DF Direct: Xbox Series X Reaction - Our First Look At Next-Gen!

catpurrcat · Dec 14, 2019

Listen to the DF video starting at 5:30 until 7:00 (90 seconds) and they show a practical in-game multiplier 2x between the OneX and the 5700XT GPU.

Which makes far more sense if they are aiming for $599 or less launch price in late 2020.

Phamit · Dec 14, 2019

Proven said:
Custom AMD Navi-based GPU (12 TF RDNA)- From Windows Central

Tom Warren says 12 TF, because Phil Spencer said the gpu is twice as powerful as the one in the X.

"So when we do the math, we're over eight times the GPU power of the Xbox One, and two times what an Xbox One X is." The Xbox One X is 6 teraflops of GPU performance, so the Xbox Series X could be capable of 12 teraflops.

But this doesn't confirm it's 12 TF.

Detective Pidgey · Dec 14, 2019

Proven said:
Tom Warren and WCG have both firmly said 12 so Xbox has clearly told them 12

Didn't Tom Warren even actually already say this early this year? I recall in one of the threads that this was said. That WC basically was saying exactly what Tom had been saying all along?

It seems they were the only two to get the leak from MS or someone with connections to MS. Odd that DF, that MS partnered with for the first X reveal wasn't included though.

MrKlaw · Dec 14, 2019

ImaginaShawn said:
Good god, let's not start this not 12tflops thing. 12Tflops is all but confirmed.

confirmed?
all but confirmed?
'double x1x' leaked which sites report as 12TF?

xolsec · Dec 14, 2019

Amazing video as always, I like the conservative approach to talking about power. A 5700XT is twice as powerful as the GPU on the X and that's all MS has given to the public, a vague statement.

How do people think a GPU equivalent to a 2080 can be viable for a home console? Unless the thing costs $699 or more of course.

Now, if they actually put a 12 TF GPU on a console for $499 that will be a bit short of a miracle and the designers deserve all the praise the could get.

ImaginaShawn · Dec 14, 2019

MrKlaw said:
confirmed?
all but confirmed?
'double x1x' leaked which sites report as 12TF?

The only person in the next-gen threads that have been consistently correct has been Tom Warren, he says 12TF and strongest console. Good enough for me.

ILikeFeet · Dec 14, 2019

XolSec said:
Now, if they actually put a 12 TF GPU on a console for $499 that will be a bit short of a miracle and the designers deserve all the praise the could get.

bean counters will crucify the designers

Pop-O-Matic · Dec 14, 2019

Stef said:
mmmmmh...

Original Xbox
Xbox 360
Xbox 360 S
Xbox One
Xbox One S
Xbox One X.

So, the next one would be the sixth Xbox model.

So, more SiX than SeX.

1) you have 6 systems listed there, so the next model would be #7
2) you're forgetting the 360 E, so that would make it 8.

Sydle · Dec 14, 2019

ImaginaShawn said:
The only person in the next-gen threads that have been consistently correct has been Tom Warren, he says 12TF and strongest console. Good enough for me.

I believe Klee's recent comments firmly stated 12TF (Navi) as well?

Proven · Dec 14, 2019

Phamit said:
Tom Warren says 12 TF, because Phil Spencer said the gpu is twice as powerful as the one in the X.

But this doesn't confirm it's 12 TF.

He literally said 12TF before Phil Spencer went on record with any of this.

Proven · Dec 14, 2019

christocolus · Dec 14, 2019

Montresor said:
Series X eats monsters for breakfast. So excited for how powerful this thing is going to be.

I can't wait.

GUNDAM STARDUST · Dec 14, 2019

Detective said:
Am sorry, but that was a boring episode with nothing new that hasn't been said or read. The Hellblade segment was cheesy. Zwi? TWo?

Yep. I agree

Bobbyleejones · Dec 14, 2019

Maple said:
This used to be the standard way of doing things though, along with being the primary way to advance game design/technology. The purpose of a new console used to be to show off what the system can truly do, and what games can look like on it when they're designed from the ground up for the new hardware.

A console with no exclusive games or killer apps becomes much less exciting.

But the times are changing. I will bet that if the PS5 announces you can play past PlayStation games but need to buy them again there will be a huge shitstorm. You can say the same thing about the PS4 holding back the last of us 2 and GoT. At least you know you are getting one major first party game for the release of the next gen Xbox.

Detective Pidgey · Dec 14, 2019

Proven said:

Ah yes, this is what I meant. Not as old as earlier this year, but still relevant enough. To me it doesn't seem he's just guessing, sounds like he got exact numbers whispered to him.

