Devs react to PS5 specs - Twitter edition

[GhostTrick]

ok. So for example:

1. car a is driving 1mph and car b is driving 2mph
WOW 100% difference! HUGE DIFFERENCE

2. car a is driving 100mph and car b is driving 150mph.
meh. Only 50% difference. small difference.

Again, you guys need to look at the raw numbers. PS4 vs. XBOX ONE was only 0.5 tflops.
Now we are looking at UP TO 3 TFLOPS difference. This is a 6x times bigger TFLOPS difference looking at raw numbers.

and you have also to take into Account that Sony is achieving their TFLOPS number only by using overclocking. Just look at GPUs that already tried that, the difference is HUGE:

But ok, let's say you guys are right... then explain me something:

WHY is Sony overclocking their CPU/GPU so damn hard?! The frequency is INSANE! Nothing like we have ever seen from AMD. Ridiculous. I don't wanna know how hot and loud this machine is going To get... and variable frequencies? Multiplatform devs it's going to be a nightmare to optimize. Maybe they won't even bother and just lock the frequency and call it day...
We are potentially looking at another YLOD fiasco... why else did Sony take so long to reveals tflops? Why else didn't we even SEE the console? MS already has shown everything and even journalists were allowed to take the whole console in and out...

But again, we will see in the end how different the games will look and run like

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Read your own pictures buddy: There's a 3Tflops difference between 2080S and Ti in your graph. Yet in games it translate to a 15% difference in power.

 

[Horned Reaper]

Do you know how cars work?

1. Car B gets to the destination twice as fast as Car A.
2. Car B gets to the destination 50% faster than Car A.

Your own analogy proved you wrong.

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This lol. He doesn't even seem to know the basics of the basics. Seems to be a troll/alt account though looking at his initials.

 

[Turkishflavor]

Turkishflavor i don't know if your account or posts are actually serious, but here's a post I made covering just this a few days ago.

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not really, but doesn't explain why Sony is overclocking so much.
The only reason they are doing this is to CLOSE THE TFLOPS GAP to series X.

if tflops doesn't matter, why did they overclock? Why not leave it at 9 tflops - if the difference isn't that big anyway - according to you?

I think as soon as we see the multiplatform games, we will that there is going to be a huge difference.
Especially with RT. RT is bound to CU, which series X has 44% more of compared to PS5.
But again, we will see when the games arrive.

 

[Deleted member 50658]

I am not trying to argue, I am trying to get properly educated on how it is going to be revolutionary in practice, not just through hyperboles that have been thrown around, with out any actual examples that go beyond just improved loading time/assets.

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Then read the thread your in or perhaps watch DF SC videos there are TONS of information about how important the SSD is instead of spouting shit you have no knowledge on.

 

[nib95]

I am not trying to argue, I am trying to get properly educated on how it is going to be revolutionary in practice, not just through hyperboles that have been thrown around, with out any actual examples that go beyond just improved loading time/assets.

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I responded to you earlier with a video link that goes into some of the reasons how. But Digital Foundry actually has an entire series about Star Citizen and many segments within discuss how the minimum SSD requirement shapes the games design and level of ambition.

 

[Deleted member 24021]

What's with all these new accounts with double digit IQ tier posts?

 

[ShutterMunster]

What does this even mean?

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Processes in the GE happen before you even begin drawing cycles, which is where VRS comes into play. See NVIDIA Turing mesh shaders for a better idea at what's happening here.

One thing I hope studios are thinking about is creating systems for higher quality procedurally generated assets. These SSD improvements open up the door for vaster and more intricately designed spaces, which are going to require a whole helluva lot more art.

 

[Turkishflavor]

I responded to you earlier with a video link that goes into some of the reasons how. But Digital Foundry actually has an entire series about Star Citizen and many segments within discuss how the minimum SSD requirement shapes the games design and level of ambition.

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Lol. Star citizens is still in ALPHA. Could be easily a bug. Are you seriously comparing this to a final console game? Seriously?
As if ps5s SSD would make games look and run better than Xbox series X games. Because of the freaking SSD. You do know that Series X also has an SSD, right?
And if you believe that multiplatform devs will design their games around ps5s ssd then you are delusional.

