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Dolce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,235
CT's tone is that of a saturday morning cartoon. Bad things happen but the party's works to make things make and the overall message is uplifting. The future is bad? Let's change it. Crono dies? Let's save him. Lucca's mom is on a wheelchair? Let's prevent that from happening. TT is pretty much always used to make things better and fix things, the game is not interested in making you feel bad for your actions.

I don't think that's true at all, Chrono Trigger to me was always early 90s Japanese edge aimed at the teenage audience. One of the big scenes with Lucca's mom is literally watching the entire event unfold, which is really dark within context. You also have the very edgey boss design, literally watching the world end multiple times, the dark apocalyptic future and all kinds of other stuff. It never came off as Saturday morning cartoon to me. Compared to more modern stuff you might say it's less edgey but I think very much for its time it was 100% meant to be a darker game. It's not a coincidence that the other parts of the series are pretty dark, too.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,237
I think "what if it didn't work out" is one of the most tantalizing questions in fiction, and on its own merits it's a fantastic place to start a concept for a sequel.

It's clear that Chrono Trigger wasn't at all interested in the ramifications of time travel, and that it was a vehicle to send the gang on an epic quest with lots of varied locales and interesting characters. Time travel was fun and that's all it really had to be.

Cross decided to examine (I am loathe to use that often abused term "deconstruct") these ideas, that every action has a consequence and Crono really was mucking with something beyond his control. Time travel isn't fun in Cross, it's horrifying and destructive at best.

There's no clear answer as to which is better or the appropriately realized vision of what time travel should be: the fact of the matter is that Trigger and Cross had different ideas and themes they wanted to get across and tailored their stories accordingly. If I were the kind of person who gets super mad about canon and lore without regard for what these stories are trying to convey then yeah, the idea that my rollicking time travel adventure ended up dooming entire timelines to a fate worse than death is a bummer, but the easy out to that I don't have to care. Stories aren't windows into a fully formed, autonomous universe, they're the means by which artists try to convey their message, and I can choose what I want to take from them.
This is about where I'm at.

As a what if story, CC has cool ideas even if it stumbles over its own feet to get there. And ultimately I view it as that, a what if story, and I'm glad it works for others.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,372
CT's tone is that of a saturday morning cartoon. Bad things happen but the party's works to make things make and the overall message is uplifting. The future is bad? Let's change it. Crono dies? Let's save him. Lucca's mom is on a wheelchair? Let's prevent that from happening. TT is pretty much always used to make things better and fix things, the game is not interested in making you feel bad for your actions.

I don't think that's true at all, Chrono Trigger to me was always early 90s Japanese edge aimed at the teenage audience. One of the big scenes with Lucca's mom is literally watching the entire event unfold, which is really dark within context. You also have the very edgey boss design, literally watching the world end multiple times, the dark apocalyptic future and all kinds of other stuff. It never came off as Saturday morning cartoon to me. Compared to more modern stuff you might say it's less edgey but I think very much for its time it was 100% meant to be a darker game. It's not a coincidence that the other parts of the series are pretty dark, too.

Saturday Morning cartoon is a bad comparison since it's done exclusively from an American point of view. Rather than that, Chrono Trigger was basically a Shounen anime. There are cruel and brutal elements at points, but at the end of the day heroic resolve and unity leads to victory.

That said, I don't think Chrono Cross is any different, which is actually why I dislike how Cross handles Chrono's plot points. Crono's crew travels blindingly through time while meeting the people who supposedly know what's going on, and are helped by a mysterious entity which is implied to be the planet itself. In Trigger, this leads to a complete good ending where the future is saved and in spite of that the future people aren't erased and just exist in the new future. According to Cross, however, they just messed with time and although it saved their future they created a lost one which eventually led to tragedy even in their own world... but Serge going in the same blind adventure somehow is supposed to be a good thing and actually solve the problems for real?

It doesn't make sense thematically. Pointing out Trigger's problems only would work if Cross' protagonists were starting from a completely different point like if the heroes were professionals from some future organization overseeing the timelines - in a context like that then it could make thematic sense to call out the actions of amateurs. But, nope. Cross basically tells the player that the old group of plucky heroes unwillingly created trouble, but this time the whole plucky hero thing will actually work out.
 
Saturday Morning cartoon is a bad comparison since it's done exclusively from an American point of view. Rather than that, Chrono Trigger was basically a Shounen anime. There are cruel and brutal elements at points, but at the end of the day heroic resolve and unity leads to victory.

