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Skade

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,862
I'm not a game dev but a web dev. But still, i know how coding something extremely simple can still lead to random bugs that comes out of nowhere and take an eternity to fix. So i always feel sympathy for those poor game devs when there's some bug somewhere that they take a long time to fix while players are screaming on the internet about how unacceptable it is and so on.

Guys, coding isn't really an exact science (it's supposed to be but man, it rarely feel like it), and games are terrifyingly complex things to build. Be a bit more patient and comprehensive about bugs and the time it takes to fix.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,372
In a big company, it's not very effective to stick the art team on bug fixing, for example, but I see so many gamers complain when companies don't do that.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Playing games on the other hand takes little to no real effort compared to effort it takes to make them. It feels really really odd being able to blow through a game in a weekend, when I know that it was literally thousands of hours of labor/schooling/crafting to get that thing in my hands. I have literally no stake in the games I play, I just play them, I enjoy them, then move onto the next one. Hell, the thing is literally designed for me to beat it.

We don't really mind. As long as you had fun and feel like you got your money's worth, we're more than happy. :)

Think of Hollywood movies, they take so much time and effort to make, yet you watch them in two hours.

So to bridge that gap juuuust a bit, game devs, what do you wish people who played games understood better? Whether thats about making games, playing games, discussing games, etc. Is there something out there that you wish players just had a better understanding of?

The one single thing that I think would be the most useful for everyone involved, would be for players to understand how to give useful feedback, especially for smaller / indie games where player feedback is frankly worth its weight in gold. There's really no way to properly convey how important good feedback is for a game with e.g. a solo dev like me. Divinoids is at least 4x better thanks to fantastic ideas and constant feedback from players.

This is so important I've often considered making a thread about it, but I guess this is also a perfectly fine place to do that. I'll try to boil it down to a few bullet points instead of rambling on.

First of all, never give false positive feedback. In the words of Rami Ismail (relevant timestamp, altough the whole talk is amazing and every indie dev should watch it at least every few months), that's the single worst thing you can do to a developer. Honesty is hardest when you have the developer right in front of you (e.g. conventions), and if the entire game is rubbish this puts you in a very unconfortable position indeed, but praising something you actually think is bad will lead the dev down a doomed path.

Second, be as specific as possible. It helps a lot if you have a bit of a designer's mind yourself, which doesn't mean you should literally be a game designer, just someone who thinks critically about them. You can practice this even with games that you'll never talk to the dev again. "The game is too hard" is less useful than "the bosses are too hard", which is less useful than "the swamp dragon is too hard", which in turn is less useful than "the swamp dragon's triple claw swipe is too powerful", which is itself less useful than "the second swipe in the triple claw swipe has a hitbox that's very hard to dodge on reaction". You can probably see you're kind of doing some of the dev's work for them, but it's a very small amount of work for you to think about what you find wrong and convey it, versus the exponential amount of work for the developer to test every single of these things (and exponentially likely to actually come up with a completely different idea about what needs to be changed).

The above applies to positive feedback as well: "the game is fun", while obviously great to hear (and, if true, you can also say that, of course), is less useful than "fighting normal enemies is fun", which is less useful than "this character is fun to play against regular enemies", which is in turn less useful than "I love grabbing normal enemies with this character and throwing them against flying enemies". This is a real-life example from my game than actually had me adding grabs to all other characters, instead of having it be that character's gimmick (this doubles as a teachable moment for devs: if one of your character's gimmick makes it more fun than the rest, give that mechanic to everyone else, and think of a new gimmick for them).

It's also probably obvious, but to get it out of the way: when analyzing a game and giving feedback, aim for the game to be balanced, not for your favorite character to be stronger. Think of what's good for the game, not what's good for you as a player. This is probably more of a thing with already estabilished games where people have "mains", but still.

I think that's about covers the most important stuff for feedback, but I'll be delighted to answer any other questions about either this, or any other aspect of game development.
 

Filipus

Prophet of Regret
Avenger
Dec 7, 2017
5,132
We don't really mind. As long as you had fun and feel like you got your money's worth, we're more than happy. :)

Think of Hollywood movies, they take so much time and effort to make, yet you watch them in two hours.



The one single thing that I think would be the most useful for everyone involved, would be for players to understand how to give useful feedback, especially for smaller / indie games where player feedback is frankly worth its weight in gold. There's really no way to properly convey how important good feedback is for a game with e.g. a solo dev like me. Divinoids is at least 4x better thanks to fantastic ideas and constant feedback from players.

This is so important I've often considered making a thread about it, but I guess this is also a perfectly fine place to do that. I'll try to boil it down to a few bullet points instead of rambling on.

