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Jeffram

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,924
This is pretty encouraging for pre-release first gen RT games.

I think it's obvious that no game is going to have all RT features enabled globally. It makes sense to use it where it's impactful and not where it's not. If you can't tell the difference without slowing it down, reviewing over and over, zooming in etc, what's the point?

Not saying that's the case in everything here, but that's the balance we'll probably move towards.
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
People judge by what they're given.

But you're right, there doesn't seem to be any/much ray tracing in their gameplay demo.

VMsrIuw.gif


The car in front is clearly not reflecting your car.
Had they bothered using a third person camera for the race sequence, we wouldve easily been able to tell if ray tracing is present during gameplay.

cockpit gameplay is an absolutely bizarre way to show off your only major graphical upgrade for the sequel.
 

laxu

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,782
What we are seeing from PS5 trailers, is a full-on ray tracing solution is out of reach for another generation of consoles. The best they can do is to sprinkle some rt effects here and there. We actually know that for a quite long time, and xbox is no exception. Which puts PC RT in a peculiar position. The rt capability of RTX cards ( 2080 and up) will be far superior than console's, yet who's gonna develop a full-on ray tracing engine?

We already have Quake 2 RTX and I think there was some other unique game with a full path-traced engine. We might also see old favorites converted for path tracing. Full path tracing is not coming into the mainstream anytime soon and raytracing will only take a significant leap if we see a PS5 Pro type mid-gen update that improves on this aspect.

On PC path traced engines might actually be more viable thanks to Nvidia's DLSS 2.0 upscaling.
 

RoboPlato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,807
It's still flooring me that we're getting unfinished games that may not even be on final hardware showing off RT at native 4K on the console that has lower peak GPU performance. I did not expect that at all and am so excited to see how this gen evolves.
 

raketenrolf

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,205
Germany
It's still flooring me that we're getting unfinished games that may not even be on final hardware showing off RT at native 4K on the console that has lower peak GPU performance. I did not expect that at all and am so excited to see how this gen evolves.
Also curious to see how the mid-gen refresh hardware will improve on the games this time.
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,511
Cape Cod, MA
What we are seeing from PS5 trailers, is a full-on ray tracing solution is out of reach for another generation of consoles. The best they can do is to sprinkle some rt effects here and there. We actually know that for a quite long time, and xbox is no exception. Which puts PC RT in a peculiar position. The rt capability of RTX cards ( 2080 and up) will be far superior than console's, yet who's gonna develop a full-on ray tracing engine?
We already have Quake 2 RTX and I think there was some other unique game with a full path-traced engine. We might also see old favorites converted for path tracing. Full path tracing is not coming into the mainstream anytime soon and raytracing will only take a significant leap if we see a PS5 Pro type mid-gen update that improves on this aspect.

On PC path traced engines might actually be more viable thanks to Nvidia's DLSS 2.0 upscaling.

Microsoft have already shown path tracing on Series X with Minecraft DXR. Obviously few games on the console will be able to target such things, and even there it's running at less than perfect framerate and 1080p or whatever, but that's full on path tracing, so it can be done.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
I'm surprised Hitman 3 didn't get a mention. You can only see it very briefly in a few shots in the gameplay trailer, but the RT reflections look really natural.
 
Oct 29, 2017
13,480
What we are seeing from PS5 trailers, is a full-on ray tracing solution is out of reach for another generation of consoles. The best they can do is to sprinkle some rt effects here and there. We actually know that for a quite long time, and xbox is no exception. Which puts PC RT in a peculiar position. The rt capability of RTX cards ( 2080 and up) will be far superior than console's, yet who's gonna develop a full-on ray tracing engine?
I doesn't have to a drastically different implementation. Just higher quality versions of the same effects would find a way to task a GPU greatly. Similarly to any other aspect of graphics in current ports, they don't reinvent the way it is rendered, but increase enough things that had to be scaled down and you need considerably more power to run that PC port. An easier sell than adding RT effects to games that had none.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,960
What we are seeing from PS5 trailers, is a full-on ray tracing solution is out of reach for another generation of consoles. The best they can do is to sprinkle some rt effects here and there. We actually know that for a quite long time, and xbox is no exception. Which puts PC RT in a peculiar position. The rt capability of RTX cards ( 2080 and up) will be far superior than console's, yet who's gonna develop a full-on ray tracing engine?
You can bet in 3 or 4 years when mid gen consoles arrive the big selling point will be full RT.
 

lukeskymac

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
992
Please don't spread misinformation. Atleast put "I think" if you're not sure what you're talking about. Current raytracing hardware only speeds up the BVH traversal and intersection which is only a small part of the raytracing process. Most is still done by the same hardware that does rasterization meaning it takes a ton of shading resources away from the rest. In other words: using raytracing means sacrificing other stuff.

