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Moral Panic

Member
Oct 28, 2017
503
I highly doubt they ship without the lighting system unchanged. My gut feel is that probes where taken out to ensure it was 60fps or some other optimisation was ordered to be done to ensure that DF couldnt say that the game wasnt 4k 60fps, and that broke the rendering. I find it hard to believe that an art director couldn't see that all the detail was gone in any covered/indoor section. That doesnt make sense.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,992
The thing that makes me mad is how "insiders" said that this Halo would look awesome, how it would mimic GOW one cut camera and how great it would be and then i saw the presentation and it doesnt look good (or even ok, i think) :( how 343i dropped the ball this hard?
I said it before, I legit think some were trolling, lol.

There will be mic drops... 😒
 

Tyaren

Character Artist
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
24,727
Pop in distance is just a setting. It was lowered in the demo to accurately represent current console settings, I think.

That makes no sense. The settings in this PC build are emulating what Series X will be able to do, not what base Xbox One is able to do if it miraculously also ran in 4K/60fps.
 

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,203
Dark Space
Alex: "Resolution is completely overrated."

Yeah boy, talk that real shit. Native 4K is worthless with the checkerboarding/reconstruction techniques we have available.

As he suggested, drop the resolution and up the effects.
 

Tappin Brews

#TeamThierry
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,869
Yea they went overboard with the blocky geometry what the flying fuck

i posted about this elsewhere but that is a very cherry picked screen to show it at its very worst. most of the demo doesnt feature those columns (which, btw no one complained about their inclusion then) any where near as prominently. also, if you pay attention to the glimpse we see of the map screen, most of the demo takes place in a valley surrounded by these columns. other gameplay sections of the ring are on higher ground and very likely wont have the same "enclosed" feel.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
this is a photoshop someone here did, I believe. The original looks way worse obviously.
Oh God. I was being generous.
halo-infinite-2020_ascension_demo_campaign_03_4k-ee6e255953bb4481b071d97ef9c10b23.png


I'd forgotten. Geez. The edit was better. I literally grabbed it to show how far behind things THAT looked... and that edit is indeed an improved version.
 

Mad_Rhetoric

Banned
May 7, 2019
3,466
lol so people were like "Oh boy cant wait for the DF analysis on Halo, gonna be hilarious, only opinion I trust!", and when he gives his opinion on what he think is going on people get mad that he's not being harsh enough? geez.

Anyway, great video and although im already happy with what I saw with Infinite in terms of gameplay/environments/sandbox/etc, if the lighting can be improved and/or if the raytracing update can make the game look better than that's great too.
 

Vinc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,387
I have to wonder what the game will run and look like on each platform. Right now, my expectation is the following. I don't really expect a lot of differences in actual graphical presets, mainly just resolution tweaks:

Xbox One: 720p with drops below to remain at 60 fps?
Xbox One X: 1440p with drops
Xbox Lockhart: 1440p with drops, raytracing coming later
Xbox Series X: 4K with drops, raytracing coming later
 

BradC00

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,156
I suspect this title was well into production before the XBSX was a twinkle in Phil Spencer's eye. You are right, but they are aiming as far as I can tell open-worldish@60fps on the base Xbox One!

This explains why there is no ray-traying at launch.

if it was built from the ground up to be an xbox one game, then you don't target 60fps for a semi-open world game, more talented studios then 343 won't even attempt that...

as soon as XSX spec goals were internally set, they should have shifted towards XSX performance, then lowered the resolution or other settings until the base xbox one hit 30fps, and then the X1X hit 60FPS. there's really no excuse for this game to look the way it does.
 

Deleted member 10847

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,343
if it was built from the ground up to be an xbox one game, then you don't target 60fps for a semi-open world game, more talented studios then 343 won't even attempt that...

as soon as XSX spec goals were internally set, they should have shifted towards XSX performance, then lowered the resolution or other settings until the base xbox one hit 30fps, and then the X1X hit 60FPS. there's really no excuse for this game to look the way it does.

Love the more talented studios part.
 

BradC00

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,156
Love the more talented studios part.

i'm not a 343 hater either, like a lot of Halo fans. But it's pretty obvious that 343 is a A or AA developer (at best) given triple A money. Supposably they shifted gears after the response for halo 5s story, which is something they did after 4 too...it's like they don't have any vision or leadership.
 