First of all, never give false positive feedback. In the words of Rami Ismail (relevant timestamp, altough the whole talk is amazing and every indie dev should watch it at least every few months), that's the single worst thing you can do to a developer. Honesty is hardest when you have the developer right in front of you (e.g. conventions), and if the entire game is rubbish this puts you in a very unconfortable position indeed, but praising something you actually think is bad will lead the dev down a doomed path.

Second, be as specific as possible. It helps a lot if you have a bit of a designer's mind yourself, which doesn't mean you should literally be a game designer, just someone who thinks critically about them. You can practice this even with games that you'll never talk to the dev again. "The game is too hard" is less useful than "the bosses are too hard", which is less useful than "the swamp dragon is too hard", which in turn is less useful than "the swamp dragon's triple claw swipe is too powerful", which is itself less useful than "the second swipe in the triple claw swipe has a hitbox that's very hard to dodge on reaction". You can probably see you're kind of doing some of the dev's work for them, but it's a very small amount of work for you to think about what you find wrong and convey it, versus the exponential amount of work for the developer to test every single of these things (and exponentially likely to actually come up with a completely different idea about what needs to be changed).

The above applies to positive feedback as well: "the game is fun", while obviously great to hear (and, if true, you can also say that, of course), is less useful than "fighting normal enemies is fun", which is less useful than "this character is fun to play against regular enemies", which is in turn less useful than "I love grabbing normal enemies with this character and throwing them against flying enemies". This is a real-life example from my game than actually had me adding grabs to all other characters, instead of having it be that character's gimmick (this doubles as a teachable moment for devs: if one of your character's gimmick makes it more fun than the rest, give that mechanic to everyone else, and think of a new gimmick for them).

It's also probably obvious, but to get it out of the way: when analyzing a game and giving feedback, aim for the game to be balanced, not for your favorite character to be stronger. Think of what's good for the game, not what's good for you as a player. This is probably more of a thing with already estabilished games where people have "mains", but still.

I think that's about covers the most important stuff for feedback, but I'll be delighted to answer any other questions about either this, or any other aspect of game development.

This is a great post. Sometimes it surprises me to go on Alpha/Insider forums and see people just say "This game isn't fun!" or "This game is too hard!". Like... half the time it just seems people complain that the game isn't what they want it to be but offer no specific issues or any proper solutions. And it pains me because these people obviously want to help (or they wouldn't be posting) but have no idea that sometimes they are just throwing down on devs and aren't really helping.
 

Fawz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,658
Montreal
There is so much ignorance towards QA, mostly by gamers & the media but also in the other branches of development. Every major game shipped has extensive QA but in all casses not all bugs get fixed, and often it goes as far as the majority of the bugs knowingly not getting addressed. This is for various reasons (Fix is too complicated, Fix is still being worked on, Bug was deemed not worth the risk, Bug was dismissed due to not being low priority, Technical limitations affect reproduction rate and fix turnover, ect...).

Not to mention limited time, ressources and documentation which can severely limit efforts made by QA. More than anything though not all issues that happen in retail happen in the Test enviornment, especially in the wake of all games having some online component now. Obviously some things slip through, but that's to be expected when 2 years of QA is eclipsed by 1 week of release when comparing time spent on the game.

Chances are they knew about the issues people complain about but didn't get around to fixing it on time since there's a significant amount of time between identifying an issue, implementing a fix, verifying it, making a Release Candidate, Submitting it for 1st Party, getting Approval and releasing it to the Public. It's not that there's no QA or bad QA on bugging big budget games, it's that they're not allocating sufficient time and ressources to fix the issues that get reported.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Similarly, being better at reporting bugs/issues.
"The game is broken" vs "The level is broken" vs "It's impossible to finish level 3" vs "The bridge into the castle in level 3 doesn't have collision so I can't progress".

Perfect example, and thinking about it, perhaps it's easier to get the "be specific to a fastidious degree" point across with a bug report like that. The first sentence is what an angry fan in a forum would type, versus the last one which is so valuable companies actually pay testers to be that specific.

This is a great post. Sometimes it surprises me to go on Alpha/Insider forums and see people just say "This game isn't fun!" or "This game is too hard!". Like... half the time it just seems people complain that the game isn't what they want it to be but offer no specific issues or any proper solutions. And it pains me because these people obviously want to help (or they wouldn't be posting) but have no idea that sometimes they are just throwing down on devs and aren't really helping.

I would be rich if I had a dime for every "this game is too random, there's no skill involved" post in every thread about every roguelike ever, including games where people easily get clear streaks in the double digits.
 

fadeawayjae

Member
May 31, 2019
320
A few questions to devs

How do you feel about the state of MTX in games?

