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DF Retro: Analogue Mega Sg Review: The Ultimate Genesis/ Mega Drive Clone?
- Thread starter Nerun
- Start date
This is what I am wondering :D Also I am wondering which artwork it uses.
It's just a short non-optimized demo, unfortunately:
You can actually do full screen Blast Processing on the Sega CD, he just artificially limited himself to a smaller window for the purposes of the demo.
Cheers!
Has anyone in the scene ever worked on a Sega Mega-CD 32X demo? I remember back in the day the only games that came out for the combo were FMV games, and I always wondered if it had greater potential.
I'm pretty sure the lack of 32X support is due to the 32X having it's own AV cable and since the Mega SG doesn't support analog inputs (at this point in time), there's currently no way to hook the 32X up to the system. I wouldn't be surprised if their upcoming DAC adds support for it.
This dethrones the MLIG video as my favourite Mega Sg deep dive. I especially appreciated the big focus on the audio as this is where Mega Drive emulation lives or dies for me. I always appreciate your attention to detail Dark1x and I hope you return to this when Kevtris revises his work on the audio and the additional cart/card adaptors come out!
I wanna note that the guys behind the Sg have basically said to me that the 32X is something they're not yet giving up on, and Analogue is working on a digital to analog converter that, among other things, could allow the 32X to work. Their main problem with the 32X, they say, is the way its analog connection back to the system works.
On the converter: "It will allow you to use 32x and of course give access to every single analog video and audio output. It's the end all be all and completes the Analogue ecosystem. Meaning you can play all your systems on CRTs, light gun games, analog only peripherals, etc"
If this'll work in action is another question, but basically - it might be possible to plug a 32X in down the line, but it'll require extra hardware and require you to spend more money. I mean, in the end... it's not like there's an enormous amount being missed out on with 32X, but still.
That's cool. Hopefully it won't be too expensive, their "shipping" charge is bad enough lol.
Very cool. I've been considering picking up these retro clones and appreciate the effort done to test these.
Holy cow! Was that like a mountain trail type thing or just an in-city thing?
True, but I seriously don't need it with all the things I've got that can play Genesis on it (I do love my hacked Vita).
So the DF video says there is a game gear cart on the way, is there any confirmation on that? Also, does the adapter to play SMS games on the system also work on an original system or must it use the Analogue unit? I assume the latter but figured i'd ask.
Having revisited a bunch of titles over the weekend, I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Actually, might now grab me the Super Nt.
From Analogue's site...
I have no idea whether or not the adapter will work with other systems. Like... the Hyperkin 3-1 adapter will play Master System carts and cards inserted into it like the Retron5, but GameGear carts in the adapter won't work with the SG. I honestly don't know how all that works, but there's something that's different there, it seems.
edit: what that "3" is pointing to...
Excellent videos.
What are the chances of Analogue creating handhelds in the future? Can they make the boards small enough? I want all the Mega Drive games, but having them portable is so much more appealing to me. I realise we'd be talking Nomad levels of bulk, but I've been searching for the ultimate retro handheld for sooo looong.
What are the chances of Analogue creating handhelds in the future? Can they make the boards small enough? I want all the Mega Drive games, but having them portable is so much more appealing to me. I realise we'd be talking Nomad levels of bulk, but I've been searching for the ultimate retro handheld for sooo looong.
This is super random, but I always thought it was cool that during the 32X episode, at one point, I heard DJMAX music being used & thought "WOW, that's the first time I've ever heard someone use music from that series in a video, what a deep cut!"
Really cool video, can't wait to see one based on the upcoming Genesis Mini. I always knew AtGames' stuff was bad, but man, actually seeing footage & THAT AWFUL MUSIC....sheesh, I didn't know it was THAT bad. I only ever heard the butchered Green Hill music as the example of bad they were.
Can't wait to watch the Blast Processing one, even if most of it will most likely go over my head.
Appreciate the comparisons to the homebrew emulators BlastEm and Genesis Plus GX. I've talked with the author of BlastEm on their Discord about the upstream Libretro support that was recently added. Right now the core only builds for Linux, but hopefully it'll be available for Windows and other platforms soon.