That said, I don't think Chrono Cross is any different, which is actually why I dislike how Cross handles Chrono's plot points. Crono's crew travels blindingly through time while meeting the people who supposedly know what's going on, and are helped by a mysterious entity which is implied to be the planet itself. In Trigger, this leads to a complete good ending where the future is saved and in spite of that the future people aren't erased and just exist in the new future. According to Cross, however, they just messed with time and although it saved their future they created a lost one which eventually led to tragedy even in their own world... but Serge going in the same blind adventure somehow is supposed to be a good thing and actually solve the problems for real?

It doesn't make sense thematically. Pointing out Trigger's problems only would work if Cross' protagonists were starting from a completely different point like if the heroes were professionals from some future organization overseeing the timelines - in a context like that then it could make thematic sense to call out the actions of amateurs. But, nope. Cross basically tells the player that the old group of plucky heroes unwillingly created trouble, but this time the whole plucky hero thing will actually work out.
I think if we would have gotten a sequel, this would have possibly be expound upon. "Nope! Just made things worse!"
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
This is about where I'm at.

As a what if story, CC has cool ideas even if it stumbles over its own feet to get there. And ultimately I view it as that, a what if story, and I'm glad it works for others.

Like here, let me put it this way:

Chrono Cross is to Chrono Trigger what Final Fantasy VII is to Final Fantasy I - VI

The basic, computer generated plot of a classic Final Fantasy is "an evil empire is taking over the world, go find the crystals!" right? Obviously there are variations in there but broadly speaking you're on a fun filled quest in a fantasy land slaying bad guys. So in these games you're going around fighting the Evil Empire and their mooks and generals and loyal soldiers. They're just enemies, they exist to be defeated by the heroes so they can get a happy ending where peace is restored.

Final Fantasy VII opens the same way, with cool mercenary Cloud teaming up with the rebel group Avalanche to fight their way through enemies and blow up the insidious Mako reactors that plague the planet. If you've played any RPG, any video game really, you are already assured in your own heroism from the word go. None of it matters, just kill the bad guys.

Then a few hours later you meet Cait Sith, who explicitly spells it out to you that you're a bunch of violent domestic terrorists who exploded a reactor in a populated urban environment and definitely, deliberately killed civilians on top of all the security guards you slaughtered for experience points that work for this big corporation that runs everything. Yes the Shin-Ra company (not an empire ruled by Emperor Deathmeciatus the XIIIth, but a company run by some rich jerks that employs actual people to fill its ranks) needs to be stopped, but in Barret's effort to put a stop to them (because he suffered their actions in his hometown) he ended up taking out his anger on thousands of people who have no choice but to live in a fascist police state, and it's not that he didn't care about what he was doing, it's that he never really thought about it in the first place.

One of FFVII's core themes is in bringing to light some of the suspect realities of how RPGs work (anyone who's played the game to the end knows exactly how Cloud works into that in particular), and that made for a wonderful story. However, that doesn't retroactively mean all those old FFs and other classic RPGs were, in actuality, about sociopath murderers going on a killing spree on thinking, feeling human beings to level up and get better swords. Those stories didn't fail to properly humanize their random encounters because those stories weren't about them to begin with the way FFVII was. It's not better or lesser to examine these themes in either direction.

And that's where Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross differ. One took its story in one direction, the other in a separate one. Chrono Trigger is a fun science fantasy romp, Chrono Cross is a more moody and contemplative examination of its story mechanics whose success at that depends on individual interpretation. They're both valid examinations of the same core concept.
 

Lastdancer

Member
Nov 1, 2017
644
Before CC came out I'd just assumed she was dead. I was very surprised and terrified after learning this was not the case.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,657
Yeah that's what I always hear when CT is brought up, it's so dumb and shallow. Like it or not, changing events in one era to affect another era was very much a core mechanic that wasn't improved or expanded on, they just went somewhere else entirely. Consequently, it contributes to feeling less like a proper follow up to me personally.

It's like playing Paper Mario after playing Mario RPG. Yeah, they're both RPGs starring Mario I guess, both fun, but I don't know how much of a follow-up it is really since they don't quite scratch the same itches for me.


When Miguel finished his little speech, I was like, "No, I don't feel guilty for beating Lavos lmao. Fuck off, where's my time travel? That was an actual fun mechanic."
I only reversed the comment you made on cross's approach there. I'm a big CT fan too, I simply don't understand how ardently CT fans dog on CC.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
It's one of my favorite things about the Chrono lore that Cross introduced. :)

I'm more of a Dead Sea guy.

Chrono Cross is almost unarguably the prettiest game on the system, but the Dead Sea segment is just straight up one of the most beautifully designed areas in all of games.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,753
I'm more of a Dead Sea guy.

Chrono Cross is almost unarguably the prettiest game on the system, but the Dead Sea segment is just straight up one of the most beautifully designed areas in all of games.