 

[Turkishflavor]

Then read the thread your in or perhaps watch DF SC videos there are TONS of information about how important the SSD is instead of spouting shit you have no knowledge on.

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SSD in general, yes. Both console have an SSD. So, won't make any difference between those two in that regard, since multiplatform devs won't design games around a single ssd.

 

[Turkishflavor]

Processes in the GE happen before you even begin drawing cycles, which is where VRS comes into play. See NVIDIA Turing mesh shaders for a better idea at what's happening here.

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as far as we know VRS isn't officially confirmed for PS5 yet.
Xbox series X has VRS confirmed.

 

[Deleted member 50658]

as far as we know VRS isn't officially confirmed for PS5 yet.
Xbox series X has VRS confirmed.

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Does the PS4 have RDNA2?

 

[Deleted member 20297]

As I see random back and forth about random buzzwords augmented by PR statements from both Sony and Microsoft which are used to highlight differences and perhaps even advantages over the other, is there actually really something in the render pipeline that one does and the other doesn't? And which parts are just plain rdna2 but twisted words from PR?

 

[Bunzy]

Read your own pictures buddy: There's a 3Tflops difference between 2080S and Ti in your graph. Yet in games it translate to a 15% difference in power.

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I think he is messing with us lol, this can't be a real account

 

[tryDEATH]

Then read the thread your in or perhaps watch DF SC videos there are TONS of information about how important the SSD is instead of spouting shit you have no knowledge on.

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I responded to you earlier with a video link that goes into some of the reasons how. But Digital Foundry actually has an entire series about Star Citizen and many segments within discuss how the minimum SSD requirement shapes the games design and level of ambition.

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I guess I should have phrased it better, I meant to questions how is the PS5's SSD going to revolutionize gaming so much more when the XSX that also has a SSD. Everyone is only highlighting PS5's SSD and its speed, but no one is actually explaining/showcase the advantage in practice between those two.

I understand the benefits that SSD's bring to certain games more than to other, which is why I brought up Star Citizen, but what I don't undestand it the hyping up between the 2 SSD's for which we have no examples for, yet we keep hearing hyperboles about it.

 

[Turkishflavor]

Does the PS4 have RDNA2?

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Not full RDNA 2 though. Only a small feature set of RDNA 2. that's why Sony is only talking about global illumination when talking about RT - whereas MS showed full RT with the Minecraft demo.
Besides - Sony promised a technical "deep dive" With Mark Cerny. If it was a technical deep dive and if they would support VRS, then he would mention it, no?
They might have it yes, but why didn't they mention it during their technical deep dive? Because?
Man don't tell me there is also PS 1-3 BC, but they didn't talk about it, because....? Lol

this SECRET SAUCE talk is getting ridiculous and beyond pathetic. This is even WORSE than the SECRET dGPU in Xbox one talk at the beginning of current gen. Crazy people.

 

[Turkishflavor]

I guess I should have phrased it better, I meant to questions how is the PS5's SSD going to revolutionize gaming so much more when the XSX that also has a SSD. Everyone is only highlighting PS5's SSD and its speed, but no one is actually explaining/showcase the advantage in practice between those two.

I understand the benefits that SSD's bring to certain games more than to other, which is why I brought up Star Citizen, but what I don't undestand it the hyping up between the 2 SSD's for which we have no examples for, yet we keep hearing hyperboles about it.

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It simply doesn't. Especially for multiplatform games it won't do a single difference, oh maybe a small one - little faster loading times. But that's it.
No multiplatform dev would ever invest time to optimize their game around a single ssd. This is nonsense and a huge waste of resources.

Just look at this video to see the difference between the different types of SSD speeds:

Does a Faster SSD Matter for Gamers?? - $h!t Manufacturers Say

Find a Micro Center near you: https://rebrand.ly/s9j16ct Maingear Vector Laptop: https://rebrand.ly/353vpgs Maingear Vector Laptop (Amazon): https://rebrand....

m.youtube.com

This will be the same difference for multiplatform games.

