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DF Direct: PS5: The full technical specification

Pryme

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
BradGrenz said:
The difference is, whatever you are doing with the 2.4GB/s SSD, you can do twice as much of it on the PS5.
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No. You won't do 'twice as much'. You'll do it twice as fast. In practice this will likely boil down to devs using more trickery or slower transitions when needed.
from a visual point of view, the SSD speed difference doesn't close the GPU gap in any meaningful way. At least that's how I understand it

BradGrenz said:
And the difference is while load times will be short on XSX, they basically will not exist on PS5.
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Double of a very small number is also a small number too. If load times are non existent on the PS5, they'd be insignificant on the SeriesX.
 
nelsonroyale

nelsonroyale

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,128
Pryme said:
No. You won't do 'twice as much'. You'll do it twice as fast. In practice this will likely boil down to devs using more trickery or slower transitions when needed.
from a visual point of view, the SSD speed difference doesn't close the GPU gap in any meaningful way. At least that's how I understand it



Double of a very small number is also a small number too. If load times are non existent on the PS5, they'd be insignificant on the SeriesX.
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This can also affect LoD...In those elements pertaining to SSD, the differences will be there, just like differences will be present in the GPU differences.
 

Rourkey

Member
Nov 14, 2017
36
I get the impression they've bumped up the clocks late in the day to try and get close to the teraflops of the Series X (Got to get it to double digits). If they have I expect it to be a loud machine.

I think it will be quite far behind SX graphically hence the focus on the SSD and sound features
 
Principate

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
Berserker976 said:
The PS5 has a weaker GPU, no one is disputing that. The thing people are missing is that it's not significantly weaker. Both consoles are very close in power, with the Xbox a bit ahead. There will be differences, but for the most part they will be minor.

Games might run with slightly more stable framerates, and with slightly better resolution on Xbox, but load a few seconds faster on PS5. The differences will be minimal.
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I'd say it is substantially weaker, those are some very high clocks for the PS5 whereas the XB1 seem very conservative in comparison. I wouldn't be surprised if the PS5 had very high thermal load.
 
•79•

•79•

Banned
Sep 22, 2018
608
South West London, UK
Tiago Rodrigues said:
"Teraflops is a metric, it's not really equivalent to performance" - Digital Foundry
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Which was the gist of what Jason was saying in the old next gen speculation threads before he stopped posting there. I believe this was what Matt was hinting at too.

Trouble is those threads were dominated by people who thought they knew what they talking about, who were never in a position to make anything for the hardware they were discussing and who have wound themselves up into a frenzy about a number they arbitrarily assigned importance to.

Fools.
 

Deleted member 4869

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,753
Rourkey said:
I get the impression they've bumped up the clocks late in the day to try and get close to the teraflops of the Series X (Got to get it to double digits). If they have I expect it to be a loud machine.

I think it will be quite far behind SX graphically hence the focus on the SSD and sound features
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That makes no sense at all, considering the power gap between them is WAY less than the one between OG PS4 and Xbox One. With the current power gap between the next consoles, graphical differents will be almost negligible.
 
Respawn

Respawn

Member
Dec 5, 2017
780
Innolis said:
3rd party devs will walk the path of least resistance. It's just how it is. Series X seems to be the more straightforward of the bunch, just throw raw power at it. I'm surprised that sony went with a more customized solution after PS4. It seems to me they created a machine tailored to what their devs may have wanted to do rather than an compute monster aimed at giving massive power to everyone. The SSD and I/O speeds are staggering but again, I don't see 3rd party devs allocating resources to maximize their potential since the ssd on the xbox, while not as fast, is super fast as well. I expect xbox to become the primary platform for 3rd party studios.
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You're actually saying the ssd in the PS5 won't be utilized by 3rd party devs👀? Even when the man said that was the number one request from them?
What makes you say something like this? Weird.
 
Zedark

Zedark

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,719
The Netherlands
Lagspike_exe said:
Nobody knows since its RDNA2 on most likely more advanced (or optimized) node than 7nm.
But yeah, 2.23GHz is almost surely at the high end of the power curve.
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We know that MS are using the 7nm+ node, so Sony probably are as well. That's pretty much cutting edge (RTA 2080 Ti is 12nm, and 7nm+ is better than 7nm, which is the next process node step after 12nm). These machines are using as efficient a process as is conceivable for them.
 