Why else do you think the performance hit for raytracing is so big? If it was really done in parallel there would be not performance hit. The immense shading cost of raytracing for just one effect is why I think you can push a better looking game out if you don't use it. Alas it's the current hype so I guess we'll waste a ton of performance on it, similar to how we'll waste it on native 4k instead of using more efficient, but slightly worse looking, methods.
I said "the tracing itself is done in parallel", I did not at all imply that there weren't shading costs - but to say that the intersection calculations are "only a small part" when you'd need practically double the GPU to do it without said hardware according to Microsoft is some very strange downplaying - as is reducing the myriad uses of raytracing hardware to "just one effect".

But I guess you know better than everyone in the industry, and DF themselves, when you say it's just "the current hype", and not the first necessary steps towards a more physically accurate CG future.
 
Last edited:

Jedi2016

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,623
People judge by what they're given.

But you're right, there doesn't seem to be any/much ray tracing in their gameplay demo.

VMsrIuw.gif


The car in front is clearly not reflecting your car.
Actually, if you look very carefully at the trunk of the red Mazda, it looks like the spoiler is self-reflecting onto the car. At least, the struts are, the spoiler itself wouldn't reflect at that angle. That's the overall problem with this shot is that the angles are all wrong, you wouldn't really be able to see much reflected anyway.

You're also not seeing the internal reflection, the dashboard being reflected up onto the inside of the windshield. That effect was in GTS, so it's probably intentionally taken out here.
 

exodus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,944
GT7 is what I fear we'll see with a lot of ray traced games: an overuse of reflection. It's way overdone and lends to a less photorealistic look. Why is the floor of the garage polished to a mirror sheen? With not one spec of dust on the cars, the reflections are far too prominent.
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,355
GT7 is what I fear we'll see with a lot of ray traced games: an overuse of reflection. It's way overdone and lends to a less photorealistic look. Why is the floor of the garage polished to a mirror sheen? With not one spec of dust on the cars, the reflections are far too prominent.

Because that's how garage's like that look

big12_a13sjq9.jpg
 

jwhit28

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,048
GT7 is what I fear we'll see with a lot of ray traced games: an overuse of reflection. It's way overdone and lends to a less photorealistic look. Why is the floor of the garage polished to a mirror sheen? With not one spec of dust on the cars, the reflections are far too prominent.
It's explained in the video. It takes less power to have a mirror sheen reflection. Expect some games to only have RT on the shiniest surfaces.
 

Uhtred

Alt Account
Banned
May 4, 2020
1,340

I mean they explain why right in the video. This is likely an optimization. It's cheaper to render mirror like surfaces than to take into account roughness values. It's possible they'll try to simulate this with a post processing pass in the final game.... or not.

The consoles are all about balancing performance with the limitation of fixed hardware.
 

Rpgmonkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,348
What we are seeing from PS5 trailers, is a full-on ray tracing solution is out of reach for another generation of consoles. The best they can do is to sprinkle some rt effects here and there. We actually know that for a quite long time, and xbox is no exception. Which puts PC RT in a peculiar position. The rt capability of RTX cards ( 2080 and up) will be far superior than console's, yet who's gonna develop a full-on ray tracing engine?

I don't think it would be too different from how things work today. If console games opt for having features enabled but they switch on/off at different thresholds (distance, roughness, etc.), are of lower resolution, only use it in specific circumstances, etc., the hook for PCs would probably be to introduce higher graphical settings over time that remove those constraints, and also do it at higher framerates and/or resolutions.