 

[Deleted member 50658]

Not full RDNA 2 though. Only a small feature set of RDNA 2. that's why Sony is only talking about global illumination when talking about RT - whereas MS showed full RT with the Minecraft demo.
Besides - Sony promised a technical "deep dive" With Mark Cerny. If it was a technical deep dive and if they would support VRS, then he would mention it, no?
They might have it yes, but why didn't they mention it during their technical deep dive? Because?
mans don't tell me there is also PS 1-3 BC, but they didn't talk about it, because....? Lol

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Can you point me to any proof of these claims or are you only guessing?

Matt a moderator here and a dev with basically a 100% track record also confirmed they both have VRS.

 

[mordecaii83]

Not full RDNA 2 though. Only a small feature set of RDNA 2. that's why Sony is only talking about global illumination when talking about RT - whereas MS showed full RT with the Minecraft demo.
Besides - Sony promised a technical "deep dive" With Mark Cerny. If it was a technical deep dive and if they would support VRS, then he would mention it, no?
They might have it yes, but why didn't they mention it during their technical deep dive? Because?
mans don't tell me there is also PS 1-3 BC, but they didn't talk about it, because....? Lol

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OK, at this point you've officially reached the level of trolling and can be safely ignored by all. In the future I'd recommend not making claims about things you have no knowledge of.

 

[Deleted member 4869]

Not full RDNA 2 though. Only a small feature set of RDNA 2.

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What the heck is this?

Seriously, why are you doing this?

 

[Bishop89]

Turkishflavor i don't know if your account or posts are actually serious, but here's a post I made covering just this a few days ago.

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Great post.

 

[ThatNerdGUI]

Might you elaborate on reasons why? Some detail or insight into why you share this opinion would be more productive.

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Well first of all Geometry Engines are already present on current RDNA cards.

A GE is a four-component vector, floating-point processor for accomplishing three basic operations: matrix transformations, clipping and mapping to output device coordinates.

Mesh Shader can process chunks of a mesh in parallel. The threads that process each meshlet can work together using groupshared memory to read whatever format of input data and process the geometry, then output a small indexed primitive list. This means no more linear iterating through the entire mesh, and no limits imposed by the more rigid structure of previous shader stages. The MS outputs both per-vertex and per-primitive attributes, which allows the user to be more precise and space efficient.

IInstead of "brute forcing" all the calculations with the GE, the MS can do it in a more efficient way calculating only what's needed and also helping create better LOD on a scene.

 

[Blablurn]

PS5 is gonna be lit.

From a technically point the console sounds fire!

 

[Turkishflavor]

Can you point me to any proof of these claims or are you only guessing?

Matt a moderator here and a dev with basically a 100% track record also confirmed they both have VRS.

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did Sony confirm full RDNA 2 including VRS? Did Sony confirm VRS? Why didn't they mention it during their deep dive? Why? Because they want a resetera mod to confirm it and not themselves?
I mean they might have it BUT currently it's not announced.
can you explain me why they didn't announce it during their technical deep dive at their supposed to be GDC talk? Wouldn't it be important for devs to know if they have it or not?

also, we had lots of insiders claim bullshit about PS5. Didn't thommy Fisher say something like 13 TFLOPS for PS5? And full PS1-PS3 BC? I wouldn't trust anything before Sony confirms it.

 

[Shyotl]

Can you point me to any proof of these claims or are you only guessing?

Matt a moderator here and a dev with basically a 100% track record also confirmed they both have VRS.

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He is full of shit. Him dragging in nVidia specs between cards as if its at all relevent to a completley different architecture from a completely different company is more than enough proof.

 

[ShutterMunster]

as far as we know VRS isn't officially confirmed for PS5 yet.
Xbox series X has VRS confirmed.

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I was responding to a question about the PlayStation 5s Geometry Engine...

 

[ThatNerdGUI]

Nadav Ziv on Twitter

“@pavomba @Carthemanbrah @WrexTheNerd I don’t think the split speed will be a problem, it’s a small part of the pool and and games need system memory too (on PC that’s sub-100GB/s DDR4 pool, 334GB/s is overkill for that). But I do wish the XSX had faster memory than 560GB/s, ray tracing loves...

twitter.com

Nadav Ziv on Twitter

“People think the lower TF figure is the #PlayStation5's weakness when it's actually the modest 448GB/s memory bandwidth. With a more powerful GPU than the 5700 XT, RT capabilities, a powerful CPU and 4K resolution the #PS5 might struggle with just 448GB/s.”

twitter.com

my god so is this the real bottleneck in the end?