Great video, John. I'll actually have to consider buying this if they update it to work with Game Gear games.
I typically have little-to-no intrerest in these technical analysis pieces but the DFR videos are always so well laid out and easy to follow.
I think Bluelote means having the 32x emulated within the FPGA itself, so you wouldn't have to worry about the video passthrough (since that would happen internally). Essentially a Sega Neptune clone.
Anyway, to answer Bluelote's question, in theory it should techinically be possible. It might require a bit of creativity, as the MD video pass through would be digital rather than analog; I'm no 100% sure how the 32x composites the two video signals together, so there could be challenges; but it could still be done one way or another.
The real issue, I suspect, is that there simply might not be enough gates within the Cyclone V chip to pull that off. Those double SH-2 CPUs are going to be pretty transistor hungry in there own right, and that's on top of all the existing MD circuitry and any peripheral circuits required to get the system working.
Intentionally stretched the image to fill the screen just for filming. You can manipulate the image freely using the scaling controls on the Sg.How is Sonic so close to the edge of the tv? Does the Mega SG stretch the image?
would it be possible to implement 32X on the FPGA and allow 32X games with a cart adapter like the Master System? That would be vastly preferable to having to hunt down an actual 32X and buy an accessory on top of that
Maybe we'll find out. The biggest low hanging fruit after they did the Mega Drive is the Game Boy/Game Boy Color. It has a huge collectors market, and the PS1/Saturn/N64 aren't currently feasible due to the cost of the FPGA chips capable of those systems being in the $XXXX range in pricing. Anything else they did like the PC Engine or NeoGeo are going to sell far less units than the Super NT or Mega SG. Kevtris already has a GB/GBC core developed which is already available on the NT Mini, and he can polish it up for the new console while working on other projects like the DAC. I'm hoping that if they did a GB/GBC that kev would spend his dev time making a GBA core if that is feasible. If not the GBA then maybe Super Game Boy support.
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Sweet, thanks for the info.
A GB/GBC machine would be cool, not overly exciting to me personally...but add GBA in there and that's a whole different ballgame. That'd be the first of their devices I'd pre-order, without hesitation.
Ha, awesome, happened to watch that one last night. Was already wondering if it was him. Great work!
Dark1x
Great vid! Have you ever thought of putting together a music playlist that you use in the video? Cuz that would be a great mixtape to listen to.
That was very interesting but damn if I actually understood 10% of it.
Great vid! Have you ever thought of putting together a music playlist that you use in the video? Cuz that would be a great mixtape to listen to.
That was very interesting but damn if I actually understood 10% of it.
There is a playlist in the Sg video! Check out the end.
That makes for a lovely animated mural BTW! Looks great in the video!
Would be great to have that just running in the background on an office wall!
Oh I see that you always list them at the end - I just thought it would be nice if you had a YT playlist that one could click and listen to (as I find it hard to find the same selections /or arrangements that are used).
Oh, that's a good idea but not every song I use is even on YT (many are). I'll see about that!
Thanks! Cuz I can tell many like your choice of tunes in your videos and I'm sure you make good mixtapes, too.
Oooh! This came out while I wasn't looking. Excited!
While I'd love to see 32X support on this thing, I don't know how you'd do that while retaining any of the features that makes this thing useful in the first place -- you'd have to get the video from the 32X out, so you'd need some sort of external upscaler to get it onto a modern TV at a reasonable resolution. I mean, I'm a huge fan of the cartridge slot add-on that couldn't, but it's certainly nothing compared to the Sega CD. I honestly would rather see them (or, well, anyone!) try to come up with a Sega CD clone that better fits this unit's profile and maybe even uses something like a traditional laptop drive enclosure so if a moving part breaks it's easy to replace it.
