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DF: Halo Infinite Gameplay Reveal Analysis: Are The Graphics Really Flat?
- Thread starter FLX-II
- Start date
Wanted to chime in with further kudos for Alex and co. about how great their work is, and how appreciated their continued analysis is. Personally I think this is one of your best videos ever - incredibly informative, very thorough and candid, and also super interesting in a morbidly curious 'watching a >100 million dollar train-wreck' kinda way (still extremely excited for Infinite however). The concern trolling and conspiracy theories earlier in this thread couldn't be more ridiculous.
Would genuinely love even more of a deep dive into what's going on here, postulations about what went wrong, and what solutions if any are available and how realistic these might be to implement with current timeframe. Going to be really interesting to see how Infinite evolves in the coming months (and years potentially).
A few interesting ideas have been tossed about - i.e. Slipspace being conducive to bigger scale and return of Scarab style encounters, multiplayer and Forge on Campaign spaces, reduced visual disparity between user-generated/Forge content and dev-made maps, a back-end/foundation that'll be more conducive to 10 years of iterating than the previous Blam engine was - but everything's currently speculative or wishful thinking.
Would genuinely love even more of a deep dive into what's going on here, postulations about what went wrong, and what solutions if any are available and how realistic these might be to implement with current timeframe. Going to be really interesting to see how Infinite evolves in the coming months (and years potentially).
The major two suggested in the video were ease of iteration (i.e. dynamic lighting will make creating content much faster versus traditional baked lighting) and of course enabling variable lighting conditions/time-of-day (good for variety and replayability). Will be interesting to see whether there are further benefits.
A few interesting ideas have been tossed about - i.e. Slipspace being conducive to bigger scale and return of Scarab style encounters, multiplayer and Forge on Campaign spaces, reduced visual disparity between user-generated/Forge content and dev-made maps, a back-end/foundation that'll be more conducive to 10 years of iterating than the previous Blam engine was - but everything's currently speculative or wishful thinking.
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What are the franchises that are large scale, with day night cycle for current gen?
RDR2
Assassins Creed
Watchdogs
Horizon Zero Dawn
Ghost of Tsushima
Ghost Recon: Wildlands
FPS:
Far Cry 5
It's hard to do. 343 is going to have their hands full shipping a new game on a new ambitious engine on Xb1, XB1x, PC, Xss, Xsx. I think they bit more than they can chew.
RDR2
Assassins Creed
Watchdogs
Horizon Zero Dawn
Ghost of Tsushima
Ghost Recon: Wildlands
FPS:
Far Cry 5
It's hard to do. 343 is going to have their hands full shipping a new game on a new ambitious engine on Xb1, XB1x, PC, Xss, Xsx. I think they bit more than they can chew.
Totally agree. There's grass pop-in as well as pop-off. In the beginning right before MC gets into the vehicle there's pretty jarring grass 'pop-offs', in other words it's getting occluded but it's something that should be happening off-screen just outside of the camera's FOV, not on-screen as it did. That immediately broke immersion.
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According to Cerny (I take it we all trust his words on this forum), RT GI should be the cheapest graphics related RT you can do. Makes sense since you can fake great looking GI on current gen consoles already.
That slide always confused me. Perfect reflections are definitely way cheaper than GI. One ray vs many accumulative rays.
To come back to the subject, it is absolutely not a problem of texture as some say, nor a problem of LOD, streaming, filtering or even mipmap. We can clearly see that the problem does not concern the textures. These are blocks that overlap perfectly in 3x3, it is not at all in UV space.
In addition, the effect is applied by object and not just any way on the image. It is not by chance. It stops perfectly at the edge of the objects. It is therefore an effect by draw call (as can be done with VRS). And this does not apply on the geometry, the edges of the polygons remain full-res (as with VRS again).
It is not MRS (Multi-Resolution Shading) either. And it is not a compression block either because it is direct feed (compression blocks would not be perfectly 3x3 and would not be confined exactly inside an object).
In summary, I know that the VRS 3x3 does not exist and that makes it even more intriguing.
It also shows that it's time to stop with these stories of "native 4K" (largely the fault of Microsoft who talks a lot about it). It no longer makes sense. Native 4K is not an end in itself and is, in many cases, a pure waste of resources. It would be much more relevant to simply form an opinion on the final result on the screen.
It's certainly a lot of platforms to support. Two of the games you listed only had to deal with two different machines which is quite a bit different than the five you list here (assuming Lockhart is a thing).
Are we potentially looking at some software solution for VRS?
I recall Modern Warfare 2019 had implemented software VRS. It makes sense they'll want a software solution that works on the base platforms.
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Yep. This is exactly what I think. I think this is using the tech presented in their own VRS patent which was always mostly talking about how to implement VRS via software (meaning, without dedicated hardware). And it makes sense because of compatibility for the myriad of devices they support, from XB1, countless PC configs up to Xbox Series X.