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The 5700XT is bandwidth limited and it uses the same RAM configuration so hopefully AMD fixed that with RDNA2. Might be why MS decided to go with faster, wider RAM.

 

[mordecaii83]

Well first of all Geometry Engines are already present on current RDNA cards.

A GE is a four-component vector, floating-point processor for accomplishing three basic operations: matrix transformations, clipping and mapping to output device coordinates.

Mesh Shader can process chunks of a mesh in parallel. The threads that process each meshlet can work together using groupshared memory to read whatever format of input data and process the geometry, then output a small indexed primitive list. This means no more linear iterating through the entire mesh, and no limits imposed by the more rigid structure of previous shader stages. The MS outputs both per-vertex and per-primitive attributes, which allows the user to be more precise and space efficient.

IInstead of "brute forcing" all the calculations with the GE, the MS can do it in a more efficient way calculating only what's needed and also helping create better LOD on a scene.

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Aren't mesh shaders and primitive shaders basically the same thing? I know primitive shaders use the GE.

 

[ShutterMunster]

Aren't mesh shaders and primitive shaders basically the same thing? I know primitive shaders use the GE.

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Primitives are produced by mesh shaders.

 

[ElNerdo]

did Sony confirm full RDNA 2 including VRS? Did Sony confirm VRS? Why didn't they mention it during their deep dive? Why? Because they want a resetera mod to confirm it and not themselves?
I mean they might have it BUT currently it's not announced.
can you explain me why they didn't announce it during their technical deep dive at their supposed to be GDC talk? Wouldn't it be important for devs to know if they have it or not?

also, we had lots of insiders claim bullshit about PS5. Didn't thommy Fisher say something like 13 TFLOPS for PS5? And full PS1-PS3 BC? I wouldn't trust anything before Sony confirms it.

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Lol, we're back to "does the PS5 even have hardware RT? THEY DIDN'T MENTION IT" arguments.

I'm not sure if you actually watched the Deep Dive, or not, but it was painfully obvious they used it as a way to talk about the customizations they made to RDNA2 rather than just mention more of the same things that'd built into the architecture. Also since RT is such a big buzzword right now, of course they mentioned it. Again, because people refused to believe they had it even though mentioned it multiple times.

 

[Jssom]

What's with all these new accounts with double digit IQ tier posts?

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Misterxmedia and Timdog's minions. Imagine 7 years of conspiracy theories and denials of a Microsoft's console being weaker than a Sony's one. Imagine the pent up anger and disappointments all these years. Now imagine how they are gonna behave now that finally Microsoft really have the stronger console (Not a pro version or years later). You will never hear the end of it. I mean they were populating twitter and forums spreading their shit, expect it to be 100 times worse this gen.

 

[ThatNerdGUI]

Aren't mesh shaders and primitive shaders basically the same thing? I know primitive shaders use the GE.

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I'm not sure. I'll have to look into to it since I never did before since AMD pretty much canned it with Vega.

 

[SpaceCrystal]

1st party employees praise first party hardware.

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This. Where are the opinions from 3rd parties?

 

[Turkishflavor]

He is full of shit. Him dragging in nVidia specs between cards as if its at all relevent to a completley different architecture from a completely different company is more than enough proof.

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where am I talking shit? Did Sony confirm VRS or FULL RDNA 2.0? Where?

Why did AMD then do this blog post only for XBOX and NOT PS5:

"The Xbox Series X is going to be a beacon of technical innovation leadership for this console generation"

- Sebastien Nussbaum is Senior Fellow and Corporate Vice President, Semi-Custom Products & Technologies at AMD.

Microsoft & AMD Supercharge Console Gaming with the Xbox Series X

I am excited to share some of the details that Microsoft announced today on Xbox® Series X, and how it is built upon the partnership with the team at AMD. Together, we have relentlessly pushed the innovation boundaries of gaming devices for the last 15 years. Today, AMD and Microsoft are...

community.amd.com

if Sony had the exact same feature set and AMD RDNA 2.0 architecture, why haven't we seen a similar post from AMD? Why? Why are they even saying:The Xbox Series X is going to be a beacon of technical innovation leadership for this console generation
Like why? If they are exactly the same then this sentence wouldn't make any sense at all. They would just leave that out.