Deleted member 25042

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,077
RDR2 is 4K30 on Xbox One X, even without architectural improvements Xbox Series X is double the GPU power so it should be able to easily hit 4K60 with similar graphics settings as the One X version and would be significantly more impressive than what we've seen of halo so far

People are always comparing to PC versions at ultra settings and saying they can't it 60 fps...
RDR2 at console settings at 4k/60 is definitely doable
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
Right but Alex went into detail on the effects of global lighting and it effects on objects/characters. But doesn't talk about the polycount or detail of character models/assets themselves. Which no patch is going to fix.
He did mention the assets being high quality, drowned out by poor lighting. Also mentioned the Brute closeup being underwhelming. About what isn't going to be fixed, only 343 can say.
 

sasnak

Member
Dec 4, 2018
443
I have to wonder what the game will run and look like on each platform. Right now, my expectation is the following. I don't really expect a lot of differences in actual graphical presets, mainly just resolution tweaks:

Xbox One: 720p with drops below to remain at 60 fps?
Xbox One X: 1440p with drops
Xbox Lockhart: 1440p with drops, raytracing coming later
Xbox Series X: 4K with drops, raytracing coming later
There's no way Lockhart would have raytracing. Rumors are it's a 4 tf machine.
 

etta

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,512
i posted about this elsewhere but that is a very cherry picked screen to show it at its very worst. most of the demo doesnt feature those columns (which, btw no one complained about their inclusion then) any where near as prominently. also, if you pay attention to the glimpse we see of the map screen, most of the demo takes place in a valley surrounded by these columns. other gameplay sections of the ring are on higher ground and very likely wont have the same "enclosed" feel.
That's good to know, the initial setting in the 2018 trailer is so much better.
 

Deleted member 46804

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 17, 2018
4,129
if it was built from the ground up to be an xbox one game, then you don't target 60fps for a semi-open world game, more talented studios then 343 won't even attempt that...

as soon as XSX spec goals were internally set, they should have shifted towards XSX performance, then lowered the resolution or other settings until the base xbox one hit 30fps, and then the X1X hit 60FPS. there's really no excuse for this game to look the way it does.
Rage targeted 60FPS. It really comes down to what the developer values. 60 frames will always feel better than 30 with a hit to visual quality.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
Right but Alex went into detail on the effects of global lighting and it effects on objects/characters. But doesn't talk about the polycount or detail of character models/assets themselves. Which no patch is going to fix.
it can if they bother to do it


the narrative that DF is appeasing MS after slamming their conference is fucking hilarious. more Reach than Halo
 

Vinc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,387
There's no way Lockhart would have raytracing. Rumors are it's a 4 tf machine.

A 4tf RDNA2 machine that supports raytracing, no? I think the resolution hit makes up for the difference between it and Series X in terms of raw GPU power. And it would still be a machine capable of delivering next-gen graphical features, unlike the One X.

I guess the question is- beyond raytracing, will Halo Infinite sport any sort of next-gen rendering tech?
 
Mar 20, 2020
143
Ok, so I wasnt tripping. This was an actual claim?


So much this! After that trailer:

"Infinite looks better than alot of next gen games!!"

Wait....it might not represent the actual game....

Didnt stop the wild expectations.

I have to believe there is actually another version for Series X.

Historically, Halo's aesthetic never won any awards for its looks. Each release looked good for sure, and if Halo 5 had targetted 30fps, then I think it could have achieved better than average visuals.

There will only be a patch for the XBSX supporting Ray-Tracing. I just hope that its a very strong implementation and lifts the game's visuals considerably.
 

Reckheim

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,374
60fps, 1440p (with up-scaling) with ray tracing (if possible) should be the target for next gen.

4k is incredibly overrated; and a huge resource hog.
 
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nillapuddin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,240
I am very curious that the video in any form isn't encoded in HDR

there is certainly a lack of punch in the range of colors as they all seem fairly muted in the large environmental shots, while up close in the pelican/greenery they display more range.

I wonder if that's just their simulation for atmospheric perspective is dialed up too high or unintended side effects.

Evil Boris said they are going to do some awesome things with HDR, clearly those techniques are not present in this demonstration.
 

sasnak

Member
Dec 4, 2018
443
A 4tf RDNA2 machine that supports raytracing, no? I think the resolution hit makes up for the difference between it and Series X in terms of raw GPU power. And it would still be a machine capable of delivering next-gen graphical features, unlike the One X.