By late gen there might be a complex AAA game where the console version would utilize it throughout their game's lighting but fall back to rasterization in certain circumstances or run it at a lower quality, but there's an Ultra setting for the excess power of a 5080 or 6080 that only uses full quality ray tracing. Like console games on PCs today it probably wouldn't really result in it looking like an entirely different game, some visual improvements just aren't that noticeable, but it allows it to go beyond "good enough" to a more complete, accurate picture.

There's Minecraft DXR and Quake II so I assume some work is going into creating path-traced videogames that are simpler or older, and there'll probably be a few indie games that try it, but we're probably years away from being at a point where something like a modern, fairly complex Unreal Engine game could be path traced at playable performance.
 

exodus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,944
I mean they explain why right in the video. This is likely an optimization. It's cheaper to render mirror like surfaces than to take into account roughness values. It's possible they'll try to simulate this with a post processing pass in the final game.... or not.

The consoles are all about balancing performance with the limitation of fixed hardware.

Yeah, I get that. But surely some material properties can at least lead to overall more diffuse/opaque lighting across the board without needing to alter the ray tracing behavior? DF is specifically talking about having more diffuse reflections the futher away it is from the model. This just feels like the material was specifically tuned for maximum reflections.

But I get it, and I get the limitation. It just doesn't feel like it's worth it. It looks bad to my eyes and the quarter checkerboarded resolution will just lead to poorer image quality overall.

I think we'll get to a point where developers start using these features more sparingly and in a more tasteful way. This just feels overdone for the sake of showcasing a new feature, without much thought to the overall presentation.

At least the game looks great on the road, and I'm mostly nitpicking about a simple garage scene. Hopefully they can add a bit of dirt to the cars on the road to scuff up the reflections a bit over the course of a race. That'd be rad.
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,930
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
It's not going to look like that all the time. That's a specific angle. Just like when people complained that GT's cars were "too shiny" at one point. They never were. High performance cars with new finishes are extremely shiny.
Well the reason it is too shiney is because the ray traced reflections in GT7 seem to Lack contact hardening, so technically it is too shiney.

The reflections do not get more diffuse and starker along the reflection itself, which makes them overly bright and sharp for the whole scene.

Edit: I see everyone alreadyy comment ed on thsi wuups!
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,038
Well the reason it is too shiney is because the ray traced reflections in GT7 seem to Lack contact hardening, so technically it is too shiney.

The reflections do not get more diffuse and starker along the reflection itself, which makes them overly bright and sharp for the whole scene.

Edit: I see everyone alreadyy comment ed on thsi wuups!

optimisation is one area I'm intrigued to see how console devs approach the new features with relative lack of performance. Like your video said, they could fake diffuse reflections with a post processing filter, and I'd expect many more such fake tricks to squeeze as much as possible from the hardware

to see it this relatively early is a positive sign I think.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,996
Looking at the 4K version of that offline, it is really hard to see what is going on due to the car movement. Really hard to see the reflections let alone if self-reflection is occuring. But one thing that can be seen later in the trailer is that a car far ahead of the player is not using RT (could just be cube maps), or at least RT which does not run every frame (another possible optimation, stagger RT update for things at a distance). The reflection on the car here updates about 1 time every 30 frames. Footage slowed down to 25%.

I do wonder if many RT effects are even feasible in something like a racing game to begin with due to the low ray count combined with the high speed of gameplay.
Even slow-paced games have to accumulate over time and end up with a lot of temporal artifacts (lots of ghosting/noise when RT is in use).
Or am I completely wrong in thinking this?
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
Well the reason it is too shiney is because the ray traced reflections in GT7 seem to Lack contact hardening, so technically it is too shiney.

The reflections do not get more diffuse and starker along the reflection itself, which makes them overly bright and sharp for the whole scene.

Edit: I see everyone alreadyy comment ed on thsi wuups!
can you tell if the spidey reflection here is ray traced?

spiderman-miles-morales-ps5-screenshot-action.png



they havent commented on building windows having ray tracing which is really disappointing.
 

eso76

Prophet of Truth
Member
Dec 8, 2017
8,107
GT7 is what I fear we'll see with a lot of ray traced games: an overuse of reflection. It's way overdone and lends to a less photorealistic look.