 

[zeuanimals]

not really, but doesn't explain why Sony is overclocking so much.
The only reason they are doing this is to CLOSE THE TFLOPS GAP to series X.

if tflops doesn't matter, why did they overclock? Why not leave it at 9 tflops - if the difference isn't that big anyway - according to you?

I think as soon as we see the multiplatform games, we will that there is going to be a huge difference.
Especially with RT. RT is bound to CU, which series X has 44% more of compared to PS5.
But again, we will see when the games arrive.

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Uh... They overclocked so the difference won't be so big... Is this Ken M? I feel like you're Ken M.

 

[Turkishflavor]

This. Where are the opinions from 3rd parties?

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there are none, only 1st party or former 1st party, or former Sony devs. You can guess why: damage control.
But again, we will see when the games will arrive how they will look and run different.

 

[ThatNerdGUI]

This. Where are the opinions from 3rd parties?

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MIA so far

 

[Turkishflavor]

Uh... They overclocked so the difference won't be so big... Is this Ken M? I feel like you're Ken M.

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Lol but I thought CPU/GPU tflops don't matter! Only SSD matters! This is what a lot of people are saying - which is bullshit of course.

The only reason why they did the overclocking is because TFLOPS MATTER - they needed to close the TFLOPS GAP. that's it.

 

[Firmus_Anguis]

I guess I hurt some feelings, because I don't remember ever being quoted as much. The irony? I've ardently defended Sony in the past (I don't hide my post history, check it out). Being called a console warrior... SMH... I'm not the one taking what's being said as gospel! 😡

Sony's solution seems absolutely crazy to me. You might buy into the talk, but the moment Cerny mentioned the variable frequencies, it was like saying "our GPU solution is bad compared to the competition, but potentially even worse than that". Him not straight out saying how low it can go and what exactly those compromises will be, that's the shit that's worrisome. He spent a whole hour giving us vague hints.

Lowering the frequencies "a couple percent" will lower the power needed by 10 %... Okay, fine. How much exactly? He said it was for our benefit, but how could it be?

Lowering the frequency of the GPU by just 5 % would bring it from 2.23 GHz to about ~2.12 GHz. That's about ~9.77 tflops. Will it go even lower? Those are the answers I'm looking for, eventhough yes, he said he expects the GPU to mostly stay at those frequencies. I certainly hope so, but the vagueness isn't confidence inducing. And of course the higher frequency will have it's own benefits! That's the only thing that might somewhat close the gap.

Will the SSD be groundbreaking? Fuck yes. I'm just not excited about their APU. I truly hope I'm wrong though.

 

[ElNerdo]

there are none, only 1st party or former 1st party, or former Sony devs. You can guess why: damage control.
But again, we will see when the games will arrive how they will look and run different.

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The same can be asked about the XSX. But you do do, I guess.

 

[HeavenlyE]

This. Where are the opinions from 3rd parties?

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MIA so far

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Are you guys just not reading past the first page

So, uh, about that "Sony Dev React" thing that is still going after 26 pages. From what I've gathered on this thread :

Kurt Margeneau (Naughty Dog) ---> Sony dev
Anthony Newman (Naughty Dog) --> Sony dev
James Cooper (no studio currently) --> Not Sony dev anymore
Andrew Maximov (Promethean AI) --> Not Sony dev anymore
Randy Pitchford (Gearbox) --> Not Sony dev
Matt Philips (Big Evil Corp) --> Not Sony dev
Mike Evans (ex AMD) --> Not Sony dev
Robert Boyd (Zeboyd Games) --> Not Sony dev
Andrea Pessino (Ready at Dawn) --> Not Sony dev
Dale North (composer) --> Not Sony dev
Olivier JT (VR audio) --> Not Sony dev
Jason Nuyens (Breakfall) --> Not Sony dev

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There's also been posts from multiple developers in this same thread

 

[Deleted member 20297]

OK, at this point you've officially reached the level of trolling and can be safely ignored by all. In the future I'd recommend not making claims about things you have no knowledge of.