I guess the question is- beyond raytracing, will Halo Infinite sport any sort of next-gen rendering tech?
Yeah I guess it's possible. Seems like they would have to make a lot of sacrifices to make it work though.
 

Hugare

Banned
Aug 31, 2018
1,853
so basically.

halo uses dynamic lighting, but the demo was set during a time of day where there was not a lot natural light. many models (e.g. characters, items, weapons) have textures which depend on being directly hit by dynamic light to look good, and so lose detail when they are in shadow. this is one of the shortcomings of using dynamic light.

he compares the game to the last of us 2 which uses static baked in lights. tlou2 has much nicer looking dark areas because of that, but you could never bake those kind of details into an large openspace like halo.
I mean, not only TLOU 2, right?

Pretty much every good looking game this generation uses baked lighting to a certain extent

RDR 2, GoT, God of War, Horizon

Open world games even. They dont have fully dynamic time of day because of it, but its totally worth it.

Dynamic lighting only with no ray tracing is a weird choice

Excellent video, Alex
 

Iso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,188
it can if they bother to do it


the narrative that DF is appeasing MS after slamming their conference is fucking hilarious. more Reach than Halo
It's peak Era. It's not enough to be constantly negative, you also have to be upset when others aren't negative enough.

I really do think with better lightning opinions would have been a lot more forgiving. I know many still have issues with the designs themselves, but I think they fit for the most part and are clearly trying to invoke the OG trilogy.
 

Gamer17

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,399
I mean the lighting wasn't the only issue.

From top of my head
Heavy Popin
Bad stiff animation
No facial expression on npc
Low quilty looking background and LOD
Bad textures
Bad facial animation for the ending scene.(why would you even do a close up of that?)

I.m sure it will be fun though
 

Astronut325

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,948
Los Angeles, CA
Knowing it would be cross gen? There was never a chance of that.
Yes I understand. However, MS has been touting the SX as the most powerful console and that we would see it in all its glory with this showcase. And given MS's stance of old hardware not holding back the X, I feel it was a legitimate expectation to see something better than the 2018 teaser.
 

RogerL

Member
Oct 30, 2017
606
The system supports ray tracing but it isn't a switch, devs have to implement it.

DX12 DXR has raytracing for AMD GPUs (both fallback and RDNA2), what AMD probably does not have yet is DLSS2
- required to keep performance.

So if you have it running on PC against a Nvidia you should be able to run it on a XSX (possibly low quality/performance at the moment)
www.youtube.com

AMD RDNA 2 Microsoft DirectX Raytracing (DXR) Demo

Microsoft® DirectX® Raytracing (DXR) adds a new level of graphics realism to video games previously only available in movies, and AMD has collaborated with M...
 

Zedelima

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,716
I said it before, I legit think some were trolling, lol.

There will be mic drops... 😒
I wish i was
First time i played i was 17 years old, back there in 2002, and it was so fucking great...i always waited the next one because it was such a revolution with tight gameplay, graphics that were amazing and such.
Now since bungie left, the series looks average and i didn't liked the changes of 5
Its the franchise flagship from microsoft for me, and i expect it to be great and blow me away...and thats not the case
Gears on the other hand, i quite liked all their games this gen
 

JaggedSac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,988
Burbs of Atlanta


That isn't just a different time of day difference that altered that image. The lod for the tree to the left is higher. Along with the rocks on the left and on the right with better textures and geometry(possibly even grass added to the top of the rocks on the left). The structure in the distance with the elevator had red light detail added to the elevator shaft mechanism.
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,782
So from my understanding the problem is two fold
1. The art style
2. the technical choices made in combination with that artstyle.

Art style.
Its is clear that they are going for a very Halo 1 combat evolved look, back to the roots so to say.

That is all cool, but with that they took the combat evolve look which was mostly defined due to its technical limitations, and they expanded it with the same restrictions or choices but in a higher resolution game with modern rendering techniques.

This means that the models look very clean, simplified, and almost cartoony. (a bit brutal but almost like Disney Infinity's stylisation of realistic characters)
The models are styled in a very simplistic readable way, with big solid patches of values, and simple recognizable silhouettes which is great for game play, but usually only done in multiplayer games where readability and ability to identify enemies from backgrounds is key. This is def not a great choice when you are injecting it into a single player open world game where you want to be engulfed into the mystery of this big world

The problem the artstyle creates is that everything looks like its straight out of the factory, with many of the detail not found in the diffuse channels but more in the normal/roughness and metalness maps. These are all very deliberate choices and where made to support an art style and lighting improvements will only be able to push it that far.