Maybe we can message him, ask him if he's just guessing or actually "heard it through the grapevine" so to speak.

Proven · Dec 14, 2019

Detective Pidgey said:
Ah yes, this is what I meant. Not as old as earlier this year, but still relevant enough. To me it doesn't seem he's just guessing, sounds like he got exact numbers whispered to him.

Maybe we can message him, ask him if he's just guessing or actually "heard it through the grapevine" so to speak.

I am 100% sure he isn't guessing because if he's going to officially say something he's not going to take a best guess

BitsandBytes · Dec 14, 2019

XolSec said:
Now, if they actually put a 12 TF GPU on a console for $499 that will be a bit short of a miracle and the designers deserve all the praise the could get.

Exactly. So why are Microsoft allowing this vagueness when if they simply confirmed and said we're targeting 12TF (Navi/RDNA is already confirmed) we'd be discussing how they have managed this sorcery instead.

chromatic9 · Dec 14, 2019

Things like "do the math" could imply carefully studied performance benchmarks of a ~10tflop part on a new process and more inline with what you'd expect power consumption wise but then again the new design is curious to where it might hint at going for higher power consumption than before with a bigger GPU.

Could also mean the CPU is adding more heat since they aren't skimping out on it, we've been seeing very low power Jaguar and the GPU has been the main source with the X.

Also if people are hearing twice the perf and simply doing 6tflop x2 themselves, well 12 tflop on a new chip might generate much more than 2x the perf.

All this hangs on how good is AMD's next wave of GPUs, as right now they only have a 5700 XT for a long time now with nvidia ahead. I'm a little skeptical they can leap frog this much but who knows. I do remember big leaps in the past in the 80nm 40nm days

Ostinatto · Dec 14, 2019

I thought the voice from the black shirt dude was from the other DF white hair dude.

Dictator · Dec 14, 2019

BitsandBytes said:
Exactly. So why are Microsoft allowing this vagueness when if they simply confirmed and said we're targeting 12TF (Navi/RDNA is already confirmed) we'd be discussing how they have managed this sorcery instead.

Maybe MS are just falibile and think they are saying specific things when they maybe are not?
I like it when people talk in numbers!

catpurrcat · Dec 14, 2019

XolSec said:
Amazing video as always, I like the conservative approach to talking about power. A 5700XT is twice as powerful as the GPU on the X and that's all MS has given to the public, a vague statement.

How do people think a GPU equivalent to a 2080 can be viable for a home console? Unless the thing costs $699 or more of course.

Now, if they actually put a 12 TF GPU on a console for $499 that will be a bit short of a miracle and the designers deserve all the praise the could get.

Exactly.

IMO it's clear this is looking like a 5700XT+3700x variant for $599, maybe even $699 for Year 1 while they launch the "lesser" model for $399.

Detective Pidgey · Dec 14, 2019

Proven said:
I am 100% sure he isn't guessing because if he's going to officially say something he's not going to take a best guess

Good point there!

MrKlaw · Dec 14, 2019

Proven said:
I am 100% sure he isn't guessing because if he's going to officially say something he's not going to take a best guess

you don't need to be guessing to say 12TF if your source has said 2x X1X and you know x1x is 6TF

itchi · Dec 14, 2019

We will find out soon enough anyways. To me numbers being misreported makes far more sense than a 54 CU console.

BitsandBytes · Dec 14, 2019

Dictator said:
Maybe MS are just falibile and think they are saying specific things when they maybe are not?
I like it when people talk in numbers!

I don't know what the reasoning is for not just saying what the target TF is at this point, but do know that the discussions around this issue here and elsewhere are pretty negative and that's a shame.

nelsonroyale · Dec 14, 2019

ImaginaShawn said:
The only person in the next-gen threads that have been consistently correct has been Tom Warren, he says 12TF and strongest console. Good enough for me.

Any evidence for that? I mean people's bars are different. Mine is, nothing is confirmed on system specs until it comes from the horses mouth, or someone who actually has the system at hand.

Also, MS are being coy, just as Sony are. TFs are pretty well known in the gaming community, if not technically well understood probably by many.

Charpunk · Dec 14, 2019

catpurrcat said:
Exactly.

IMO it's clear this is looking like a 5700XT+3700x variant for $599, maybe even $699 for Year 1 while they launch the "lesser" model for $399.

Lol this is not going to be $599/$699

ILikeFeet · Dec 14, 2019

BitsandBytes said:
I don't know what the reasoning is for not just saying what the target TF is at this point, but do know that the discussions around this issue here and elsewhere are pretty negative and that's a shame.

probably because TFLOPs change between generations. they could say 8TFLOPs and people would complain it's not much more powerful than the One X when it actually could be.