While I'd love to see 32X support on this thing, I don't know how you'd do that while retaining any of the features that makes this thing useful in the first place -- you'd have to get the video from the 32X out, so you'd need some sort of external upscaler to get it onto a modern TV at a reasonable resolution. I mean, I'm a huge fan of the cartridge slot add-on that couldn't, but it's certainly nothing compared to the Sega CD. I honestly would rather see them (or, well, anyone!) try to come up with a Sega CD clone that better fits this unit's profile and maybe even uses something like a traditional laptop drive enclosure so if a moving part breaks it's easy to replace it.
There was a time when DF was like an add-on to Eurogamer for me.
Now, it feels like the other way around and I mostly visit Eurogamer for Digital Foundry related stuff.
Excellent job John, love what you're doing 😉👍🏻
Now, it feels like the other way around and I mostly visit Eurogamer for Digital Foundry related stuff.
Excellent job John, love what you're doing 😉👍🏻
I can (kinda) explain what's going on with the notes that sound differently on the Model 1 in the 240p test program you showed off:
The YM2612, like all of Yamaha's FM synth chips (from relatively simple Adlib [OPL] stuff to the more elaborate YM2151 or DX synthesizer lines) are all built around a handful of fairly straightforward controls. An FM voice is built from multiple operators, usually sine waves, arranged to interfere with each other to create more elaborate sounds according to a number of different layouts/algorithms. Each sine wave has typical ADSR envelope programming plus a frequency that (except in very specific cases) is some multiple of the base frequency of the note the voice is going to play. That ADSR setup has an interesting quirk to it, though, which is that if a note is currently playing (either no 'note off' was set or the sustain is still being held) then a new note won't have the attack envelope applied to it. That's why the one note on the stock VA2 genesis doesn't appear to have as strong an attack as the other notes -- it actually doesn't, as a result of the way the chip was designed.
This behavior is known, documented, and expected in Yamaha chips -- even if it's counterintuitive to someone who isn't used to working with them.
This, then, would be an incredibly subtle timing issue with when the program sends its notes, and I notice that the unexpected tone happened in your video specifically when the program generating the notes switches octave. It's not specifically an issue with the actual FM chip (VA2 and VA3 both have discrete 2612s). The mixing circuits are altered though (VA3 was redesigned to reduce pre-amp gain relative to VA2), and my best guess is that this is somehow just enough difference in timing between the revisions that the VA3 and later don't have that issue. If the VA3 didn't have the expected behavior I'd be much more likely to put it down toward the issue just being that they didn't do the proper release command at the end when switching octaves and that this is the result of a minor oversight in the software.
The YM2612, like all of Yamaha's FM synth chips (from relatively simple Adlib [OPL] stuff to the more elaborate YM2151 or DX synthesizer lines) are all built around a handful of fairly straightforward controls. An FM voice is built from multiple operators, usually sine waves, arranged to interfere with each other to create more elaborate sounds according to a number of different layouts/algorithms. Each sine wave has typical ADSR envelope programming plus a frequency that (except in very specific cases) is some multiple of the base frequency of the note the voice is going to play. That ADSR setup has an interesting quirk to it, though, which is that if a note is currently playing (either no 'note off' was set or the sustain is still being held) then a new note won't have the attack envelope applied to it. That's why the one note on the stock VA2 genesis doesn't appear to have as strong an attack as the other notes -- it actually doesn't, as a result of the way the chip was designed.
This behavior is known, documented, and expected in Yamaha chips -- even if it's counterintuitive to someone who isn't used to working with them.
This, then, would be an incredibly subtle timing issue with when the program sends its notes, and I notice that the unexpected tone happened in your video specifically when the program generating the notes switches octave. It's not specifically an issue with the actual FM chip (VA2 and VA3 both have discrete 2612s). The mixing circuits are altered though (VA3 was redesigned to reduce pre-amp gain relative to VA2), and my best guess is that this is somehow just enough difference in timing between the revisions that the VA3 and later don't have that issue. If the VA3 didn't have the expected behavior I'd be much more likely to put it down toward the issue just being that they didn't do the proper release command at the end when switching octaves and that this is the result of a minor oversight in the software.