Another thing, are the choice for the look of the underlying halo structure. Using those vertical hexagonal pillars makes everything look like straight out of minecraft and does not do the game any favors! To me it looks like a way to not having to deal with the broken sections of the halo ring and its for sure an easy way to deal with borders of gameplay spaces.

2. the technical choices made in combination with that art style.
now again the art style is not the main problem. it becomes a problem when you place, it as Alex points out, in a lighting solution that can not play well with these assets and this art style. This kind of indirect lighting can make detailed models look flat and uniformly lit, but then think what that does to an art style that doubles down on that simplified combat evolved look. Its gonna look very unimpressive.

So what can be done as a solution? Better lighting would def help and additionally, this kind of twilight lighting will only be there in short segments of the game. Since it has full day and night cycles, Most of the time it will either be day, or night.

Unfortunately nothing can be done about the artstyle this late in development. as I said, its a deliberate and very conscious choice they made very early in development.
 
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Mar 20, 2020
143
if it was built from the ground up to be an xbox one game, then you don't target 60fps for a semi-open world game, more talented studios then 343 won't even attempt that...

as soon as XSX spec goals were internally set, they should have shifted towards XSX performance, then lowered the resolution or other settings until the base xbox one hit 30fps, and then the X1X hit 60FPS. there's really no excuse for this game to look the way it does.

I mostly agree with you. I'm taking the view that the gameplay is a "Work-in-progress" as it certainly looks that way. I'm expecting it to look better at launch. I said elsewhere, that Halo 5 was 60fps on the base console. It looked ok actually if you didn't look too closely. DF did a "The Price of 60fps" piece which highlighted the compromises in that game, but I really enjoyed the fluid 60fps gameplay.

I'm not certain, but it has not been verified if the base console is going to maintain the 60fps, or is dropping down to 30fps?

If the latter is true, then like you said there really is no excuse for the state of the game which we are told represents XBSX performance profile.
 
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behOemoth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,611
I see the points, but the gameplay was set in the golden hour. It should look better artistically than any other time of the day as it is the same case for RDR 2, MGSV, Assassin's Creed or any other game.
 
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BitterFig

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,099
Did anyone mention GT7?

GT7 was by far the most underwhelming game of the PS5 conference, and it could be because not only it was 4K/60fps but also had dynamic lighting.
 

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,203
Dark Space
I am a bit confused on how it all works, I admit. But would a 4tf machine have the same raytracing capabilities as a 12tf machine? Wouldn't it have to make some resolution sacrifices at least?
The RTX 2060 has nowhere near the RT capability of the RTX 2080 Ti, and the RTX 2080 Ti makes resolution sacrifices to run RT effects.

Lockhart is not going to have good RT capabilities.
 
Mar 20, 2020
143
I am a bit confused on how it all works, I admit. But would a 4tf machine have the same raytracing capabilities as a 12tf machine? Wouldn't it have to make some resolution sacrifices at least?

The 4TF console is only ever going to be displaying the same game running on the XBSX@4K, at a reduced resolution of 1080p. That's 1/4 of the resolution, but with a 1/3rd of the power.
Should be ok. Not really aimed at the hard-core crowed, but the price conscience.

With respect to Ray-Tracing, I suspect it will be very limited.
 

Rodney McKay

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,189
I walked away to get food 10 seconds into his speech. Embarrassing model and weak mo-cap. This is from someone still looking forward to playing.
Yeah, the only games that can get away with having a character talking to the camera super close have to have EXCELLENT motion capture and at the very least really really good character models.

I just re-watched the Vaas insanity speech in Far Cry 3 and it holds up pretty well. It obviously doesn't animate as much as a current or next-gen character model, but for a 360/PS3 generation game it still holds up pretty well.

This Brute leader's face just doesn't animate nearly well enough for a that much of a close-up.

Like check out these random Orc scenes from Shadow of War. A multiconsole, open world, current gen game from 3 years ago.
Not the best looking game of the generation, but most of the orcs faces animate more naturally and believably than Infinite's Brute villain, and the game is smart enough not to zoom in so close that you instantly notice muddy skin textures or other weird issues that can appear in close view.