The fact that we can easily spot the 720p based aliasing shows that tech is not great. It's just another kind of flawed reconstruction technique with visible artifacts constantly visible in motion and even in stills. Also it makes the images looks very soft and uneven because of those spots of 720p in a 2160p framebuffer.
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Spiderman ps4 in itself looks better than halo infinite currently regardless. I was amazed how good NY looked. Add in 4k 60fps and it performs the same and looks way better than halo infinite.
Final Fantasy XV also have day night cycle (plus dynamic weather).
No one has seen 4k 60fps Spiderman unless you're a time traveler.
Spiderman ps4 has been out for a while now... insomniac says the new game is 4k 60fps. I was stating that spiderman ps5 at 4k 60fps would be better than the way halo is looking now even if it looked exactly like spiderman ps4 which is checkerboard 4k 30fps because spiderman ps4 has very good graphics already.
I think there are a lot of problems with the game, however, I believe the most significant issue is indeed the lighting and the neglect of ray tracing that Dictator is pointing towards.
If the quality of textures, armor, explosions, etc, are relying on all it's lighting from ray tracing alone, that would explain lack of shadows being cast around the world and therefore neglecting details.
It does not explain, however, that lego phantom.
If the quality of textures, armor, explosions, etc, are relying on all it's lighting from ray tracing alone, that would explain lack of shadows being cast around the world and therefore neglecting details.
It does not explain, however, that lego phantom.
not having anything to show off that horse power at launch is a problem tbh
The old Blam engine was showing its age for a while. There was an excellent post in another thread that described one of the big problems.
I think the problem is that there are basically 2 titles in development:
- Halo:Infinite for the XB1/X. This is the game that the demo was intended for, this is the game that has been polished, this is the game that is almost shippable. (using a form of static lighting at 60fps/variable res?)
- Halo:Infinite for the XSX. This was intended to be a post-release update but has been rushed - it's not ready for demoing, the lighting is absolutely not suited to the content that they've finished, it probably relies on hardware APIs that are barely written (or still pending).
So the intention was probably to show a demo of the XB1/X version whilst describing how everything was cross-gen and showing a few shots of the XSX. But I think a combination of Sony's presentation, mis-statements by MS senior staff and a surprising lack of *any* XSX content led to them running the demo on the XSX.
However I don't understand why this demo video does not have a giant 'work in progress/does not represent final product' disclaimer.
- Halo:Infinite for the XB1/X. This is the game that the demo was intended for, this is the game that has been polished, this is the game that is almost shippable. (using a form of static lighting at 60fps/variable res?)
- Halo:Infinite for the XSX. This was intended to be a post-release update but has been rushed - it's not ready for demoing, the lighting is absolutely not suited to the content that they've finished, it probably relies on hardware APIs that are barely written (or still pending).
So the intention was probably to show a demo of the XB1/X version whilst describing how everything was cross-gen and showing a few shots of the XSX. But I think a combination of Sony's presentation, mis-statements by MS senior staff and a surprising lack of *any* XSX content led to them running the demo on the XSX.
However I don't understand why this demo video does not have a giant 'work in progress/does not represent final product' disclaimer.
True. But that's a criticism of the art, not the horsepower.
Did I miss the launch?
Arguably that could have made reactions even worse, from people who know nothing about game development seeing "Does not represent final product" in marketing a presumed 4 months from launch. Even if the actual build being ran is from months ago itself.
can you tell me about the next gen visually impressive launch titles that you've seen for xbox series x? Im buying the system day one, im
Not a sony fan boy, but lets be honest in terms of visually impressive next gen launch titles, like the xbox one had in ryse and forza 5, the series x doesnt seem to have anything comprable at launch. Nothing we can look at and say "wow, thats next gen"
I completely agree with you. Hellblade 2 looks good and I expect 2k, FIFA, Madden to have all the fanciful graphics
I let this sink in for a little while more. On a technology level sure raytraced lighting will make it look better...but not miles better. Metro Exodus looks amazing without RT and even better with it enabled. A "fix" that would actually benefit way more people, from my POV, would be more pronounced AO and more intense volumentric lighting. The latter would make the medium and distant visuals pop way more.
Overall, i really see an art issue here. Nothing pops, or rather everything pops the same. There are no great contrasts, i dont see much of an artistic intent to draw the viewers attention anywere.
Overall, i really see an art issue here. Nothing pops, or rather everything pops the same. There are no great contrasts, i dont see much of an artistic intent to draw the viewers attention anywere.
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This is on purpose. They want to add content rapidly without having to spend lots of time authoring them. i.e. baking in lighting.
It the trade-offs they decided to take.
Digital Foundry: Halo Infinite E3 2019: A Taste Of Next-Gen Xbox Graphics?
Is this the level of graphical fidelity we should expect from launch Xbox Project Scarlett titles? Alex checks out the Halo Infinite trailer from E3 2019, dissecting the technology and showcasing how the new Slipstream Engine stacks up against prior Halo tech. Thank you to Logitech G and the...
www.resetera.com
I found this old thread, don't know how people would react with a bump so I thought it would be better to keep the talk here
It does seem that Halo Infinite, the way it looks, its Halo from old gen with 4k 60fps on it. They talk a lot about the compromises necessary to make Halo 5 60fps on Xbox One and its looks like the same situation.