That's another good one. The feeling of sadness and hopelessness. Like, you know that under the waves and rubble lie the frozen bodies of the dying humans you met in Chrono Trigger. And the maps are extremely detailed. You get a glimpse of how the life in the future looked, like the section that takes place in a shopping mall and a theater. Quite haunting.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,237
I only reversed the comment you made on cross's approach there. I'm a big CT fan too, I simply don't understand how ardently CT fans dog on CC.
I mean, people saying they don't like a game when they don't like a game really isn't that strange, haha.

CC is a bit unique though since it leaves many people feeling it's message is "the game you loved was a mistake", so it becomes something a bit harder to just ignore like with FF sequels(though we will see where FFVIIR goes, glad I'm not too invested in that one).
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
Like here, let me put it this way:

Chrono Cross is to Chrono Trigger what Final Fantasy VII is to Final Fantasy I - VI

The basic, computer generated plot of a classic Final Fantasy is "an evil empire is taking over the world, go find the crystals!" right? Obviously there are variations in there but broadly speaking you're on a fun filled quest in a fantasy land slaying bad guys. So in these games you're going around fighting the Evil Empire and their mooks and generals and loyal soldiers. They're just enemies, they exist to be defeated by the heroes so they can get a happy ending where peace is restored.

Final Fantasy VII opens the same way, with cool mercenary Cloud teaming up with the rebel group Avalanche to fight their way through enemies and blow up the insidious Mako reactors that plague the planet. If you've played any RPG, any video game really, you are already assured in your own heroism from the word go. None of it matters, just kill the bad guys.

Then a few hours later you meet Cait Sith, who explicitly spells it out to you that you're a bunch of violent domestic terrorists who exploded a reactor in a populated urban environment and definitely, deliberately killed civilians on top of all the security guards you slaughtered for experience points that work for this big corporation that runs everything. Yes the Shin-Ra company (not an empire ruled by Emperor Deathmeciatus the XIIIth, but a company run by some rich jerks that employs actual people to fill its ranks) needs to be stopped, but in Barret's effort to put a stop to them (because he suffered their actions in his hometown) he ended up taking out his anger on thousands of people who have no choice but to live in a fascist police state, and it's not that he didn't care about what he was doing, it's that he never really thought about it in the first place.

One of FFVII's core themes is in bringing to light some of the suspect realities of how RPGs work (anyone who's played the game to the end knows exactly how Cloud works into that in particular), and that made for a wonderful story. However, that doesn't retroactively mean all those old FFs and other classic RPGs were, in actuality, about sociopath murderers going on a killing spree on thinking, feeling human beings to level up and get better swords. Those stories didn't fail to properly humanize their random encounters because those stories weren't about them to begin with the way FFVII was. It's not better or lesser to examine these themes in either direction.

And that's where Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross differ. One took its story in one direction, the other in a separate one. Chrono Trigger is a fun science fantasy romp, Chrono Cross is a more moody and contemplative examination of its story mechanics whose success at that depends on individual interpretation. They're both valid examinations of the same core concept.
The problem I think is that CC is supposed to be a direct sequel. It's one thing to have a thematic contrast in an otherwise unrelated game, it's another to have your canon sequel go "you know that cast of lovable characters you grew to love and had adventures with? Yeah fuck them."
 

Weiss

User requested ban
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Oct 25, 2017
64,265
The problem I think is that CC is supposed to be a direct sequel. It's one thing to have a thematic contrast in an otherwise unrelated game, it's another to have your canon sequel go "you know that cast of lovable characters you grew to love and had adventures with? Yeah fuck them."

As Ishida loves to remind us the timey wimey shenanigans by the end of Cross almost certainly undo the deaths of the Trigger heroes (if nothing else Robo and Lucca are definitely still alive and for all we know the fall of Guardia at the hands of Porre was also part of Belthasar's plan), but I get it.

I banged on last page about the nature of stories, that fiction, even interconnected fiction, doesn't exist in a universe with its own rules, rather they are stories made at a specific point in time to impart a message. Chrono Cross would not be Chrono Cross if it didn't look at Chrono Trigger and ask "but what if this didn't work out?" and could really only exist in that specific context, because that was what Masato Kato wanted to impart. If he rewrote the story so that Crono and friends were alive and things worked out, there wouldn't be a Chrono Cross.

NeonZ put it well that, for all that Cross posits about the doomed journey of Crono, the game itself doesn't really put much effort into explaining why this one band of plucky adventurers crossed time and ruined everyone's day, but this subsequent band of plucky adventurers did it right (as an example, the scene where Serge uses the Mastermune to time travel to the burning of Lucca's orphanage and save the kids there should have sent someone to the Darkness Beyond Time, because that's how Cross told us it works, but it doesn't dwell on it). I think that this is a mechanical failure of Cross' story, but it's also a piece of how Cross was kind of always going to have that baked in resentment from Trigger fans because of how it chose to follow up a beloved story with new ideas that were not necessarily incompatible, but rather were never intended.

