DF Direct - Xbox Games Showcase Reaction

Darmik · Jul 25, 2020

The crazy thing is Digital Foundry was really impressed with the E3 2019 demo and I'm pretty sure most of that stuff is still there. I remember the smoke physics being a highlight and you still see that when Chief gets sealed in the hologram room.

It just falls apart in that open world. The lighting, the pop-in and the Brute character models just don't look right.

HommePomme · Jul 25, 2020

DjRalford said:
Third party games that are 4K 60 will also be 4K 60 on PS5, so it's nothing specially exclusive to the XSX.

The thing to remember is MS need either of the following to avoid another catastrophic failure in console sales

A - New gamers that don't own a console to buy their system.

B - PlayStation gamers to switch to their system.

The only way I can see MS picking up any kind of significant market share is if the Lockheart console is dirt cheap, as I expect a lot of parents will buy their kids that so they have a cheaper entry into new gen.

For XSX, there is absolutely no reason for anyone other than hardcore Xbox fans to even give one a second glance at the moment, or even the next couple of years looking at the showcase, and that's a shame after MS put in the effort to make it a hardware beast, I want to see MS back to their best from the x360 days but they're still going backwards, and this gen looks to be another repeat of trying to be carried by Halo, Forza and Gears, and backwards compatibility because they have nothing new for a while.

Sony picked a great gen to win considering how many people will have a PS4 library they'll be happy to carry over to the backwards compatible PS5

Phoenix Down · Jul 25, 2020

TheHunter said:
I don't.

Xbox One was a marketing disaster.

This gen alone has already gone better for MS.

dlauv said:
This would make sense if the XSX was a disaster product like the launch X1 and cost more than the PS5, which I don't see happening. But then we also have Lockhart coming.

I don't think MS has a disaster on their hands. Sony's momentum is just too high right now. I don't see the series X selling more than 30million

DjRalford · Jul 25, 2020

HommePomme said:
Sony picked a great gen to win considering how many people will have a PS4 library they'll be happy to carry over to the backwards compatible PS5

That depends on how good their BC is, MS is way ahead of Sony in BC stakes.

TheHunter · Jul 25, 2020

Phoenix Down said:
I don't think MS has a disaster on their hands. Sony's momentum is just too high right now. I don't see the series X selling more than 30million

Series X alone? Maybe not.

Series X plus lockheart? Hell yeah. I see that hitting 50ish million again. Maybe more.

Jimbobsmells · Jul 25, 2020

The comment about a software DLSS 2.0-like implementation vs the overhead of outputting 4k is a good one. If either Sony or MS (or AMD?) can get their own similar software based ML (or maybe GPGPU?) rendering it would be a great alternative to targeting 4k.

HommePomme · Jul 25, 2020

DjRalford said:
That depends on how good their BC is, MS is way ahead of Sony in BC stakes.

Would be great if we had PS1/2/3 but from what we know most PS4 games will work and some will probably even get pro-like PS5 patches, and that's all that really matters to capture lots of the current gen's momentum

Dictator · Jul 25, 2020

gamer forever said:
Alex was so cringe trying to downplay the last of us 2 and justify halo infinites graphics. Why is he even making a specific video about why Halo Infinite looks last gen? Really embarassing. John is the only one I listen to, however Richard seems quite balanced too in his views.

The biggest problem is MS getting DF over to have a look at their console. I don't know whether theres a conflict of interest in situations like this as Sony clearly haven't done the same.

Can you write this out with a bit more explanation? I am curious how you view my Motivation.

Vashetti · Jul 25, 2020

gamer forever said:
Alex was so cringe trying to downplay the last of us 2 and justify halo infinites graphics. Why is he even making a specific video about why Halo Infinite looks last gen? Really embarassing. John is the only one I listen to, however Richard seems quite balanced too in his views.

The biggest problem is MS getting DF over to have a look at their console. I don't know whether theres a conflict of interest in situations like this as Sony clearly haven't done the same.

Supposedly Sony did invite them, but plans fell through due to Covid. The Series X stuff was filmed before the worldwide lockdowns started (and presumably they saw Lockhart too, and are under strict NDA).

Typhoon20 · Jul 25, 2020

Betamaxbandit said:
This place sometimes. Are we back to Xbox is doomed? Someone needs to update the MS doomsday clock, we edging to threat level midnight

Back ?