Wollan

Wollan

Mostly Positive
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,814
Norway but living in France
Dark1x I would love for DF to do a GPU frequency test. How much does raising the clock XX% effect real world performance on the same given device? It's an above linear increase according to Cerny (when comparing the narrow 32 CU to the wide 48 CU config). To discover how the PS5 higher-frequency "there is a lot to be said about faster" approach could make it punch above its TF target.

This assumes that you are able to turn off/on CU's as we are essentially testing a narrow configuration vs a wide configuration.

He also noted that it's easier to feed 36 CU's with work than 48 CU's comparatively but that's probably harder to check.
 
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Xeontech

Xeontech

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,059
It's so funny to see the tables turned. When Xbone was 50% less, it wasn't going to make a difference graphically. It was too close to make a difference.

Now PS5 is 15% less, and there's apparently massive canyons between them.

I expect there to be differences, but not Xbone/ps4 level differences. Not even X/pro lvl differences.
 
Hana-Bi

Hana-Bi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,010
Germany
I still don't understand the narrow and fast concept. I thought that you'd rather go wide and slow but narrow and fast seems to be more efficent? Have we real world data to compare those two concepts?
 
Gay Bowser

Gay Bowser

Member
Oct 30, 2017
17,707
•79• said:
Which was the gist of what Jason was saying in the old next gen speculation threads before he stopped posting there. I believe this was what Matt was hinting at too.

Trouble is those threads were dominated by people who thought they knew what they talking about, who were never in a position to make anything for the hardware they were discussing and who have wound themselves up into a frenzy about a number they arbitrarily assigned importance to.

Fools.
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Yup. Focusing on one single number as a metric for overall system performance is never a good idea. Not for cars, not for computers, not for consoles.

Both of these machines are very close in performance, and they each have some advantages and disadvantages. Honestly, I think the games will end up being virtually indistinguishable outside of all but the closest of analysis.

That said, if going with a smaller APU die allows Sony to undercut Microsoft in price, that is 100% going to be the better decision as far as success in the actual marketplace is concerned.
 
Zedark

Zedark

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Oct 25, 2017
14,719
The Netherlands
Respawn said:
You're actually saying the ssd in the PS5 won't be utilized by 3rd party devs👀? Even when the man said that was the number one request from them?
What makes you say something like this? Weird.
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The XSX has an SSD as well. Cerny said the devs requested an SSD, not that they demanded 5 GB/s or more specifically. Both SSDs are top of the line, but PS5's goes beyond even that with its 5.5 GB/s.

I would say it's a valid question if they will use the boost from XSX's to PS5's for anything beyond faster loading times. Which would still be quite nice, of course, but it would not be like the XSX will be made to crumble in comparison to PS5, as I have a hunch (no more than that at this stage, of course) that 3rd party games won't do anything unique to PS5 due to that SSD speed differential compared to XSX (for the reason explained in the next paragraph).

And then there's the question of rendering speed: you need to do something with the data you load in, so the question becomes whether the XSX's lower SSD speed introduces a bottleneck, or if the GPU/CPU/RAM remain the bottleneck in frame-to-frame rendering. In this latter case, the SSD would not be giving added benefits to the PS5, as those games would not be IO bound but CPU/GPU bound.

In short, I don't have a good idea which of the two will do better in which situations. The DF comparisons will be very interesting for sure.
 
FF Seraphim

FF Seraphim

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Oct 26, 2017
13,724
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Do we even have a rough estimate when a 7gb/s ssd will even be available to consumers? I am terrified at how much something like that will cost.
 
Zedark

Zedark

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Oct 25, 2017
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FF Seraphim said:
Do we even have a rough estimate when a 7gb/s ssd will even be available to consumers? I am terrified at how much something like that will cost.
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I believe Cerny said he expects them by the end of the year in his presentation. It will be mighty expensive I think, but the price will go down over time (and you still have internal SSD space in the meanwhile).
 

Deleted member 15395

Unshakable Resolve
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Oct 27, 2017
3,145
Respawn said:
You're actually saying the ssd in the PS5 won't be utilized by 3rd party devs👀? Even when the man said that was the number one request from them?
What makes you say something like this? Weird.
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That's not what I said at all. I said I doubt they'll utilize the full potential of the drive given the XSX is already fast enough.
 

WolfForager

Member
Oct 27, 2017
248
My thinking on the SSD at the moment is that Sony will make it part of their QA checks/pass for games to ensure that there are minimum load times i.e. instant game boot from the menu, no waiting after deaths, instant fast travel etc., basically force developers to use it. Otherwise, what's the point of all their R&D on this?
 