Chrono Cross isn't, like, Boruto or whatever, where the happy ending of the original series still happened but now there's this new thing going on with new characters. It's explicitly a story about how the past heroes failed and in a way made things worse in the long run. There's no getting around the fact that the heroes you loved from Trigger are, per Cross, responsible for dooming entire timelines because you wanted the mayor of Porre to give you the Sun Stone. If, say, Crono showed up and died heroically to help the party (and he did because actually Crono is Miguel ask me why) that would definitely still piss people off but it would be seen as a much more fitting end for this character we love, and whether or not this is a good or bad story choice for Cross to make we really tend not to see it.

I'm also not sure how to tie the fall of Guardia into this exactly, beyond that Chrono Trigger DS reveals that Dalton, who was flung through time because of the gang, was the one who spearheaded it, but there's also a point to be made about how Cross turned the fall of Crono and Marle's home into a minor footnote. This tends not to happen in sequels and at the end of a story we kind of end it assuming that everything just kind of worked out for everyone and nothing bad will happen again, because if it did then we'd get another story out of it. I think this is why we tend not to get much in the way of sequels to massive RPGs about world shaking quests, because if another one happens six months later it kind of makes you wonder why you're bothering.

The fact is that Chrono Cross told a story that was built at the expense of Chrono Trigger and that's not a dig at Cross, that's just what it wanted to do and condemned the original heroes to make that point. It does lowkey nettle me when blokes go "ugh you're just mad that Crono died get over it nerdlinger" because even apart from that being a big enough deal to annoy someone, Cross is explicitly, textually, about the failure of Crono and his friends. If that's your thing go ahead, enjoy what Chrono Cross has to offer, but it's not surprising that someone doesn't want to engage with new material that starts with a Bad End for the last game.

It's also why you've got literally zero fans of Chrono Trigger DS adding those tie-ins to Cross, because Chrono Trigger told one story, Cross told another, and Chrono Trigger DS made them awkwardly intermingle when Trigger just wanted to go watch its Dragon Ball fansubs while Cross wanted to sit in a dark room listening to experimental music.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
As Ishida loves to remind us the timey wimey shenanigans by the end of Cross almost certainly undo the deaths of the Trigger heroes (if nothing else Robo and Lucca are definitely still alive and for all we know the fall of Guardia at the hands of Porre was also part of Belthasar's plan), but I get it.

I banged on last page about the nature of stories, that fiction, even interconnected fiction, doesn't exist in a universe with its own rules, rather they are stories made at a specific point in time to impart a message. Chrono Cross would not be Chrono Cross if it didn't look at Chrono Trigger and ask "but what if this didn't work out?" and could really only exist in that specific context, because that was what Masato Kato wanted to impart. If he rewrote the story so that Crono and friends were alive and things worked out, there wouldn't be a Chrono Cross.

NeonZ put it well that, for all that Cross posits about the doomed journey of Crono, the game itself doesn't really put much effort into explaining why this one band of plucky adventurers crossed time and ruined everyone's day, but this subsequent band of plucky adventurers did it right (as an example, the scene where Serge uses the Mastermune to time travel to the burning of Lucca's orphanage and save the kids there should have sent someone to the Darkness Beyond Time, because that's how Cross told us it works, but it doesn't dwell on it). I think that this is a mechanical failure of Cross' story, but it's also a piece of how Cross was kind of always going to have that baked in resentment from Trigger fans because of how it chose to follow up a beloved story with new ideas that were not necessarily incompatible, but rather were never intended.

Chrono Cross isn't, like, Boruto or whatever, where the happy ending of the original series still happened but now there's this new thing going on with new characters. It's explicitly a story about how the past heroes failed and in a way made things worse in the long run. There's no getting around the fact that the heroes you loved from Trigger are, per Cross, responsible for dooming entire timelines because you wanted the mayor of Porre to give you the Sun Stone. If, say, Crono showed up and died heroically to help the party (and he did because actually Crono is Miguel ask me why) that would definitely still piss people off but it would be seen as a much more fitting end for this character we love, and whether or not this is a good or bad story choice for Cross to make we really tend not to see it.

I'm also not sure how to tie the fall of Guardia into this exactly, beyond that Chrono Trigger DS reveals that Dalton, who was flung through time because of the gang, was the one who spearheaded it, but there's also a point to be made about how Cross turned the fall of Crono and Marle's home into a minor footnote. This tends not to happen in sequels and at the end of a story we kind of end it assuming that everything just kind of worked out for everyone and nothing bad will happen again, because if it did then we'd get another story out of it. I think this is why we tend not to get much in the way of sequels to massive RPGs about world shaking quests, because if another one happens six months later it kind of makes you wonder why you're bothering.