How about you don't spin what was said and take things out of context? Saying XsX release is gonna be a disaster is not the same as saying Xbox is doomed. And quite frankly, if PS5 outsells the XsX with a bigger ratio of 2 to 1, is a disaster in my books. And I have a strong feeling that's going to happen. They've done a better job of telling consumers not to buy a XsX than they have done of selling them one. The Halo showing was a disaster. You can pretend it's not but it's everywhere. Or did DF become toxic as well? lol. Halo was supposed to be the next big thing. Which ironically it did achieve. But not in a way you'd want.

M4xim1l1ano · Jul 25, 2020

Phoenix Down said:
I don't think MS has a disaster on their hands. Sony's momentum is just too high right now. I don't see the series X selling more than 30million

maybe the question should be more GamePass vs PS5 in sales? XSX, Lockhart, PC and Xcloud are all means to push GamePass.

monketron · Jul 25, 2020

The biggest weirdness for me is why they didn't have that Infinite trailer running off an XSX. It must be in a fairly rough state. RIP 343i devs for the next few months I imagine the crunch is going to be insane.

Bold One · Jul 25, 2020

I dont think the Halo Infinite showing was a disaster - once again, the marketing and head honchos at Xbox including Phil have thrown 343 under the bus here. Anyone watching the pre-show can attest to the Halo Halo Halo hype.

What I saw looked fine and even engaging with the freedom there was to move around the terrain. What the demo was missing was major set piece to show off those compute units at a crisp 60.

TheHunter · Jul 25, 2020

Typhoon20 said:
Back ?

How about you don't spin what was said and take things out of context? Saying XsX release is gonna be a disaster is not the same as saying Xbox is doomed. And quite frankly, if PS5 outsells the XsX with a bigger ratio of 2 to 1, is a disaster in my books. And I have a strong feeling that's going to happen. They've done a better job of telling consumers not to buy a XsX than they have done of selling them one. The Halo showing was a disaster. You can pretend it's not but it's everywhere. Or did DF become toxic as well? lol. Halo was supposed to be the next big thing. Which ironically it did achieve. But not in a way you'd want.

I would not describe anything as disaster.

Halo fans liked what they saw gameplay wise. The youtube videos are nothing but positive likes.

Bulby · Jul 25, 2020

Dictator

I guess you will cover things like this is your in depth video.

I dont understand why the engine is so limited by current gen, that they cant extend draw distance (as a minimum upgrade) on more powerful hardware. I can understand why it would be like this on a base Xbox One. But to not be able to push these settings out on more powerful hardware seems woefully shortsighted.

Feels like we are seeing literally an Xbox One game in 4K 60fps. There must be more to this engine than just increasing frame rate and pixel counts, right?

Phoenix Down · Jul 25, 2020

Lephotographeur said:
maybe the question should be more GamePass vs PS5 in sales? XSX, Lockhart, PC and Xcloud are all means to push GamePass.

True. MS is trying to carve out their own market. I can respect them for that. They can't do what Sony does. MS is working on their own identity . If MS can just show me good looking exclusives , I will buy the console

Detail · Jul 25, 2020

Honestly the graphics of Halo, whilst dissapointing aren't the biggest issue for me.

The open world format is, every single game coming out now thinks it has to be a rockstar game, with side quests everywhere and huge open worlds, 50+ hour experiences or a GAAS model.

Why can't we just have narrative driven linear AAA experiences in the 12-25 hour range? That's what Halo has been and that's what has made it great.

Even Gears 5, the weakest sections in that game were the open world sections, completely pointless padding and added nothing to the game (apart from the cool lightning and tornados section.) Gears has always worked better as a linear experience.

Quality over quantity imo, I am just burned out on open world.

Skeff · Jul 25, 2020

Do we have confirmation that weve seen anything running on the series X yet? I cant be 100% sure we have.

I think Forza probably was but we dont know, one of the most interesting tidbit in the DF video for me was that the Forza trailer was 30fps. I'm sure the game will be still 60fps but I just dont think the trailer is reflective of what we will be playing.

Yautja_Warrior · Jul 25, 2020

Definitely agree with DF, it's disappointing Microsoft are still not being clear on what machines these games are running on and the lack of gameplay in many of the trailers again.