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If this would apply generally, this forum would be a barren wasteland.

 

[mordecaii83]

Primitives are produced by mesh shaders.

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I was asking about the primitive shaders that Vega had that used the GE. I was trying to figure out if RDNA2's mesh shaders would also use the GE is what I was getting at.

 

[Turkishflavor]

OK, at this point you've officially reached the level of trolling and can be safely ignored by all. In the future I'd recommend not making claims about things you have no knowledge of.

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again, did they confirm VRS? If so, where? Did they confirm full RDNA 2.0 feature set, if so, where?
In the Deep dive, why didn't he talk much about RT, but only global illumination? Because? Explain this before just dismissing. Just shows that you don't have any arguments against it.

 

[FF Seraphim]

Are you guys just not reading past the first page

There's also been posts from multiple developers in this same thread

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Completely off topic of why you posted:
I wonder how 3rd party development differs with 1st party for the PS5. That would be interesting insight considering how both will use the SSD.

 

[mordecaii83]

If this would apply generally, this forum would be a barren wasteland.

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Haha that's too true. :)

 

[Alexandros]

If this would apply generally, this forum would be a barren wasteland.

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I laughed, well done!

 

[Deleted member 22585]

ok. So for example:

1. car a is driving 1mph and car b is driving 2mph
WOW 100% difference! HUGE DIFFERENCE

2. car a is driving 100mph and car b is driving 150mph.
meh. Only 50% difference. small difference.

Again, you guys need to look at the raw numbers. PS4 vs. XBOX ONE was only 0.5 tflops.
Now we are looking at UP TO 3 TFLOPS difference. This is a 6x times bigger TFLOPS difference looking at raw numbers.

and you have also to take into Account that Sony is achieving their TFLOPS number only by using overclocking. Just look at GPUs that already tried that, the difference is HUGE:

But ok, let's say you guys are right... then explain me something:

WHY is Sony overclocking their CPU/GPU so damn hard?! The frequency is INSANE! Nothing like we have ever seen from AMD. Ridiculous. I don't wanna know how hot and loud this machine is going To get... and variable frequencies? Multiplatform devs it's going to be a nightmare to optimize. Maybe they won't even bother and just lock the frequency and call it day...
We are potentially looking at another YLOD fiasco... why else did Sony take so long to reveals tflops? Why else didn't we even SEE the console? MS already has shown everything and even journalists were allowed to take the whole console in and out...

But again, we will see in the end how different the games will look and run like

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How can anyone take this guy seriously.
Obviously has an agenda and ignored everything that was said up to this point in this thread.

 

[Saberus]

Not full RDNA 2 though. Only a small feature set of RDNA 2. that's why Sony is only talking about global illumination when talking about RT - whereas MS showed full RT with the Minecraft demo.
Besides - Sony promised a technical "deep dive" With Mark Cerny. If it was a technical deep dive and if they would support VRS, then he would mention it, no?
They might have it yes, but why didn't they mention it during their technical deep dive? Because?
Man don't tell me there is also PS 1-3 BC, but they didn't talk about it, because....? Lol

this SECRET SAUCE talk is getting ridiculous and beyond pathetic. This is even WORSE than the SECRET dGPU in Xbox one talk at the beginning of current gen. Crazy people.

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WTF is wrong with you.. this must be a throw away account..

 

[zeuanimals]

Lol but I thought CPU/GPU tflops don't matter! Only SSD matters! This is what a lot of people are saying - which is bullshit of course.

The only reason why they did the overclocking is because TFLOPS MATTER - they needed to close the TFLOPS GAP. that's it.

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It matters. A 15% difference matters but it's not too significant. If the PS5 was at 9%, the difference would be 30%. You get it? The difference would be larger so they overclocked it to make the difference smaller.

 

[Desfrog]

This. Where are the opinions from 3rd parties?

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there are none, only 1st party or former 1st party, or former Sony devs. You can guess why: damage control.
But again, we will see when the games will arrive how they will look and run different.

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MIA so far

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Jason Schrier's comments on the PS5 are based on conversations he's had with multiple third party developers.