing by Palpatine because it wasn't to his advantage to get into a long fight at this time. I think if they really went at it they would end up in a much bigger fight like Yoda had since Mace is clearly at top tier among the Jedi. This means Palpatine was probably calculating how best to handle this situation without wrecking everything. Imagine if Palpatine had to get into a REAL DRAG DOWN YODA level fight in the senate building at that point in the story?

He would look like a zombie flying around the hallways shooting lightning while Mace is cutting up everything with a purple lightsaber around him. It would be pretty terrible looking and expose him to everyone in the senate across the galaxy.

Now could Mace actually beat Palpatine? Maybe on a good day but not decidedly so... Regardless this wouldn't help Palpatine to fight it out. If he did this he would have to hope Yoda isn't also nearby. Mace + yoda combined I would think could really beat Palpatine and any dragged out fight would surely bring in other Jedi.

So he did throw the fight because it wasn't in his interest.
 

Kard8p3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,271
Mace Windu was supposedly the best warrior at the time, right? Palpatine wasn't a skilled swordsman. Windu bested him, then got distracted by Anakin.


Sidious is incredibly skilled.


hell, in the book, Palps had an audio recording to make himself seem weak and vulnerable and to pass the jedi off as terrible people abusing their power.

also Kit Fisto got robbed. He's (next to Mace) is one of the best warriors in the order and he got taken out like a punk :/
 

Obsonet

Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,902
Palpatine threw the fight.
Maybe Mace would have won if he didn't, but when Palpatine sensed Anakin approaching he threw it.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,435
It fits the story more that Palps threw the fight. He's the devil, pure evil and I don't believe that vulnerable, human side.
 

night814

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 29, 2017
15,040
Pennsylvania
Sidious is incredibly skilled.


hell, in the book, Palps had an audio recording to make himself seem weak and vulnerable and to pass the jedi off as terrible people abusing their power.

also Kit Fisto got robbed. He's (next to Mace) is one of the best warriors in the order and he got taken out like a punk :/

I'll never forgive them for killing Fisto like that, Windu atleast got to put up a fight.
 

grand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,972
People who think Palpatine could've beat Mindu are missing the point. The scene was Lucas's (horribly written) attempt at contrasting the scene to the ending of Episode VI

Palpatine let's Windy & a bunch of Jedi rush him at the capital after he intentionally outs himself to the heroes. And despite how bad of an idea that obviously is, he goes ahead because he's that over-confident in his manipulation of Anakin

Then, in Return of the Jedi, Palpatine intentionally outs himself, to lure in Luke & the Rebel army to blow up his half finished space station. And then he goes there personally, after leaking the plans, despite how bad of an idea that obviously is. So he gets in the same situation as decades ago where he's manipulating Vader and playing father against son. Only Luke (unlike Mindu) refused to keep fighting and Vader (unlike Anakin) learned a goddamn lesson for once, resulting in the entire situation backfiring on Palpatine.

Both Windu & Vader had the power to kill Palpatine in those scenarios. And in both scenarios, Palpatine was over-confident like every Sith. The contrast was intentional, Lucas is just too bad of a writer to convey it without his ex-wife as an editor or a better director.

And yes, this is reason #142 on why TROS is disappointing.
 
Oct 17, 2018
1,779
Didn't George Lucas confirm that Mace would have won?

While I think that Mace would have won if the fight had continued without interruption, I think that Palpatine threw the fight on purpose when he did because he obviously sensed Anakin coming.