Hmm. Knowing PD I really don't think that will happen. Those guys are insane when it comes to making all materials look spot on.
They will absolutely go for the idealised, car commercial look, but won't sacrifice photorealism.

Yes, that floor sure is shiny but it won't be come release I'm sure
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,930
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
I do wonder if many RT effects are even feasible in something like a racing game to begin with due to the low ray count combined with the high speed of gameplay.
Even slow-paced games have to accumulate over time and end up with a lot of temporal artifacts (lots of ghosting/noise when RT is in use).
Or am I completely wrong in thinking this?
If you trace perfectly coherent reflections and then post process blur them they will not need much temporal fixing up but be physically incorrect, but Stochastic reflections would be harder and noisier.
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,930
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
can you tell if the spidey reflection here is ray traced?

spiderman-miles-morales-ps5-screenshot-action.png



they havent commented on building windows having ray tracing which is really disappointing.
It could be, but could also not be. To judge ray tracing you need more than a flat surface, you need concave and convex ones and evidence of self reflections. Those things cannot be done correctly with the other fake rasterisation techniques.
 

Jiraiya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,279
Pragamata showing full GI ray tracing is wild. Even with the caveats...GT7 reflections were more than fine enough. I think these machines are more capable than some think...especially with 4A games announcing awhile back that they were dropping all of their old school code path/techniques completely. They've seen the machines and we've seen early games running at 4k 60 with ray tracing.
www.eurogamer.net

4A Games on next-gen: "We are fully into ray tracing"

It's official. 4A Games are fully committed to ray tracing technology for its next big game and the implications are ex…
 
Jan 3, 2018
3,404
GT7 is what I fear we'll see with a lot of ray traced games: an overuse of reflection. It's way overdone and lends to a less photorealistic look. Why is the floor of the garage polished to a mirror sheen? With not one spec of dust on the cars, the reflections are far too prominent.

Dust tracing is next-next gen.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,625
I'm surprised Hitman 3 didn't get a mention. You can only see it very briefly in a few shots in the gameplay trailer, but the RT reflections look really natural.
The thing about Hitman 3 is that we can't really tell if it's ray traced or not atm by just looking at whether the reflected object is off screen or not from 5 seconds of footage (where we do see reflections). It's cause the reflections that we did see could have been planer reflections as well, which is something they did in spades in Hitman 2 for both opaque and translucent objects.
 

Pyramid Head

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,838
I hope the missing asset reflections in Ratchet is a bug. If you're gonna have big obvious chunks of geometry casting no reflections, you might as well stick with SSR as your solution. As it is, it give me flashes of the environment mapped floors of Assassin's Creed Unity.
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
Pragamata showing full GI ray tracing is wild. Even with the caveats...GT7 reflections were more than fine enough. I think these machines are more capable than some think...especially with 4A games announcing awhile back that they were dropping all of their old school code path/techniques completely. They've seen the machines and we've seen early games running at 4k 60 with ray tracing.
www.eurogamer.net

4A Games on next-gen: "We are fully into ray tracing"

It's official. 4A Games are fully committed to ray tracing technology for its next big game and the implications are ex…
the problem with pragmata doing full ray tracing is that it looks effectively current gen save for the RT stuff. the girl's hair and character model both look very average for current gen. the ray tracing in the eyes is cool but do you notice that or do you notice the plasticy skin shaders more? hell, i think capcom's re characters look better.

i think devs have to be mindful of how they approach ray tracing on next gen consoles or next next gen consoles. RT seems to be way too expensive.
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
I hope the missing asset reflections in Ratchet is a bug. If you're gonna have big obvious chunks of geometry casting no reflections, you might as well stick with SSR as your solution. As it is, it give me flashes of the environment mapped floors of Assassin's Creed Unity.
i am not a ratchet fan but i did play the ps4 ratchet and the particle effects in that game are insane. you can have literally thousands of nuts and bolts flying around at all times, there is simply no way to dynamically trace their reflections on the fly without completely killing your framerate. you might as well be asking to ray trace bullet reflections.
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,930
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
i am not a ratchet fan but i did play the ps4 ratchet and the particle effects in that game are insane. you can have literally thousands of nuts and bolts flying around at all times, there is simply no way to dynamically trace their reflections on the fly without completely killing your framerate. you might as well be asking to ray trace bullet reflections.
Ratchet and clank uses gpu particles for such things I am pretty Sure, which cannot be ray traced anyway as they do not actually exist in the game World. They are more like a post-process.
 