DrDeckard · Jul 25, 2020

Phoenix Down said:
I don't think MS has a disaster on their hands. Sony's momentum is just too high right now. I don't see the series X selling more than 30million

so you think the next xbox will sell less than the xbox one?

I can only see MS being happy with that if they convert everyone to PC and gamepass subs..which i dont see being possible.

Series X needs to sell more than 50 million in 7 years. I can't see why it wouldnt.

Deleted member 21709 · Jul 25, 2020

Skeff said:
Do we have confirmation that weve seen anything running on the series X yet? I cant be 100% sure we have.

I think Forza probably was but we dont know, one of the most interesting tidbit in the DF video for me was that the Forza trailer was 30fps. I'm sure the game will be still 60fps but I just dont think the trailer is reflective of what we will be playing.

Forza seems the least likely. Sounds like its years away.

travisbickle · Jul 25, 2020

Why didn't they show ray tracing for Halo? They literally had a slowed down clip of Ori to show off 120fps, so it was hardly against the flow of the show to have a clip showing the ray tracing for their most famous game.

Typhoon20 · Jul 25, 2020

Lephotographeur said:
maybe the question should be more GamePass vs PS5 in sales? XSX, Lockhart, PC and Xcloud are all means to push GamePass.

How do you measure something like that though.

I doubt Sony or MS make money from selling hardware. Hardware is used to bring in customers, who spend a lot of money on your software and services. That's why hardware is key. If you sell less XSX that's less potential gamepass members. And do all 50m Xbox One players stay in the xbox ecosystem ? How many switch to the PS? More than vice versa? There are key factors that affect gamepass and a poor hardware and game showing negatively affects gamepass as well.

It's baffling to see Xbox knock it out of the park with the XSX reveal barely a year ago and then fumble so badly today with next gen. Lockhart will release what, barely 3 months after its first showing? They need Lockhart to be real cheap if they want a bigger market share. Right now it's their biggest chip short term.

Gravemind IV · Jul 25, 2020

All this time I had people telling me that xbox one wouldn't chain the series x in regard to halo. Even Microsoft and 343 said that Infinite was being tailored to the series X.

This entire reveal has made me think twice about even getting a series X and has drained my hype for Halo. Especially with them saying that it might just be Infinite for the entire gen. Halo is the reason I stay with Xbox and knowing we might not get a 'pure' series X Halo, well..

There's grass disappearing a meter in front of chief. At the part where he is on the elevator and they slowly turn to look at the world, you see mountains and clouds popping in.

I am playing Ghost of Tsushima at the moment and it's bewildering how that one looks at times and what we saw from Halo on a supposedly 9x as powerful machine.

TheHunter · Jul 25, 2020

Typhoon20 said:
How do you measure something like that though.

I doubt Sony or MS make money from selling hardware. Hardware is used to bring in customers, who spend a lot of money on your software and services. That's why hardware is key. If you sell less XSX that's less potential gamepass members. And do all 50m Xbox One players stay in the xbox ecosystem ? How many switch to the PS? More than vice versa? There are key factors that affect gamepass and a poor hardware and game showing negatively affects gamepass as well.

It's baffling to see Xbox knock it out of the park with the XSX reveal barely a year ago and then fumble so badly today with next gen. Lockhart will release what, barely 3 months after its first showing? They need Lockhart to be real cheap if they want a bigger market share. Right now it's their biggest chip short term.

I mean...by how many users you have on the ecosystem.

And the answer to that is apparently enough to go all in on this strategy. Nadalla and Phil may be many things but foolish idea chaser he is now. Balmer and Matrick on the other hand...

Sems4arsenal · Jul 25, 2020

I still can't believe the final section of the demo with that evil guy.

Legit looks like a PS2 cutscene.

The open world itself in 4K is actually not bad at all, but that final character.....yikes!

jelly · Jul 25, 2020

Detail said:
Honestly the graphics of Halo, whilst dissapointing aren't the biggest issue for me.

The open world format is, every single game coming out now thinks it has to be a rockstar game, with side quests everywhere and huge open worlds, 50+ hour experiences or a GAAS model.

Why can't we just have narrative driven linear AAA experiences in the 12-25 hour range? That's what Halo has been and that's what has made it great.