How do you handle toxic criticism from gamers because resolution or framerate of a game is not what they expected?
 

dose

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,462
QA finds waaaaay more unfixed bugs than you do, and probably has reported the ones you do find on release. Sometimes, fixing them is out of the question because 5 more bugs could pop up as a result of fixing that one. That one NPC passing through an object might be the concession for the show stopping, save corrupting bug that was found the day before submission.

QA will also have to basically campaign to get certain bugs looked at; reporting several times, creating several videos, looking at the code if that's an option, and getting others to reproduce the issue, only to be told it's not an important issue. Then the players find it in the millions, and you're having to go through the process again on a new build to see what fixing it breaks.

Last bit; when it comes to rereleases or HD Remasters, some devs would rather not fix old bugs, again because it could cause several more and since those conversions are often outsourced, a studio unfamiliar with old code (without comments in it!) will not even attempt fixes without a lot of time consuming consultation. Game dev is very very difficult if it's your livelihood.

Long, long days, those were.
All of the above, except in 20 years of being in the industry I have never once seen QA look at code. That's simply not their job.
 

Samiya

Alt Account
Banned
Nov 30, 2019
4,811
how extremely difficult it is to make a game. It's a miracle that games even manage to get released.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
I feel like it's lame that game dev is so secretive, we have no idea what's it's like, how hard it is, how long it takes outside of anonymous interviews(most of the time) because of that. The movie and television walks around with everything out in the open. We will learn about movies literally a decade out and have the development be documented along the way. No idea why games can't be the same.
There's plenty of info on this, but it usually comes out after releases in the form of post mortems. There's a bunch on Gamasutra as well as GDC talks.
 

Ogni-XR21

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,390
Germany
A lot of devs, even indies, burn themselves out. There's also a pretty well-known phenomenon of extreme depression once a game releases. Even if it's doing well, everyone enjoys the game remotely and privately, so it feels like..."that's it?" You gotta find a way to enjoy the process, or you're gonna burn right out of games real quick.
I released a fan game I worked on for 8 years last year and was wondering why I was feeling so down when it should have been an achievement. I thought it was because a hobby that I had for so long was suddenly gone, but interesting to know that this seems to be a common thing for people doing it for work, too.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,602
A few questions to devs

How do you feel about the state of MTX in games?

How do you handle toxic criticism from gamers because resolution or framerate of a game is not what they expected?
My stance on MTX is basically identical to a consumers? I haven't put any in my games, because I prefer developing solely single-player titles. I do understand they're a viable path to profitability, and so few games even break even these days...

Best to just ignore them. If framerate is AWFUL it can be justified, I suppose, but there's always a group of toxic, entitled people out there for anything. Just don't buy the game, and if you'd like to leave a respectful comment why, that's cool. No need for anything more, please.
 

Myself

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,282
A lot of devs, even indies, burn themselves out. There's also a pretty well-known phenomenon of extreme depression once a game releases. Even if it's doing well, everyone enjoys the game remotely and privately, so it feels like..."that's it?" You gotta find a way to enjoy the process, or you're gonna burn right out of games real quick.
If I understand what you're saying then I agree. Don't just make games because you want people to have people tell you they love them (Which is always great of course). You have to enjoy making games.
 

LuckyLactose

Member
Mar 28, 2018
161
Perfect example, and thinking about it, perhaps it's easier to get the "be specific to a fastidious degree" point across with a bug report like that. The first sentence is what an angry fan in a forum would type, versus the last one which is so valuable companies actually pay testers to be that specific.
When I do some spare-time QA for friends or people I know, I write a documents detailing bugs, balancing feedback and other comments, with screenshots/videos where appropriate. I've also helped people out with code issues if they feel like giving me access to the source code, or I offer my educated guess if prompted otherwise. I know for a fact I've saved people many many hours of work this way, which is nice =)

The difference in "time spent trying to fix this issue" between someone who has professional experience with these things and random 1-line comments is absolutely massive.

Better communication and feedback skills is definitely something I as a developer would love users to be better at.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
When I do some spare-time QA for friends or people I know, I write a documents detailing bugs, balancing feedback and other comments, with screenshots/videos where appropriate. I've also helped people out with code issues if they feel like giving me access to the source code, or I offer my educated guess if prompted otherwise. I know for a fact I've saved people many many hours of work this way, which is nice =)

The difference in "time spent trying to fix this issue" between someone who has professional experience with these things and random 1-line comments is absolutely massive.

Better communication and feedback skills is definitely something I as a developer would love users to be better at.