ArchedThunder

ArchedThunder

Uncle Beerus
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Oct 25, 2017
19,061
WolfForager said:
My thinking on the SSD at the moment is that Sony will make it part of their QA checks/pass for games to ensure that there are minimum load times i.e. instant game boot from the menu, no waiting after deaths, instant fast travel etc., basically force developers to use it. Otherwise, what's the point of all their R&D on this?
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Forcing devs to have zero load times is a very bad idea.
 
Pryme

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
next gen, most developers will shoot for native 4K 60fps on both consoles. This won't be like the PS 4 Pro vs Xbox One X scenario where decisions made on prioritizing resolution for the One X often worsened frame rates or stopped devs from adding additional visual Elements.

The additional GPU capability on the Series X should be available for visual enhancements, improved ray tracing (or better RT performance) and possibly better frame rates.
 
Philippo

Philippo

Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
7,913
You can sense the excitement in their voices throughout the video, they are so hyped that both consoles are so advanced yet different, allowing them to tap into so many topics and testing possibilities. 2020 is gonna be wild for DF for sure.

Now, a question: considering the smaller APU but an incredibly high frequency that will need appropriate cooling, and all the custom silicon and whatnot, do you guys think there is a chance for a 399$ PS5 out of the box?
 
FF Seraphim

FF Seraphim

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Oct 26, 2017
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ArchedThunder said:
Forcing devs to have zero load times is a very bad idea.
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Is it though? Making sure devs actually optimize for your system instead of just working to make sure it is good enough.

Anyway, I honestly don't think we will see many 3rd party devs utilize the speed of the PS5 ssd in the first year or two anyway. I am happy that we at least have a 2.5gb/s baseline instead of whatever HDD we had this gen.
Sony better be bringing the receipts when it comes time to show off their games because that will be one of the key factors in all this.
How the games look and run, as well as price. If Sony can sell this system at $399 and release with a flagship title, not Knack 3, then they should be okay.
 
Bunzy

Bunzy

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Nov 1, 2018
2,205
so can we look at a regular amd 5700 and overclock it to 2.23ghz and basically see performance we will get worse case if this thing doesn't have most of rdna 2 efficiency?

seems like the ps5 should perform a little under a 5700xt that's overclocked and I am watching those beat out 2080 supers on YouTube. If it is truly rdna 2 then it will only be better
 
ArchedThunder

ArchedThunder

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Oct 25, 2017
19,061
FF Seraphim said:
Is it though? Making sure devs actually optimize for your system instead of just working to make sure it is good enough.

Anyway, I honestly don't think we will see many 3rd party devs utilize the speed of the PS5 ssd in the first year or two anyway. I am happy that we at least have a 2.5gb/s baseline instead of whatever HDD we had this gen.
Sony better be bringing the receipts when it comes time to show off their games because that will be one of the key factors in all this.
How the games look and run, as well as price. If Sony can sell this system at $399 and release with a flagship title, not Knack 3, then they should be okay.
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WolfForager said:
For what reason? (I'm not a programmer of any sort, so am genuinely curious.)
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It would be an arbitrary restriction that would piss devs off. Not every game is going to be able to instantly load. It'd be like saying MS should force devs to use RT. Let the devs do what they want with the power provided.
 
Dictator

Dictator

Digital Foundry
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Oct 26, 2017
4,931
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Cross post from the other threads.

I think the gpu and CPU clocking Thing will work like this, i have it on a good hunch:

Devs will prioritise modes like high clocked GPU and lower clockd CPU, or the other way around. That is basically what the presentation says, they will have trouble hitting full speeds on both parts simultaneously due to utilisation (which is a bit duh), so one Part being higherclocked requires an under utilisation of the other. So a game that is mostly gpu limited will use a gpu Mode, a very intense open world game or... Some other Design requiring more CPU will use a CPU Mode. So underclocking the GPU there.

This of course assume that games do not really heavily utilise both parts at the same time, in which case, like a 60 Assassin's Creed game as we see on PC. Or a game with variable drs and a lot of CPU Stuff. Or any ambtious game that want to do both simulation and graphical things.

The one Part being higher clocked, requires an under utilisation of the other. Hence why freefloating resolution game with very preise dynamic resolution scaling, like Doom, Titan Fall 2, modern warfare etc. Will all probably need to be in the Mode for GPU Power. They are already maxing the GPU as is due to their Design.
 
ArchedThunder

ArchedThunder

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Oct 25, 2017
19,061
Dictator said:
Cross post from the other threads.