Digital Foundry: Halo Infinite E3 2019: A Taste Of Next-Gen Xbox Graphics?
Is this the level of graphical fidelity we should expect from launch Xbox Project Scarlett titles? Alex checks out the Halo Infinite trailer from E3 2019, dissecting the technology and showcasing how the new Slipstream Engine stacks up against prior Halo tech. Thank you to Logitech G and the...
I found this old thread, don't know how people would react with a bump so I thought it would be better to keep the talk here
It does seem that Halo Infinite, the way it looks, its Halo from old gen with 4k 60fps on it. They talk a lot about the compromises necessary to make Halo 5 60fps on Xbox One and its looks like the same situation.
A comparison between this and the gameplay video with Alex's insight would be a video I would love to see.
According to Cerny (I take it we all trust his words on this forum), RT GI should be the cheapest graphics related RT you can do. Makes sense since you can fake great looking GI on current gen consoles already.
That's not a ranking from least to most expensive tho. Just a list of potential uses for the RT hw.
In the presentation it really did sound like least to most expensive.
Yes, they used a similar graphic when talking about power consumption.
No go watch again Road to PS5 he said this is from least to most expensive.
It is at 30:50, I post the link of the video when he talks about it
The Road to PS5
PS5 lead system architect Mark Cerny provides a deep dive into PS5’s system architecture and how it will shape the future of games.
youtu.be
No go watch again Road to PS5 he said this is from least to most expensive.
It is at 30:50, I post the link of the video when he talks about it
The Road to PS5
PS5 lead system architect Mark Cerny provides a deep dive into PS5’s system architecture and how it will shape the future of games.
Global illumination is certainly not less expensive than shadows.
There's a reason nearly all games using DXR so far have used it for shadows or reflections (to complement SSR), and not full blown GI.
Yeah "real" GI will be more expensive - so that slide is very disingenuous if they mean RTGI and it has to do with the computational complexity/expense.
One thing it could be refering to is Ray Traced assisted probe diffuse global illumination. It would not be physically accurate of course like real fully RT GI (even just for the diffuse), but maybe that is what is meant there.
Halo 5 is already doing Native 4K at 60fps most of the time on Xbox One X.Digital Foundry: Halo Infinite E3 2019: A Taste Of Next-Gen Xbox Graphics?
Is this the level of graphical fidelity we should expect from launch Xbox Project Scarlett titles? Alex checks out the Halo Infinite trailer from E3 2019, dissecting the technology and showcasing how the new Slipstream Engine stacks up against prior Halo tech. Thank you to Logitech G and the...
I found this old thread, don't know how people would react with a bump so I thought it would be better to keep the talk here
It does seem that Halo Infinite, the way it looks, its Halo from old gen with 4k 60fps on it. They talk a lot about the compromises necessary to make Halo 5 60fps on Xbox One and its looks like the same situation.
Infinite is just a much bigger and much more ambitious game compared to "old gen" Halos.
Or other new things, not pure RT. There were other alternatives used in movies before pathtracing. In July 2019, Sony had this ad job.
They can maybe use Point based global illumination for example
Corralx I know in pure RT GI is much more intensive than shadows but I think he talks about mixed RT technology.
I am going to necro this thread as the update on this game from last night quite literally mentions key areas of improvement that I mentioned in this video as to why the lighting looked flat:
https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/news/inside-infinite-december-2020
It is quite gratifying to read this confirmation after the heavy amount of criticism this video got in explaining why I thought the lighting looked subpar. I would really love to hear back from some of the critics from this thread, if you do not mind posting again.
https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/news/inside-infinite-december-2020
Shadows in shadows (SSAO), GI, image contrast, and specular response in shadows were all things that I mentioned in my video.
It is quite gratifying to read this confirmation after the heavy amount of criticism this video got in explaining why I thought the lighting looked subpar. I would really love to hear back from some of the critics from this thread, if you do not mind posting again.
you were on point as most expected, I mean some of it was pretty damn obvious, so hostility you got was beyond reason. Game looked incredible flat. Glad they are taking the time to improve it.
Yup, everything you called out in Video is part of the problems 343i is addressing. I have no idea why people were attacking you when the video made so much sense.
I always knew you were right, I never understood the hate you got. I feel like some of the hate came from fanboys in denial, idk. I'm glad they are making all the changes needed to make this look better. Oh, and Kudos to you for being so fucking on point. Love your work, man.
You dance in that aura of vindication. You've earned it lmao.
You drink it in you earned it, I appreciated your video at the time.
Well I wasn't a critic back then so posting again isn't a big hurdle but let me say that it was very nice to see someone filter through the hyperbole and precisely call out both what was wrong with the presentation and how some things were acutally fine or impressive but literally weren't shown in their best light. Nice to see that confirmed and most likely corrected by the time we see more footage from the game.