I guess that's why we end up testing each other's games in the indie dev thread. :D
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,348
One thing I'm asking myself recently is how AI stuff will factor into game development in the future. With stuff like DLSS or the Flight Simulator recently it seems to be like some kind of holy grail of software development.

For example, face animation was mentioned earlier as something that's especially hard. Why not just feed an AI with a whole bunch of footage of people speaking in different languages and let it do the animation? What are the limitations? Sure, the result will probably still need to be adjusted by a human but it will probably be less demanding and less time consuming than a developer doing it from scratch?
 

Tatsu91

Banned
Apr 7, 2019
3,147
QA finds waaaaay more unfixed bugs than you do, and probably has reported the ones you do find on release. Sometimes, fixing them is out of the question because 5 more bugs could pop up as a result of fixing that one. That one NPC passing through an object might be the concession for the show stopping, save corrupting bug that was found the day before submission.

QA will also have to basically campaign to get certain bugs looked at; reporting several times, creating several videos, looking at the code if that's an option, and getting others to reproduce the issue, only to be told it's not an important issue. Then the players find it in the millions, and you're having to go through the process again on a new build to see what fixing it breaks.

Last bit; when it comes to rereleases or HD Remasters, some devs would rather not fix old bugs, again because it could cause several more and since those conversions are often outsourced, a studio unfamiliar with old code (without comments in it!) will not even attempt fixes without a lot of time consuming consultation. Game dev is very very difficult if it's your livelihood.

Long, long days, those were.
You would think its common knowledge bug fixing is not so simple. Because even with the most basic rudimentary understanding of code i have i can get that changing code for one thing be disastrous for 10 other things.
 

Ellyshia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
451
Unless a company is willing to pay a million testers to play a game for a week straight, then do that repeatidly for 3 years, you'll never get the same level of eyeballs on a game as real world experience, and things will always be found in live that wasn't found during production.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Maybe I should drop by some time =)

I can guarantee a lot of people there would welcome someone willing to playtest their games as an angel from heaven. We're always like "can anyone try my game?" but there's so many and we're so busy we rarely have the time.

In fact I was also considering making a thread specifically about that (for non-dev Era members to try our games), but I keep putting it off...
 

ShutterMunster

Art Manager
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,459
I wish people understood how game engines work. Every time I read "but their engine wasn't built for the ground up for X," console I want to punch a hole through a wall.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
QA finds waaaaay more unfixed bugs than you do, and probably has reported the ones you do find on release. Sometimes, fixing them is out of the question because 5 more bugs could pop up as a result of fixing that one. That one NPC passing through an object might be the concession for the show stopping, save corrupting bug that was found the day before submission.

QA will also have to basically campaign to get certain bugs looked at; reporting several times, creating several videos, looking at the code if that's an option, and getting others to reproduce the issue, only to be told it's not an important issue. Then the players find it in the millions, and you're having to go through the process again on a new build to see what fixing it breaks.

QA must rank up there as one of the most thankless jobs in the world. As a dev who had to do long QA hours, both when working in a company (too small to have a QA department, or so they said), and as a solo indie dev (self-explanatory), hearing about devs mistreating QA people makes me want to grab them by the neck and slap them unconscious. Someone does the worst part of your work for you and you disrespect them, you entitled bastard?

(there's probably a lot of "shoot the messenger" effect here, in that communication from QA to devs is overwhelmingly bad news, but we still can and must be rational about it).
 

dabri

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,728
One thing I'm asking myself recently is how AI stuff will factor into game development in the future. With stuff like DLSS or the Flight Simulator recently it seems to be like some kind of holy grail of software development.

For example, face animation was mentioned earlier as something that's especially hard. Why not just feed an AI with a whole bunch of footage of people speaking in different languages and let it do the animation? What are the limitations? Sure, the result will probably still need to be adjusted by a human but it will probably be less demanding and less time consuming than a developer doing it from scratch?
There is already tools that splice together key poses into rudimentary animations that then get cleaned up by animators. It's not ai driven but doesn't have to be either.
 

ThreepQuest64

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
5,735
Germany
Not a dev but I'd like to see more commentary and conversation (not necessarily face to face but within articles, podcasts, etc.) where devs explain their intentions. This would often take the wind out of the sails when people say "lazy devs" or similar arguments because I do think it's not always out of bad faith but because we have no insight and can't explain how some supposedly simple things are overlooked and not being implemented.

I still don't understand why Codemasters removed race length options from their F1 games. I think it was in 2013 where you had 3 laps, 5 laps, 25%, 50%, 75% and 100% race distance. In the following successors you only had like 3 laps, 25%, 50%, 100%. I reckon if you have factors that influence fuel and tyre wear it doesn't really matter if that factor is 1.5 or 1.25.