Even Gears 5, the weakest sections in that game were the open world sections, completely pointless padding and added nothing to the game (apart from the cool lightning and tornados section.) Gears has always worked better as a linear experience.

Quality over quantity imo, I am just burned out on open world.

I'm worried about that too. If all we are doing is missions like that over and over and content upgrades are just variations, it's going to be very dull and tiresome. I do think the gun play looks quite fun, grapple hook so far doesn't look too exciting yet though.

I think people are being a bit harsh on DF, they are disappointed but they do think it looks better in 4K but you just don't see a lot of the detail so easily and the game is made for Xbox One foremost, they aren't sticking the boot in, just reality. I think they were spot on if they just released this for Xbox One then had a patch down the line for Series X people might not take it so badly. Microsoft pitched it as the second coming.

I agree on the other things, CGI trailers, what is the point, so disappointing.

DjRalford · Jul 25, 2020

Gravemind IV said:
All this time I had people telling me that xbox one wouldn't chain the series x in regard to halo. Even Microsoft and 343 said that Infinite was being tailored to the series X.

This entire reveal has made me think twice about even getting a series X and has drained my hype for Halo. Especially with them saying that it might just be Infinite for the entire gen. Halo is the reason I stay with Xbox and knowing we might not get a 'pure' series X Halo, well..

There's grass disappearing a meter in front of chief. At the part where he is on the elevator and they slowly turn to look at the world, you see mountains and clouds popping in.

I am playing Ghost of Tsushima at the moment and it's bewildering how that one looks at times and what we saw from Halo on a supposedly 9x as powerful machine.

I kind of understand the pop in and disappearing assets if they're running it on an equivalent PC, the texture streaming would be a bit slower than what the XSX SSD is supposed to be able to handle.

Dictator · Jul 25, 2020

DjRalford said:
I kind of understand the pop in and disappearing assets if they're running it on an equivalent PC, the texture streaming would be a bit slower than what the XSX SSD is supposed to be able to handle.

The SSD is most definitely not the reason why this game has popin - the game is probably far too high res for the XSX GPU to handle lots of transparent textures on screen at the same time, or too high res for it to be shading so many triangles on screen at the same time. The game targetting 4K is murdering its visuals probably.

You can test this in many open world games that came out this gen - on PC if you turn up the vegetation and draw distance on PC with competent CPUs at 4K, you immediately are hit with a wall of GPU performance when you enter forests: check out Red Dead Redemption 2, GTA V, or Watch Dogs 2 outside of San Fransisco near the woods.

DjRalford · Jul 25, 2020

Dictator said:
The SSD is most definitely not the reason why this game has popin - the game is probably far too high res for the XSX GPU to handle lots of transparent textures on screen at the same time, or too high res for it to be shading so many triangles on screen at the same time. The game targetting 4K is murdering its visuals probably.

You can test this in many open world games that came out this gen - on PC if you turn up the vegetation and draw distance on PC with competent CPUs at 4K, you immediately are hit with a wall of GPU performance when you enter forests: check out Red Dead Redemption 2, GTA V, or Watch Dogs 2 outside of San Fransisco near the woods.

Ooooo, that's interesting, thank you.

Dust · Jul 25, 2020

I agree about the CG/visual works, shit should be a thing of the past unless mixed with in-engine/actual gameplay.

I bet MS hopes some people will get fooled that State of Decay CG is how the actual game will look.

eso76 · Jul 25, 2020

Looks like there isn't a lot to be excited about for XsX launch, and in this state the show should have concentrated on enhancements to major Xbox One releases.

15 seconds mention of gears 5 and fh4 looking better on XsX and not detailing how or showing it.
With the lack of next gen exclusives at launch I was expecting a 5 mins in depth look at how XsX is going to make your current library better.

Ray traced Control and Exodus would have helped.
Path traced Minecraft wasn't there.

Also
Flight Simulator wasn't there which has me worried the console version isn't coming anytime soon, or isn't looking too hot atm.
Hellblade 2 having nothing new to show to me means what we saw was representative of nothing.

Forza was an impressive showcase, until you realise the game 1,5 years away at best and who knows what it will really look like by then.

We know the hardware is capable, but it looks like MS was either late getting devkits out or just had the timing wrong to have an impactful release this fall.