The fact is that Chrono Cross told a story that was built at the expense of Chrono Trigger and that's not a dig at Cross, that's just what it wanted to do and condemned the original heroes to make that point. It does lowkey nettle me when blokes go "ugh you're just mad that Crono died get over it nerdlinger" because even apart from that being a big enough deal to annoy someone, Cross is explicitly, textually, about the failure of Crono and his friends. If that's your thing go ahead, enjoy what Chrono Cross has to offer, but it's not surprising that someone doesn't want to engage with new material that starts with a Bad End for the last game.

It's also why you've got literally zero fans of Chrono Trigger DS adding those tie-ins to Cross, because Chrono Trigger told one story, Cross told another, and Chrono Trigger DS made them awkwardly intermingle when Trigger just wanted to go watch its Dragon Ball fansubs while Cross wanted to sit in a dark room listening to experimental music.
Good points. Cross certainly tried something interesting an that's worth giving credit for. I only know the games second hand so it's hard for me to say how I feel, I know I'd be upset if a game I loved got a sequel that undermined everything that happened before so I can relate to CT fans who don't like CC.


If nothing else these threads convinced me to give these games a shot one day to see for myself firsthand.
 

Weiss

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64,265
Good points. Cross certainly tried something interesting an that's worth giving credit for. I only know the games second hand so it's hard for me to say how I feel, I know I'd be upset if a game I loved got a sequel that undermined everything that happened before so I can relate to CT fans who don't like CC.


If nothing else these threads convinced me to give these games a shot one day to see for myself firsthand.

In writing that I was reminded, of all things, of Tales of Symphonia 2. It sucks, but it starts with a pretty amazing premise; after the day was saved and everyone's dealing with the new circumstances the heroes' choices have left the world in the last game the previous hero has seemingly gone homicidal, and the new heroes are victims of his actions who team up with his old friends who want to solve the mystery of what he's doing while all coming to different theories about his behaviour., and there's even an incredibly minor sidequest from Symphonia (tldr: it's about how one of the main characters has become perceived by the world at large due to the ongoing events of the game) that ends up playing into the new heroine's own story. At the end the story doesn't try to hard replicate Symphona 1's dramatics, but instead tells a different story with different, more intimate stakes.

If Symphonia wasn't godawful trash ass garbage with the singular worst main character in all of video games it would honestly be a pretty interesting blueprint on how to do the direct sequel to a JRPG.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
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Nov 1, 2017
9,657
CC does not posit that CT's cast failed. The Time Devourer being a thing doesn't invalidate the fact that Chrono and co. saved the world's fate from certain destruction.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,237
CC does not posit that CT's cast failed. The Time Devourer being a thing doesn't invalidate the fact that Chrono and co. saved the world's fate from certain destruction.
The more I look at CC's messaging, the more of a mess it becomes.

I can't blame people for thinking the blame falls on the CT cast when even many of the fans of CC often argue that's the point.
 

Weiss

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CC does not posit that CT's cast failed. The Time Devourer being a thing doesn't invalidate the fact that Chrono and co. saved the world's fate from certain destruction.

It's less that "Crono directly caused it" and more that, following the theme of his time traveling antics turning out to have dire consequences, Crono's defeat of Lavos ended up sending it to the Darkness Beyond Time where it could then merge with Schala and begin to threaten all of reality.

It's not that it's Crono's fault, it's that the journey he set out on didn't solve the problem he wanted and ended up making a lot more, and probably more importantly, his mucking with time sent countless people to the Darkness Beyond Time. I don't think this reading is without merit as Lucca even talks about the timelines she and her friends doomed in her posthumous letter to Kid. It is technically true that Chrono Cross wouldn't happen for Serge to solve the problem now if it weren't for Crono, but it's more that, at the end of Chrono Trigger, beating Lavos at the end doesn't lead you to think "okay, that's part one", the credits roll and the game ends.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
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Nov 1, 2017
9,657
It's less that "Crono directly caused it" and more that, following the theme of his time traveling antics turning out to have dire consequences, Crono's defeat of Lavos ended up sending it to the Darkness Beyond Time where it could then merge with Schala and begin to threaten all of reality.