Or why so many games lack a fov slider (even on PC). Or why resolution scale sliders, if they exist, often allows for upsampling (<100% of display resolution) but not for downsampling (>100% of display resolution). It just boggles my mind sometimes and I'd wish to know the (technical) background to understand the reason.

Also, I don't think that devs are perfect ā€“ there are human after all ā€“ and it's not only a question of resources. Sometimes oversights happen, like probably with the missing anisotropic filtering in many PS4 titles a while ago that got patched later when people noticed and pointed it out.
 

Briareos

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,041
Maine
I released a fan game I worked on for 8 years last year and was wondering why I was feeling so down when it should have been an achievement. I thought it was because a hobby that I had for so long was suddenly gone, but interesting to know that this seems to be a common thing for people doing it for work, too.
When I shipped my first console title I went to an electronic store a few weeks later that had it on display, and I had a panic attack during the loading screen since I had watched that loading screen crash over and over again as we ran out of memory during load (yay being the Gamecube lead before we worked out our virtual memory implementation on subsequent titles).
I wish people understood how game engines work. Every time I read "but their engine wasn't built for the ground up for X," console I want to punch a hole through a wall.
You should message me, I'm not sure where in the org you are, but I can assure you it is incredibly painful on the engineering team side as well.
Not a dev but I'd like to see more commentary and conversation (not necessarily face to face but within articles, podcasts, etc.) where devs explain their intentions.
The answer to OP's question is that the majority of fans, even on enthusiast boards such as this one, are not really interested in how games are made or understanding the problems of development. Which would be fine if it meant that they circumscribed their criticism to their experience as a consumer, which would be completely fair and valid. Instead, arguing about a developers intentions, or ability, or wildly speculating about technical matters, serves as a weird sort of proxy for arguing in general. There is almost no upside in engaging in this dialogue.
 

Zedelima

ā–² Legend ā–²
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,718
I have two questions to devs:
1- it is better to work at a first party studio? (Like naughty dog etc etc) because they seems to have more time and budget.

2-what is the worst part to figure out to put a game together?
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,357
Everyone should read Blood, Sweat and Pixels. It's a very easily digestible breakdown of the massive challenges of game development, using a decent variety of fairly recent real-life use cases.

A few themes that came back often in the book:

- QA probably found the same bugs you did. This has been repeated in this thread but I'll say it again. Game devs have to make choices on fixing X bugs in Y amount of time before ship date and relegating the rest to later patches, and sometimes that's a really hard choice to make. Like, sometimes fixing a nasty bug would be great but it would be difficult to do so without introducing more bugs, so they postpone it.

- It's very difficult to plan and schedule game dev because a lot of things about game dev are hard to predict. For example, you won't know your game mechanic is fun until you've actually prototyped it at the very least, and sometimes, until you used that mechanic repeatedly across different levels/scenarios/etc. What can be great on paper, can end up being a tedious chore to play. If you finally realize a mechanic is bad or boring, you might need to scrap it completely and start over, which can be very costly.

- Similarly to the above: this is why all games have cut content, because game development is constantly iterative.

- Sometimes game devs spend so much time on a single game, that they lose all rational or fair thought about their own game. They can't assess if the game is fun, or well-balanced, or well-paced, if a cut scene or set piece has the desired impact, if the mechanic is still fun to play, etc. because they've just played and re-played all of the iterations of that game since the start and are tired of it. That's why fresh eyes are so important.

- Crunch is, sadly, endemic to the industry. Devs aren't lazy. But, if you've read the ResetEra ToS, you knew this already. ;)
 
Jan 2, 2018
1,476
I'm just really impressed by games nowadays. A friend mine develops a simple Android game and even that is so much work. Can't imagine how much work goes into bigger games.
 
OP
OP
sn00zer

sn00zer

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,093
Figured I'd throw out a few quick questions:

What is the anticipation like in the office when the game you are about to release has gotten high marks in mock reviews, but few people outside of the office have played it? Conversely what is the mood in the office when the game has been receiving low scores in mock reviews?
 

Minamu

Member
Nov 18, 2017
1,900
Sweden
Figured I'd throw out a few quick questions:

What is the anticipation like in the office when the game you are about to release has gotten high marks in mock reviews, but few people outside of the office have played it? Conversely what is the mood in the office when the game has been receiving low scores in mock reviews?
Without saying too much, the games I've worked on so far have been on both sides of this. I knew from day 1 that our then ongoing and almost finished product was going to be a massive bomba (I came in very late). I don't think we had done any mock reviews per se, first time I've heard the term tbh, but everyone seemed to know that absolute doom was coming. We lived and breathed the product every day after all. It didn't blind us in any way, we knew very well that it was gonna be bad times ahead (but our hands were pretty tied for various reasons).