Phoenix Down · Jul 25, 2020

DrDeckard said:
so you think the next xbox will sell less than the xbox one?

I can only see MS being happy with that if they convert everyone to PC and gamepass subs..which i dont see being possible.

Series X needs to sell more than 50 million in 7 years. I can't see why it wouldnt.

I do sir, especially out of the gate. I just don't see much excitement for their console. Gamepass may be successful but units sold will be terrible.

Gravemind IV · Jul 25, 2020

DjRalford said:
I kind of understand the pop in and disappearing assets if they're running it on an equivalent PC, the texture streaming would be a bit slower than what the XSX SSD is supposed to be able to handle.

Perhaps, but as egregious as the grass? Keep in mind how many people had to sign off on this. Did noone say anything?

Typhoon20 · Jul 25, 2020

TheHunter said:
I would not describe anything as disaster.

Halo fans liked what they saw gameplay wise. The youtube videos are nothing but positive likes.

I looked at a few (Halo, Xbox channel and IGN) like to dislike ratio is 5-1. Almost like Anthem gameplay trailer. I don't think that's particularly good.

Also I wouldn't say '' Halo fans '' liked it. Plenty of them liked it, but plenty of them hated it as well. Me being one of them. I would say it's quite mixed.

I do consider the showing a disaster. Others might not. That's fine. Mainly because this is Xboxs biggest flagship title with great expectations to recapture the magic of Bungies original trilogy... and it looked so... dated. In almost every way.

jelly · Jul 25, 2020

Dust said:
I agree about the CG/visual works, shit should be a thing of the past unless mixed with in-engine/actual gameplay.

I bet MS hopes some people will get fooled that State of Decay CG is how the actual game will look.

I was sort of fooled just because Naughty Dog stuff looks that good but when it said State of Decay at the end, I was like no chance.

TheHunter · Jul 25, 2020

Typhoon20 said:
I looked at a few (Halo, Xbox channel and IGN) like to dislike ratio is 5-1. Almost like Anthem gameplay trailer. I don't think that's particularly good.

Also I wouldn't say '' Halo fans '' liked it. Plenty of them liked it, but plenty of them hated it as well. Me being one of them. I would say it's quite mixed.

I do consider the showing a disaster. Others might not. That's fine. Mainly because this is Xboxs biggest flagship title with great expectations to recapture the magic of Bungies original trilogy... and it looked so... dated. In almost every way.

The one's I;m looking at have 9 to 1 like to dislike.

DrDeckard · Jul 25, 2020

Phoenix Down said:
I do sir, especially out of the gate. I just don't see much excitement for their console. Gamepass may be successful but units sold will be terrible.

I thinhk the only thing saving both these consoles from being slow out the gate is the current situation. The covid bump will save them both, trust me. This generations console launch is looking shit from both sides tbh.

TheHunter · Jul 25, 2020

Phoenix Down said:
I do sir, especially out of the gate. I just don't see much excitement for their console. Gamepass may be successful but units sold will be terrible.

I don't really see huge excitement for either of them TBH.

Covid has really effected the game pipeline, not just for themselves but 3rd party too. We still haven't seen CoD 2020 and really haven't seen many other big hitters outside of AC and a brief Farcry 6.

Iwao · Jul 25, 2020

They echo similar complaints to most others here, especially the pointless CGI trailers.

AntiMacro said:
That whole '30 fps doesn't matter' thing is right. Every poll people want to put up here or on Twitter or whatever, things like 'gameplay' or 'framerate' will win as more important - but the reality is people want graphics, they buy graphics, and they don't really give a shit if the framerate is 60 fps, 30 fps, or all over the place.

Correct. At the 10 minute mark, they make a great point about this. It doesn't matter if "well it's 60fps" is used to excuse the cross-gen compromises of a flagship next-gen game. Graphics are actually the easier sell than anything else which is why the benefits of things like the SSD despite being a big deal are hard to explain to consumers.

Dust · Jul 25, 2020

DrDeckard said:
I thinhk the only thing saving both these consoles from being slow out the gate is the current situation. The covid bump will save them both, trust me. This generations console launch is looking shit from both sides tbh.