It's not that it's Crono's fault, it's that the journey he set out on didn't solve the problem he wanted and ended up making a lot more, and probably more importantly, his mucking with time sent countless people to the Darkness Beyond Time. I don't think this reading is without merit as Lucca even talks about the timelines she and her friends doomed in her posthumous letter to Kid. It is technically true that Chrono Cross wouldn't happen for Serge to solve the problem now if it weren't for Crono, but it's more that, at the end of Chrono Trigger, beating Lavos at the end doesn't lead you to think "okay, that's part one", the credits roll and the game ends.
I don't agree with that. Chrono Trigger wasn't originally intended to have a sequel, or at the very least wasn't intended to be interpreted that it would have one. While Lucca acknowledges the complications their journey brought into timespace she never regretted it. And there was no real way for Chrono and friends to completely destroy Lavos anyhow, with how Chrono Cross makes it clear that only harmony and peace channeled through the Chrono Cross could deny it it's existence. Chrono and his team did what they needed to, and the fallout doesn't diminish their efforts by hindsight.


The more I look at CC's messaging, the more of a mess it becomes.

I can't blame people for thinking the blame falls on the CT cast when even many of the fans of CC often argue that's the point.
I haven't seen any CC fans call Chrono's team a failed effort. At least in this thread, all positivity I see about Cross celebrates that it complements CT and strengthens it. Again I have never seen anyone call CT a bad game or inferior to Cross.
 

SlasherMcGirk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,614
Cincinnati
I actually love reading people different takes and interpretations of CC's story and the discussions that follow. If a story moves people like that then by my terms it's at least good.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,237
I haven't seen any CC fans call Chrono's team a failed effort. At least in this thread, all positivity I see about Cross celebrates that it complements CT and strengthens it. Again I have never seen anyone call CT a bad game or inferior to Cross.
I don't know how else to read someone saying "CC adds consequences to time travel" as anything but "the CT cast made some big mistakes".

And I don't know what to say about the last part. There's a lot of people that like CC more than CT, and that's fine? Definitely not hard to find posts about that around here when the topic comes up.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
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Nov 1, 2017
9,657
I don't know how else to read someone saying "CC adds consequences to time travel" as anything but "the CT cast made some big mistakes".

And I don't know what to say about the last part. There's a lot of people that like CC more than CT, and that's fine? Definitely not hard to find posts about that around here when the topic comes up.
I guess we'll agree to disagree on the latter part. Consequences doesn't mean mistakes though. All good actions have consequences too, just most RPG series never explore them.
 

Weiss

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I don't agree with that. Chrono Trigger wasn't originally intended to have a sequel, or at the very least wasn't intended to be interpreted that it would have one. While Lucca acknowledges the complications their journey brought into timespace she never regretted it. And there was no real way for Chrono and friends to completely destroy Lavos anyhow, with how Chrono Cross makes it clear that only harmony and peace channeled through the Chrono Cross could deny it it's existence. Chrono and his team did what they needed to, and the fallout doesn't diminish their efforts by hindsight.

See, I'm not approaching this through like, the hard lore. What you're saying is true: Cross explains that Lavos wasn't really defeated and it's through the use of the Chrono Cross against the Time Devourer that separates Schala and finally achieves victory. That Crono's adventure and defeat of Lavos was the first step is true according to what Cross tells us.

When you say "Chrono Trigger wasn't originally intended to have a sequel", that's what I'm trying to get at. None of the themes about the negative ramifications of time travel or concepts in Chrono Cross like the Time Devourer or the Darkness Beyond Time really exist in Chrono Trigger since it never thought of those. As far as Chrono Trigger is concerned Crono and the gang went on an adventure through time and saved history from a big space monster, and that's all we needed to know. Crono failed in the sense that another game came around with new lore that wanted to tell a different story, and it was interested in exploring those new ideas through the lens of "what if it didn't work out the way Chrono Trigger implicitly told us it did?"

So basically, if you just play Chrono Trigger then no, Crono didn't fail. Chrono Trigger told a complete story and ended how it wanted to. Chrono Cross wanted to tell a radically different, darker story with explicit ties to Trigger's last dangling plot thread, and to that end included elements like the fall of Guardia, the dead timelines, and the return of Lavos in a more powerful form. Crono failed in the sense that the conclusive ending of Trigger is now blown open so that a new story could be told.

Does that make more sense? I'm honestly terrible at these paragraphs long analysis posts.

If I wanted to play Chrono Trigger (and Cross) today, what are my best options?

Chrono Trigger's most available releases are on Steam and mobile, and Cross is on the North American PS3 store.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,657
Does that make more sense? I'm honestly terrible at these paragraphs long analysis posts.
No worries I see what you're saying. A CT fan would feel devastated that the sequel retconned the happy ending and hopeful feeling of its ending. Probably experience tone whiplash, artstyle change, less jovial dialogue, suddenly all these different accents, so many characters compared to the original core cast, all at the expense of what feels like part of the happiness of the original. I empathize with that feeling.
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,888
Before CC came out I'd just assumed she was dead. I was very surprised and terrified after learning this was not the case.
Yeah thats how I interpreted the original game.