I don't blame MS or Sony for ditching TFLOPs to be honest

DoradoWinston · Dec 14, 2019

Dictator said:
I like it when people talk in numbers!

011010010010000001100101011011100110101001101111011110010010000001110100011010000110010100100000011101100110100101100100011001010110111101110011001000000110101101100101011001010111000000100000011101010111000000100000011101000110100001100101001000000110011101110010011001010110000101110100001000000111011101101111011100100110101100100001

:P

low-G · Dec 14, 2019

Proven said:
Custom AMD Navi-based GPU (12 TF RDNA)- From Windows Central

And here we have pundits who don't understand tech (Tom, here) talking. This is as bad as how people talked about bits after the 16-bit era. It was core of Atari's advertising.

You'd think with the years of tflops vs performance we've already seen -- where Turing could outperform Pascal and how AMD per tflop performance was already weak compared to Pascal, how the tflop number is sadly not a good measure of performance.

So to see people trying to derive a tflop number from relative performance is frankly childish.

Proven · Dec 14, 2019

low-G said:
And here we have pundits who don't understand tech (Tom, here) talking. This is as bad as how people talked about bits after the 16-bit era. It was core of Atari's advertising.

You'd think with the years of tflops vs performance we've already seen -- where Turing could outperform Pascal and how AMD per tflop performance was already weak compared to Pascal, how the tflop number is sadly not a good measure of performance.

So to see people trying to derive a tflop number from relative performance is frankly childish.

He said 12 teraflops a month before Phil Spencer made any comment.... so how is this childish?

low-G · Dec 14, 2019

Proven said:
He said 12 teraflops a month before Phil Spencer made any comment.... so how is this childish?

He's using spurious evidence to support his claim. If anything this proves the XSX is below 12 tflops, because otherwise the GPU architecture would have to be the same as X1's...

If they actually have a 12flop GPU, the performance gain will be MUCH more than 8x x1's performance. They would say 'over 16 times the performance of X1' if you were at a 12tflop gpu.

Proven · Dec 14, 2019

low-G said:
He's using spurious evidence to support his claim. If anything this proves the XSX is below 12 tflops, because otherwise the GPU architecture would have to be the same as X1's...

If they actually have a 12flop GPU, the performance gain will be MUCH more than 8x x1's performance.

lmao

JaggedSac · Dec 14, 2019

We are talking in 4x and 2x but I'd say dollars to donuts that the XDK documentation has a discrete TF number in it.

If someone were to see a spec sheet with say ram numbers and CPU clocks, they'd see a tf number listed. Not the 4x or 2x number.

SharpX68K · Dec 14, 2019

I've been waiting.

27 minutes, yes,

BitsandBytes · Dec 14, 2019

ILikeFeet said:
probably because TFLOPs change between generations. they could say 8TFLOPs and people would complain it's not much more powerful than the One X when it actually could be.

I don't blame MS or Sony for ditching TFLOPs to be honest

I agree the TF measure probably needs to go but that isn't what I meant in that post. I'm saying *if* it turns out Series X is ~12TF Navi then all this negative discussion/arguing over the TF situation would instead have been positive discussion about how the wizards at Microsoft have crammed such power into a console at a (assumed) reasonable price.

low-G · Dec 14, 2019

Proven said:
lmao

I know they teach arithmetic in schools, 1.3 * 8 = 10.4

If this thing has a 10.4 tflop GPU and only 8 times the X1's performance, they did a terrible job with the architecture.

I'd bet we're looking at a 9 - 10 tflop GPU at this point.

RedRum · Dec 14, 2019

RivalGT said:
The few times I used it on xbox one I always got worse performance in the games I was playing, games like FIFA wouldn't connect back to the server, and I was always forced to reboot.

I think it's due to having an idle connection to the server while you're in suspend. I wonder how it works on PS4.

Also, to add, suspend/resume for apps is fucking TERRIBLE on Xbox recently for apps like Netflix, Disney +, Etc. It didn't used to be. I don't know what the fuck is going on and it sucks. It forces you to restart the whole console, so now I shut down all games/apps before I open them again.

Creation_Scapes · Dec 14, 2019

When he says it could be 12 or 4 he must be referring to Lockhart with the 4 mention right?

MaulerX · Dec 14, 2019

low-G said:
He's using spurious evidence to support his claim. If anything this proves the XSX is below 12 tflops, because otherwise the GPU architecture would have to be the same as X1's...

If they actually have a 12flop GPU, the performance gain will be MUCH more than 8x x1's performance. They would say 'over 16 times the performance of X1' if you were at a 12tflop gpu.