There is genuine mainstream excitement and hype for PS5 tho, there is nothing like that for Xbox. People will get PS5 for Spider-Man and well...because it is PS5.
Xbox showing multiple games that are probably 2+ years off just basically hammers down "why would I get Xbox in the near future" point.
I do understand it was either that or just Halo, The Medium and some indies and oh boy now that would have been a shitshow. This was "damned if you, damned if you do not" situation.

meenseen84 · Jul 25, 2020

Cactuar said:
I don't understand the logic of making your big 12 TF Xbox and then when it comes times to showcase those games using a PC lol. And not being upfront about it, it's very shady.

It was an Xbox Games Showcase. Doesn't say Series X showcase at all.

sncvsrtoip · Jul 25, 2020

AegonSnake said:
Mgsv isn't even a current gen game. Its a last gen game running at 60 fps on current gen hardware. Halo looks a gen ahead in every aspect.

For sure not in character models

Vimto · Jul 25, 2020

meenseen84 said:
It was an Xbox Games Showcase. Doesn't say Series X showcase at all.

And that's in itself, is a problem.

If you're releasing premium console this holiday, your big event should put it front and center. Like Sony did.

DrDeckard · Jul 25, 2020

Dust said:
There is genuine mainstream excitement and hype for PS5 tho, there is nothing like that for Xbox. People will get PS5 for Spider-Man and well...because it is PS5.
Xbox showing multiple games that are probably 2+ years off just basically hammers down "why would I get Xbox in the near future" point.
I do understand it was either that or just Halo, The Medium and some indies and oh boy now that would have been a shitshow. This was "damned if you, damned if you do not" situation.

I am genuinely out of touch so I do apologise, where is the mainstream hype for the PS5? on twitter? I have seen polls and the votes seem to be going exactly the way I would expect from the current marketshare. seems to be like 60/30 split on votes. I see memes of Craig and the ps5 console.

I haven't seen HYPE! outside of the fans, who should be hyped.

Deleted member 11479 · Jul 25, 2020

DrDeckard said:
I am genuinely out of touch so I do apologise, where is the mainstream hype for the PS5? on twitter? I have seen polls and the votes seem to be going exactly the way I would expect from the current marketshare. seems to be like 60/30 split on votes. I see memes of Craig and the ps5 console.

I haven't seen HYPE! outside of the fans, who should be hyped.

Sony are doubling the initial production of PS5 to meet the demand.

You have over 6000 posts on this forum, yet you plead ignorance...

DrDeckard · Jul 25, 2020

eerik9000 said:
Sony are doubling the initial production of PS5 to meet the demand.

You have over 6000 posts on this forum, yet you plead ignorance...

They are doubling production due to Covid, a boom that every facet of the tech industry is seeing.

Of course there is hype for the PS5 on this forum, I would't expect anything else for a forum like this. We are dedicated :)

I wouldn't call this forum mainstream hype.

Both consoles will perform extremely well, you can bet on that. They will see a huge bump in sales due to Covid.

Phoenix Down · Jul 25, 2020

TheHunter said:
I don't really see huge excitement for either of them TBH.

Covid has really effected the game pipeline, not just for themselves but 3rd party too. We still haven't seen CoD 2020 and really haven't seen many other big hitters outside of AC and a brief Farcry 6.

Sony increasing production of the PS5 is not a sign of excitement? Their metrics must be showing a large amount of demand.

TheHunter · Jul 25, 2020

Phoenix Down said:
Sony increasing production of the PS5 is not a sign of excitement? Their metrics must be showing a large amount of demand.

Could be.

Or could just be early adopters and demand falls off a cliff. Too early to make accurate estimates other than basic assessments imo. I think Sony will still sell more and most likely be a 2 to 1 again. I think 30 million is a very conservative estimate for next gen Xbox.

eso76 · Jul 25, 2020

Gravemind IV said:
Perhaps, but as egregious as the grass? Keep in mind how many people had to sign off on this. Did noone say anything?

The problem with the grass is..it's tall.
I saw it popping out of existence when the view raises and the grass thinks it's not in the player's field of view anymore because the base is offscreen.
I think that's an easy fix for the grass disappearing close to the player.
Stuff in the distance, no idea.

I really hope UE5 does what it promises and everyone switches to that.

DF Direct - Xbox Games Showcase Reaction

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