I have a good gut feeling for our current work though, and I think our community is gonna be quite blown away. The team feels very hyped, more than in a long time, and even though Covid and WFH have thrown several wrenches in the gears, the mood is pretty good. It's scary though of course, it's hard to anticipate if my finger on the pulse of what I think gamers want, is right on the money, or way off the mark.
 

Deleted member 50374

alt account
Banned
Dec 4, 2018
2,482
I have a question for fellow developers, but I am from another area of programming. I am curious about how to approach themes like CI/CD and TDD as a game developer. I am guessing it is about the same, but I wonder how crazy different those end to end test must look like, and how they approach code coverage. I suppose they have to hand test a lot of stuff compared to our scripts that just click and touch around our front end interfaces.
 

Aureon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,819
I'm only a few years in, but:

Proper feedback.
"I find it fun\unfun" is what we're always after
"X would be better if Y" really isn't. More likely than not, multiple people have spent years, day in day out, working on that damn thing - all the simple questions and switches have really been asked and considered
When a design decision is unusually baffling, there's generally a tech\time hiccup that causes it, or sheer unforeseen complexity


Question that has bugged me forever.

Let's say you have a player who has put literally hundreds of hours into a game. Would the suggestions they make actually be valuable given they are playing the game in a way very few people actually play it? I imagine this answer differs depending on whether or not the game is multiplayer or single player focused.
Competitive PVP game?
Maybe
Anything else?
.. Probably not, but it IS interesting to glimpse what loop caught a player for hundreds of hours

Figured I'd throw out a few quick questions:

What is the anticipation like in the office when the game you are about to release has gotten high marks in mock reviews, but few people outside of the office have played it? Conversely what is the mood in the office when the game has been receiving low scores in mock reviews?

Honestly, (when your job is reasonably still safe), the feeling is the opposite you'd expect
A bad project releasing means you don't have to work on it anymore.
A good project releasing means you can't work on it anymore.

In both cases there's a strong feeling of "Oh god finally", but flat out nothing beats dropping a bad project like a stone

I have a question for fellow developers, but I am from another area of programming. I am curious about how to approach themes like CI/CD and TDD as a game developer. I am guessing it is about the same, but I wonder how crazy different those end to end test must look like, and how they approach code coverage. I suppose they have to hand test a lot of stuff compared to our scripts that just click and touch around our front end interfaces.
Average code coverage is abysmal everywhere but in the most funded places
Automated E2E tests are often not a thing at all - League of Legends started doing those in 2014[/quote], when it had something like 50mil MAU.

Major engines often have very rudimental tools for testing, if any - designing a full E2E test is often far more trouble than it's worth when dealing with such a interactable medium honestly

TDD is.. very rarely a thing.
I've never been in AAA, so maybe it is once you scale all the way up, but wouldn't know
 
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sn00zer

sn00zer

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,093
I'm only a few years in, but:

Proper feedback.
"I find it fun\unfun" is what we're always after
"X would be better if Y" really isn't. More likely than not, multiple people have spent years, day in day out, working on that damn thing - all the simple questions and switches have really been asked and considered
When a design decision is unusually baffling, there's generally a tech\time hiccup that causes it, or sheer unforeseen complexity



Competitive PVP game?
Maybe
Anything else?
.. Probably not, but it IS interesting to glimpse what loop caught a player for hundreds of hours



Honestly, (when your job is reasonably still safe), the feeling is the opposite you'd expect
A bad project releasing means you don't have to work on it anymore.
A good project releasing means you can't work on it anymore.

In both cases there's a strong feeling of "Oh god finally", but flat out nothing beats dropping a bad project like a stone
Thanks for both of these answers as I wasn't expecting either answer tbh.

The hook is an interesting answer. It's funny because I could see someone saying "Hey you need to fix X thing" that only high level players would ever notice, but your answer instead is "Why does our game have high level players at all"

On the other point I very much get the "oh God thankfully it's over" feeling for bad projects, just never thought of it in the context of games.
 
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sn00zer

sn00zer

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,093
Without saying too much, the games I've worked on so far have been on both sides of this. I knew from day 1 that our then ongoing and almost finished product was going to be a massive bomba (I came in very late). I don't think we had done any mock reviews per se, first time I've heard the term tbh, but everyone seemed to know that absolute doom was coming. We lived and breathed the product every day after all. It didn't blind us in any way, we knew very well that it was gonna be bad times ahead (but our hands were pretty tied for various reasons).