She died to save everyone else and Magus' grief is real. They left it open ended so I hoped he found a way to save her but I never gave it more thought. I thought most about what happens to the OG 3 characters.

Chrono Cross makes a whole game around that but it was pretty disappointing to me. It was honestly not a bad game, but it did not come close to living up to my personal hype for a sequel of possibly my favorite game of all time. Ultimately outside of the music the characters did not do it for me. It did not have any of the things that I loved about CT. Which to be fair I rarely get in any RPG, but its disappointing that they could not capture those things and possible even improve on them in the sequel.
 

Valcrist

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Oct 25, 2017
9,685
This is about where I'm at.

As a what if story, CC has cool ideas even if it stumbles over its own feet to get there. And ultimately I view it as that, a what if story, and I'm glad it works for others.

These posts remind me of that old Masato Kato interview.

Masato Kato: OK. Since I may never have the chance to say this kind of thing anywhere else... I'll go ahead and say it. After the announcement of "Cross" this time, I heard a lot of voices out there that were saying things like, "Man, this isn't CHRONO". To tell you the truth, I was gravely disappointed. Yes, the platform changed; and yes, there were many parts that changed dramatically from the previous work. But in my view, the whole point in making Chrono Cross was to make a new Chrono with the best available skills and technologies of today. I never had any intentions of just taking the system from Trigger and moving it onto the PlayStation console. That's why I believe that Cross is Cross, and NOT Trigger 2. The thing that I can't understand is how could people possibly declare that this isn't Chrono? And for these people, I can't help but wonder what it was that Chrono meant to them...? Is it possible that none of the messages that I tried to send out to these people never really got through to them?

Cross is undoubtedly the highest quality Chrono that we can create right now. (I won't say the "best" Chrono, but) If you can't accept that, then I'm sorry to say this but I guess your Chrono and my Chrono have taken totally different paths. But I would like to say, thank you for falling in love with Trigger so much.

And to those of you who have fallen in love with the new Cross, Welcome. Pleased to meet you. And of course, Thank you very much.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,237
These posts remind me of that old Masato Kato interview.

Masato Kato: OK. Since I may never have the chance to say this kind of thing anywhere else... I'll go ahead and say it. After the announcement of "Cross" this time, I heard a lot of voices out there that were saying things like, "Man, this isn't CHRONO". To tell you the truth, I was gravely disappointed. Yes, the platform changed; and yes, there were many parts that changed dramatically from the previous work. But in my view, the whole point in making Chrono Cross was to make a new Chrono with the best available skills and technologies of today. I never had any intentions of just taking the system from Trigger and moving it onto the PlayStation console. That's why I believe that Cross is Cross, and NOT Trigger 2. The thing that I can't understand is how could people possibly declare that this isn't Chrono? And for these people, I can't help but wonder what it was that Chrono meant to them...? Is it possible that none of the messages that I tried to send out to these people never really got through to them?

Cross is undoubtedly the highest quality Chrono that we can create right now. (I won't say the "best" Chrono, but) If you can't accept that, then I'm sorry to say this but I guess your Chrono and my Chrono have taken totally different paths. But I would like to say, thank you for falling in love with Trigger so much.

And to those of you who have fallen in love with the new Cross, Welcome. Pleased to meet you. And of course, Thank you very much.
An author can't decide what works fans will enjoy, and neither are fans required to enjoy every work they put out.

I've never seen this quote before, but it's a fairly reasonable take. Understandable that he would feel disappointed that what he put so much work into doesn't resonate with everyone, but he's able to accept it. I can respect that, a lesser writer would just say everyone that doesn't like it is wrong.
 

Taruranto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,046
I don't agree with that. Chrono Trigger wasn't originally intended to have a sequel, or at the very least wasn't intended to be interpreted that it would have one. While Lucca acknowledges the complications their journey brought into timespace she never regretted it. And there was no real way for Chrono and friends to completely destroy Lavos anyhow, with how Chrono Cross makes it clear that only harmony and peace channeled through the Chrono Cross could deny it it's existence. Chrono and his team did what they needed to, and the fallout doesn't diminish their efforts by hindsight.
??? I don't get it. Did anyone finish CT and thought "I wonder if Lavos was destroyed at all!"?
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,657
??? I don't get it. Did anyone finish CT and thought "I wonder if Lavos was destroyed at all!"?
I was approaching it from a Cross perspective in that post. If someone had only played CT, then Lavos was definitely destroyed and the world saved. CC can't exist without CT, but CT can be taken as a standalone game if that were the only one you played.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
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Oct 27, 2017
35,527
When I was a young teen, Schala's disappearance was one of the biggest questions left in my mind after finishing Chrono Trigger.