They're basing it on actual numbers. 12TF is double than 6TF. Simple as that.

The actual performance gain will be higher but they're not going to use a metric which is not as simple to quantify given the architectural differences.

low-G · Dec 14, 2019

MaulerX said:
They're basing it on actual numbers. 12TF is double than 6TF. Simple as that.

The actual performance gain will be higher but they're not going to use a metric which is not as simple to quantify given the architectural differences.

Alright, well prepare to be let down!

El_Chino · Dec 14, 2019

low-G said:
I know they teach arithmetic in schools, 1.3 * 8 = 10.4

If this thing has a 10.4 tflop GPU and only 8 times the X1's performance, they did a terrible job with the architecture.

I'd bet we're looking at a 9 - 10 tflop GPU at this point.

He clearly said over 8 times.

Spicy Noodles · Dec 14, 2019

mah tflopi flops who cares just enjoy the new games

AGE2019 · Dec 14, 2019

benzy said:
No, just twice as powerful as 1x, and 8x XBO.

Detective Pidgey said:
I really don't think he did. I believe it was The Verge and Windows Central and that's it.

It's disappointing but logical, back when the game was starting development there wasn't a Scarlett yet. But it's definitely a bummer.

Honestly, now seeing the trailer bits in this video from last year's trailer it just doesn't wow me much at all.

Phil never stated the GPU was 8X the XB1S GPU. What was stated was that it is OVER 8X the XB1S GPU and if you do the math 2 times the XB1X GPU.

Phil stated that when you do the math the GPU IN THE XSEX is 2 times more powerful than the XB1X GPU.
XB1X GPU = 6 TF'S X 2 = 12 TF'S

Tom Warren and Windows Central known insiders have both stated that the GPU is indeed 12 RDNA TF's.

Phamit · Dec 14, 2019

Proven said:
He literally said 12TF before Phil Spencer went on record with any of this.

Proven said:

Can't say anything against that, maybe his math based on the Spencer comments was just conformation bias to get to the 12 TF he already heard. In the end 12Tf would be twice as much as 6TF and nobody wants to get to technical in their message.

Earthed · Dec 14, 2019

I agree with their more realistic take on the matter. I'll go with that instead of potentially preparing myself to be let down in the future.

Psyrgery · Dec 14, 2019

RivalGT said:
How big is the APU going to be if its 12TF plus RT hardware, and a 8 core Ryzen 2 CPU. At 12TF its at more than double the GPU power of the OneX. A 5700 XT is already 251 mm² and thats only 9.7 TF.

DukeBlueBall did some calculations based on the mobo video showed in this years' E3 and he concluded that it would go around 350~360mm².

Plus, some guy in reddit suggested that there was enough unused space to hold 8 more CUs in the 5700XTs

Gemüsepizza · Dec 14, 2019

So even Digital Foundry are now saying it's possible that the new Xbox has about 10 RDNA TF. Are people now also going to demand for them to "stop it!!!" or for them to be banned, like in the old thread? This is embarrassing.

El_Chino said:
He clearly said over 8 times.

9 x 1.31 = 11.79

So why didn't he say over 9 times? Same with X1X: 12 RDNA TF is more than 2.5 times X1X performance, not just 2 times.

So what is more plausible:

1) People like Tom Warren not being that knowledgeable when it comes to GPU tech and misinterpreting information, or....

2) Microsoft underselling the power of their new console during reveal?

El_Chino · Dec 14, 2019

Gemüsepizza said:
So even Digital Foundry are now saying it's possible that the new Xbox has about 10 RDNA TF. Are people now also going to demand for them to "stop it!!!" or for them to be banned, like in the old thread? This is embarrassing.

9 x 1.31 = 11.79

So why didn't he say over 9 times? Same with X1X: 12 RDNA TF is more than 2.5 times X1X performance, not just 2 times.

So what is more plausible:

1) People like Tom Warren not being that knowledgeable when it comes to GPU tech and misinterpreting information, or....

2) Microsoft underselling the power of their new console during reveal?

DF themselves are assuming, so in reality no really knows except devs and MS.

jelly · Dec 14, 2019

Going by what Dark1x and Dictator say in the video that these new consoles will be more efficient with modern hardware so a comparison is difficult, correct? Also considering what Tom Warren said with regards to the two consoles maybe being 4TF and 12TF. If the Xbox One X is 6TF, wouldn't that mean a 4TF 1080p upscaled to 4K console would be friggin amazing let alone a 12TF console with modern efficient design and application?

DF Direct: Xbox Series X Reaction - Our First Look At Next-Gen!

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