I have a good gut feeling for our current work though, and I think our community is gonna be quite blown away. The team feels very hyped, more than in a long time, and even though Covid and WFH have thrown several wrenches in the gears, the mood is pretty good. It's scary though of course, it's hard to anticipate if my finger on the pulse of what I think gamers want, is right on the money, or way off the mark.
Thanks for answering. The "bad times ahead" for a bad game, does it actually impact your work if the game is bad or is it more of a morality hit to the team given the effort that went into it?
 

Kid Night

Member
Oct 27, 2017
475
There are a lot of really good reason not to implement online modes, or for the ways online modes are implemented.

That online modes place serious limitations on the design of a game.
 

MattB

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,904
A lot of devs, even indies, burn themselves out. There's also a pretty well-known phenomenon of extreme depression once a game releases. Even if it's doing well, everyone enjoys the game remotely and privately, so it feels like..."that's it?" You gotta find a way to enjoy the process, or you're gonna burn right out of games real quick.
I'm glad you posted lol. Years ago you gave away your game on the old site and I've been looking for it in my steam list to replay and I see you renamed it! Now I can install and play again! Off topic I know but it's great to finally try to replay since I never got to beat it.
 

JD64

Member
Aug 5, 2019
50
Melbourne, Australia.
I think for me, it would just be appreciation of just how long everything takes - especially as a one man team. One tiny small feature of change can literally take me one full days work. If an unforeseen bug pops up, that's even more time. It's very easy to lag behind set dates and deadlines due to the sheer amount of time that even the little things take.

That's why patience is also needed when asking devs questions or requesting interviews, etc. It's not because I don't want to be available, but rather because there is always something very pressing that needs to be taken care of.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,602
I'm glad you posted lol. Years ago you gave away your game on the old site and I've been looking for it in my steam list to replay and I see you renamed it! Now I can install and play again! Off topic I know but it's great to finally try to replay since I never got to beat it.
Haha, yeah, legal threats and stuff. Sorry about that! Hope you enjoy!
 

Thug Larz

Designer @ Bungie
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
570
I'd be curious to hear what devs think of this '60fps as a standard' thing that gets thrown around a lot in next gen discussions. As an outsider it seems to get overly simplified down to 'just lower the resolution and it will be fine' but from what little I can gather it's not at all like this.

Also we have seen lots of games get delayed since Covid, besides the obvious stress of the time we're living in are there things particular to game dev that make WFH really difficult?
On the COVID thing: A lot of what makes the process really sing for me is the collaboration especially while at the office or in the play test lab. Since we're 100% remote, the collaboration can still happen, but it's not seamless like it is when everyone is working in a shared environment. The current state of the world can really affect your mood too, so you gotta be conscious of it. Yeah, I have a killer job making games for a living, but the same world that is bumming you out is the one I'm living in too. If that makes sense...
 

Motwera

Member
Oct 27, 2017
886
What do devs think when people go "Your level cycles are broken/bad, the game is broken, controls feel like shit, you got low quality music for "classic mode"" and all sorts of that stuff? Not to mention people who insist that the artstyle/music is "shit" and will never match the originals period. It bothers me a lot hearing this sort of stuff alot, I get they're frustrated and even with legit criticism, but it just feels like two different worlds going between some places online.
 

Minamu

Member
Nov 18, 2017
1,900
Sweden
Thanks for answering. The "bad times ahead" for a bad game, does it actually impact your work if the game is bad or is it more of a morality hit to the team given the effort that went into it?
For me, it didn't bother me so much, but I was QA at the time so I wasn't a developer in the same sense as others. Still, we had lots of fun and we took pride in helping out with improving the game before and after release. We lost a lot of staff in the aftermath though. No one was openly predicting the bomb to be a near-fatal blow so when that reality set in, that made morale take a big hit of course. Working on new content that might not ever see the light of day also felt rather pointless but had to be done for legal reasons I think. In the end, the game internally was indeed improving, to the point where many reviews were talking about an almost different game, and that's frustrating of course.
 

eathdemon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,690
Everyone should read Blood, Sweat and Pixels. It's a very easily digestible breakdown of the massive challenges of game development, using a decent variety of fairly recent real-life use cases.

A few themes that came back often in the book:

- QA probably found the same bugs you did. This has been repeated in this thread but I'll say it again. Game devs have to make choices on fixing X bugs in Y amount of time before ship date and relegating the rest to later patches, and sometimes that's a really hard choice to make. Like, sometimes fixing a nasty bug would be great but it would be difficult to do so without introducing more bugs, so they postpone it.