Chrono Cross was such a dire misfire of an answer to the question that I honestly think the game would have been better as its own IP with no ties to Chrono Trigger.
 
When I was a young teen, Schala's disappearance was one of the biggest questions left in my mind after finishing Chrono Trigger.

Chrono Cross was such a dire misfire of an answer to the question that I honestly think the game would have been better as its own IP with no ties to Chrono Trigger.
And in that universe, we'd have "Is ______________ a stealth Chrono Trigger sequel?" threads. Kind of want to see that universe, just to read the thread
 

Dolce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,235
My dream Chrono 3 is so different from Trigger and Cross that both sets of fans are unhappy.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,753
My dream Chrono 3 is so different from Trigger and Cross that both sets of fans are unhappy.

That'd be what I want, too, actually. If Chrono 3 ever gets made, I hope it follows on what Cross did and be very different from its predecessors.

And in that universe, we'd have "Is ______________ a stealth Chrono Trigger sequel?" threads. Kind of want to see that universe, just to read the thread

"I am Setsuna" is a stealth Chrono game.
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
10,416
i always thought magus was kinda dumb/blind by hate, instead of stopping the ritual and save his sister he decides to risk her life and the whole world to kill lavos, and its responsible for the whole game of chrono cross. Dumb idiot
 

Weiss

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Oct 25, 2017
64,265
i always thought magus was kinda dumb/blind by hate, instead of stopping the ritual and save his sister he decides to risk her life and the whole world to kill lavos, and its responsible for the whole game of chrono cross. Dumb idiot

He is kind of a total dumbass isn't he.

He gets flung back to Zeal by the phenomenal cosmic force of Lavos, narrowly avoiding his historical death, and then decides to make everything happened exactly as he remembered so he can get revenge on a giant sand spur instead of using his godlike magic powers to stop the fall of Zeal.
 

Instro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,001
In regards to how conclusive the ending of CT is, it always kind of seemed like the nature of Lavos intentionally left the door wide open for a sequel(beyond the Schala stuff/ending). The latter stages of the game make it clear that multiple Spawn were created after it destroys the Earth. It's hard not to immediately think that the Lavos you are dealing with is just a spawn of another Lavos somewhere else, and that there could be many more Lavos type beings flying around.

It doesn't make sense thematically. Pointing out Trigger's problems only would work if Cross' protagonists were starting from a completely different point like if the heroes were professionals from some future organization overseeing the timelines - in a context like that then it could make thematic sense to call out the actions of amateurs. But, nope. Cross basically tells the player that the old group of plucky heroes unwillingly created trouble, but this time the whole plucky hero thing will actually work out.
To a degree, but I think Cross explicitly attempts to side step that issue by making everything part of Belthasar's grand plan. So instead of a romp through time vaguely guided by the Earth/Gaia trying to save itself, we have an adventure that is later pointed out to be a highly calculated effort to kill Lavos once and for all.
 

The Bookerman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,124
Chrono Cross is great. Boo this man
Nahh he's right.

The combat system is convoluted,
There's a gigantic amount of characters you can get in your party and a lot of them are meaningless to the story.
Story is overly complex for nothing.

It's a huge disappointment to me and many hold the same sentiment.

The soundtrack is it's only saving grace.
 
Oct 31, 2017
14,991
Nahh he's right.

The combat system is convoluted,
There's a gigantic amount of characters you can get in your party and a lot of them are meaningless to the story.
Story is overly complex for nothing.

It's a huge disappointment to me and many hold the same sentiment.

The soundtrack is it's only saving grace.
Je suis désolé que vous n'ayez pas apprécié le jeu. Mais moi et beaucoup d'autres personnes ont pensé que c'était fantastique.
 

Dolce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,235
Nahh he's right.

The combat system is convoluted,
There's a gigantic amount of characters you can get in your party and a lot of them are meaningless to the story.
Story is overly complex for nothing.

It's a huge disappointment to me and many hold the same sentiment.

The soundtrack is it's only saving grace.

wow are you describing final fantasy vi
 

The Bookerman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,124
Je suis désolé que vous n'ayez pas apprécié le jeu. Mais moi et beaucoup d'autres personnes ont pensé que c'était fantastique.
Le problème c'est que je voulais un système de jeu similiaire à Chrono Trigger. C'est un système completement différent de CT.
Il n'y as que Serge et Kid a qui ont s'attache et on prend un temps fou pour comprendre comment le jeu est lié à CT.

C'est aussi simple. Je sais que plusieurs aime le jeu, mais il faut reconnaitre que ce jeu n'est vraiment pas parfait.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,753
TIL that there are some people who consider Cross' battle system to be "convoluted". Really? The stamina system is incredibly easy to grasp. What's so convoluted about it?