I think the gpu and CPU clocking Thing will work like this, i have it on a good hunch:

Devs will prioritise modes like high clocked GPU and lower clockd CPU, or the other way around. That is basically what the presentation says, they will have trouble hitting full speeds on both parts simultaneously due to utilisation (which is a bit duh), so one Part being higherclocked requires an under utilisation of the other. So a game that is mostly gpu limited will use a gpu Mode, a very intense open world game or... Some other Design requiring more CPU will use a CPU Mode. So underclocking the GPU there.

This of course assume that games do not really heavily utilise both parts at the same time, in which case, like a 60 Assassin's Creed game as we see on PC. Or a game with variable drs and a lot of CPU Stuff. Or any ambtious game that want to do both simulation and graphical things.

The one Part being higher clocked, requires an under utilisation of the other. Hence why freefloating resolution game with very preise dynamic resolution scaling, like Doom, Titan Fall 2, modern warfare etc. Will all probably need to be in the Mode for GPU Power. They are already maxing the GPU as is due to their Design.
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So would you expect some games like the Assassin's Creed example to clock both down?
 
FF Seraphim

FF Seraphim

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Oct 26, 2017
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Bunzy said:
so can we look at a regular amd 5700 and overclock it to 2.23ghz and basically see performance we will get worse case if this thing doesn't have most of rdna 2 efficiency?

seems like the ps5 should perform a little under a 5700xt that's overclocked and I am watching those beat out 2080 supers on YouTube. If it is truly rdna 2 then it will only be better
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Is this the video you are referring to?
 

WolfForager

Member
Oct 27, 2017
248
ArchedThunder said:
It would be an arbitrary restriction that would piss devs off. Not every game is going to be able to instantly load. It'd be like saying MS should force devs to use RT. Let the devs do what they want with the power provided.
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I understand where you're coming from but Sony really seem to be pushing this and could potentially translate it into a strong marketing point. In that case I would imagine they will impose at least some requirements on devs/publishers.
 

MizziPizzi

Member
Feb 14, 2019
732
Sweden
Ishida said:
The "average consumer" will never take a look at the spec list, and they won't care. People like us are not the "average consumers".
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TF has become the new buzzword, people are using it as a performance indicator...

Anyways I like Sony's approach with the PS5, its clear they're going for a more balanced system to keep the price within a reasonable range..Meanwhile I have to applaud MS as well for their XSX approach, I wasn't really interested in it before but they've definitely piqued my interest.
 
plow

plow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,650
So in short:

The 15-20% in GPU Power is so big, that Sony should ask themselves what they did wrong.

But the 100% difference in SSD is negligible even though Devs ( even here ) have stated that Sonys SSD is a game changer?

Okay
 
big_z

big_z

Member
Nov 2, 2017
7,797
Hana-Bi said:
I still don't understand the narrow and fast concept. I thought that you'd rather go wide and slow but narrow and fast seems to be more efficent? Have we real world data to compare those two concepts?
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Higher clocks were beneficial for a long time but the industry has been moving to a wider approach for a while now. Of course when you have fewer cores, you're going to want to get as much as you can out of them but there is a reason why you see high end graphics cards use more cores instead of just bigger heat sinks and super fast speeds.

There will likely be the odd game here and there that runs noticeably better on one console than the other due to lack of optimizations. Should be an interesting generation for digital foundry breakdowns.
 
GillianSeed79

GillianSeed79

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,371
Actually watching the DF analysis has got me hyped again. The SSD stuff sounds amazing as does the audio. Audio next-gen is going to be amazeballs.
 
Bunzy

Bunzy

Banned
Nov 1, 2018
2,205
The only thing I'm nervous about is that this card doesn't really have the rdna feature set besides ray tracing or the per watt performance efficiency over rdna 1.

i hope this isn't another PS4 pro situation with the pro being a Polaris card with a couple Vega features racked on.
 
Son_of_Oden

Son_of_Oden

Member
Feb 27, 2020
655
One advantage of the higher SSD speeds I can see is, if you use frustum culling like in HZD and you can render less stuff outside of your real view because it can be loaded in way more faster. Therefore you have a higher triangle/pixel budget for the scene in view.
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cw_sasuke

cw_sasuke

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,400
Really impressive setup - quite hyped.
And yeah ERA embarrassed itself yesterday with the hot takes acting like the PS5 specs are a letdown lol.

Need to see those PS5 loadtimes :o
 
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