- It's very difficult to plan and schedule game dev because a lot of things about game dev are hard to predict. For example, you won't know your game mechanic is fun until you've actually prototyped it at the very least, and sometimes, until you used that mechanic repeatedly across different levels/scenarios/etc. What can be great on paper, can end up being a tedious chore to play. If you finally realize a mechanic is bad or boring, you might need to scrap it completely and start over, which can be very costly.

- Similarly to the above: this is why all games have cut content, because game development is constantly iterative.

- Sometimes game devs spend so much time on a single game, that they lose all rational or fair thought about their own game. They can't assess if the game is fun, or well-balanced, or well-paced, if a cut scene or set piece has the desired impact, if the mechanic is still fun to play, etc. because they've just played and re-played all of the iterations of that game since the start and are tired of it. That's why fresh eyes are so important.

- Crunch is, sadly, endemic to the industry. Devs aren't lazy. But, if you've read the ResetEra ToS, you knew this already. ;)
the part about losing sight of balance seems to occur most in mmos/gaas. places were the community has collectively put so much time in that they with a rather shockingly high degree of acracy can see how a proposed change can play out in a way the devs cant see.
 

MDSVeritas

Gameplay Programmer, Sony Santa Monica
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,026
What do devs think when people go "Your level cycles are broken/bad, the game is broken, controls feel like shit, you got low quality music for "classic mode"" and all sorts of that stuff? Not to mention people who insist that the artstyle/music is "shit" and will never match the originals period. It bothers me a lot hearing this sort of stuff alot, I get they're frustrated and even with legit criticism, but it just feels like two different worlds going between some places online.
Everyone approaches those comments a little differently but it definitely hurts. I mean most devs sincerely care about the things we work on, and these games usually take years of our lives, years spent trying to build something to be really nice and hopefully positive, working through a billion issues and frustrations.

So if a comment is just like "this is shit"... I mean we're human beings, it absolutely stings. Feedback is important of course, and truthfully I think there's points where I'll have a more emotional reaction to some fan feedback that is valid and constructive as well, but I think it's obvious that there are plenty of people who won't phrase it that way, and make their comments into something harder to take in.

I'll say though, as much as it sucks to see those comments about things I do, I find a get a lot angrier at comments towards games or things friends have worked on. When its *your* thing there can be that bit of imposter syndrome that's like "damn, I was right all along, I really am a talentless hack", but to see comments like that at work I know wonderful and skilled people have worked tirelessly at and created wonderful work as a result, it's immensely frustrating to see.
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,637
  • "They don't listen to their players" - developers and teams see a ton of the feedback from players, both formally and informally. There is often a lot to take in, a lot to weigh up and filter, and if anything actionable is derived then it can take some time to actually make a particular change or addition happen, even if it is deemed viable. Just because nothing appears to be happening doesn't mean devs aren't listening.

Is this universal across all areas of game dev? This is something I mostly heard about like, Nintendo in the 2000s. I'm sure even they listened to feedback but I always got the impression they did less than most other developers and not in regard to certain aspects of their games, which is part of why their online functionality seemed years behind the times. I wouldn't be surprised if this was true for the vast, vast majority of game development, but there are at least cases where games developed and published by "old guard" developers from the 80s and early 90s that have mostly retained the same staff over the years listen to consumer feedback less than is the norm for the industry.
 

Hikari_Ryu

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 7, 2017
211
I'm not a gamedev but I work as a software developer for almost 11 years and I love seeing how similar it seems in some ways and how diferent in others.

Something that always makes me angry is watching some big Youtuber that has no experience doing development and saying things like "the game would be so much better if they did this or that" and acting like they are smarter than the developers. Don't know if it's only me or if any devs feels the same way.
 
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sn00zer

sn00zer

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,093
Question for devs:
One thing I've noticed is that the types of games devs seem to really like aren't necessarily those that the gaming community latches onto. One big one I saw was Death Stranding and a bunch of devs were blown away by the walking mechanics, because as far as game dev was concerned it was a bit of paradigm breaking moment on how to look at movement.

So game devs, are there game that you find interesting as a game dev versus games that you find interesting as a player?
 

Samemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,129
I think people who bitch a lot at fighting game devs should take the Sinkfla Approved Dreams challenge.

Even with Dreams being an extremely simplified and streamlined game development process I still fucking called it quits trying to animate and program gatling attack commands šŸ˜„
Absolutely this. Although I know its an unreasonable ask; that not even Media Molecule expects people to do this; that it might even be counterproductive if you were to force people into doing it. But I'll be damned if it doesn't pain me everytime someone says "I'll never touch the creation mode". It's such invaluable experience to be able to try creating something in earnest and realize how it completely re-contextualizes things other people have made. From the moment you're able to create a concrete image in your head of how something is put together is the moment you can truly start to realize the effort that goes into it.