Pyramid Head

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,838
i am not a ratchet fan but i did play the ps4 ratchet and the particle effects in that game are insane. you can have literally thousands of nuts and bolts flying around at all times, there is simply no way to dynamically trace their reflections on the fly without completely killing your framerate. you might as well be asking to ray trace bullet reflections.
I'm not talking about particles, I'm talking about the barriers and platforms which just aren't there in the reflections.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,038
i am not a ratchet fan but i did play the ps4 ratchet and the particle effects in that game are insane. you can have literally thousands of nuts and bolts flying around at all times, there is simply no way to dynamically trace their reflections on the fly without completely killing your framerate. you might as well be asking to ray trace bullet reflections.

particles is probably fine, but the barriers you likely cover behind are very noticeably missing reflections. If there are ray limits then prioritise closer items? or mix SSR and RT like battlefield. SSR is good for many situations
 

Jiraiya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,279
the problem with pragmata doing full ray tracing is that it looks effectively current gen save for the RT stuff. the girl's hair and character model both look very average for current gen. the ray tracing in the eyes is cool but do you notice that or do you notice the plasticy skin shaders more? hell, i think capcom's re characters look better.

i think devs have to be mindful of how they approach ray tracing on next gen consoles or next next gen consoles. RT seems to be way too expensive.

Todays visuals with ray tracing and the obvious geometry gains sounds pretty damn good to me to start off the gen. But I think most of what we saw is above today's visuals as a package already.
 
May 7, 2020
2,819
the problem with pragmata doing full ray tracing is that it looks effectively current gen save for the RT stuff. the girl's hair and character model both look very average for current gen. the ray tracing in the eyes is cool but do you notice that or do you notice the plasticy skin shaders more? hell, i think capcom's re characters look better.

i think devs have to be mindful of how they approach ray tracing on next gen consoles or next next gen consoles. RT seems to be way too expensive.
that game is coming 2022 jesus christ

time to ignore this thread
 

RedHeat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,685
the problem with pragmata doing full ray tracing is that it looks effectively current gen save for the RT stuff. the girl's hair and character model both look very average for current gen. the ray tracing in the eyes is cool but do you notice that or do you notice the plasticy skin shaders more? hell, i think capcom's re characters look better.

i think devs have to be mindful of how they approach ray tracing on next gen consoles or next next gen consoles. RT seems to be way too expensive.
Yeah, this gen is gonna be full of sacrifices in the form of raytracing, fps, resolution, etc.. We probably wont get anything that that takes full advantage of all that stuff until mid-gen refreshes at the very least
 

Raide

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
16,596
I'm not talking about particles, I'm talking about the barriers and platforms which just aren't there in the reflections.
It's possible it's a bug, could also be a reduced amount of rays being cast which would lead to some items being missed. This would be due to lack of RT cores and can be solved by reducing the RT detail even more and fit in more objects
 

nelsonroyale

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,126
Yeah, this gen is gonna be full of sacrifices in the form of raytracing, fps, resolution, etc.. We probably wont get anything that that takes full advantage of all that stuff until mid-gen refreshes at the very least

I mean even the most powerful GPUs that will be released this year will be full of compromises when it comes to ray tracing. Given that consoles devs are moving up from current gen constraints, there are a ton of new leeway at their finger tips to make games look substantially better. Ray tracing can make a difference, but it can't magically make a game look better than another when other things are unequal. Control for instance is a very good looking game, but it certainly doesn't look as impressive as some of the stuff shown at the Sony Event in other areas.
 

Mr.Deadshot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,285
ehh bisdes the super shiny floor in rachet you could have told me everything else had no raytracing and i would have believed you.
but to be fair it is really something you to be playing to truly appreciate.
That's the thing with Ray Tracing. It isn't always that visible. But when you see it it can be really special. Like a little clock on a wall reflecting the whole room in Control. Or projector pictures mirroring in a glass door.