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Wing Scarab

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,757
How is it that in this day and age developers don't allow people to customise the button configuration in their game? I'm talking about Kingdom Hearts 3 here. I've been trying to play this game but the controls are so disorienting that I've dropped it and really don't see myself ever picking it up again. I know people will come in here and tel me to get use to it but I don't have to. I shouldn't have to waste my time adapting to a game because the developer decided to be shitty and not allow us to configure the buttons the way we want. I feel like I've wasted my money buying this game. At least now I know that I will not buy anymore games in the series unless I know for a fact it allows me to customise my button.

[mod edit: thread title edited to be less inflammatory]
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Zeus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
234
I agree but we're both going to get run over here for saying so. :P

Any button other than "x "being jump will never feel right to me.
 

Hyun Sai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,562
Is this hard, complex or time consuming from a developper / programmer point of view ?
 
OP
OP
Wing Scarab

Wing Scarab

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,757
Don't all consoles have button remapping at a system level now?
I'm quite sure it remaps every game and you can't do it on a per game basis which isn't very ideal.

Is this hard, complex or time consuming from a developper / programmer point of view ?

No it isn't. It's actually very easy to do.

I agree but we're both going to get run over here for saying so. :P

Any button other than "x "being jump will never feel right to me.

I know, but I just feel I needed to air this out because the game was getting on my damn nerves. Who the hell puts a jump command on the B / O button and thought it was a great idea?
 

dock

Game Designer
Verified
Nov 5, 2017
1,370
Don't all consoles have button remapping at a system level now?
System level remapping is handled poorly, as they remap things the whole system and make navigating the front end incredibly awkward.

My partner was playing something last year that kept on requiring her to hold multiple faces at the same time, which made pressing the jump button impossible for her. Remapping this to the shoulder button meant that the system menus needed had to be controlled this way, without new indicators on screen. We never picked up the game again.

I strongly feel that remapping should be better supported from the system level. Steam does a semi-decent job of this, allowing custom remaps per game but switching back to normal for the front-end.
 

calibos

Member
Dec 13, 2017
2,001
I'm quite sure it remaps every game and you can't do it on a per game basis which isn't very ideal.



No it isn't. It's actually very easy to do.

It can be done with a profile for different games on the X Elite controller and the Natron Revolution PS4 controller, but also if you do it on a system level with the standard controller, it is easy to turn off or on.

Also, it is an easy thing to implement on the dev side. Mad Max's controls will forever piss me off.
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,456
I've written about this a few times (having direct experience of implementing it for the original Sniper Elite. It's certainly something that should be done, but you've got to be very, very careful.

mclem said:
There's several issues with it - none are insurmountable, but all require you to be wary.

Firstly, there's the fact that you need to handle control in a central part of the code (so remaps are handled universally) - it's possible for an arbitrary routine to poll the pad directly, and you need to avoid this. Which is easy to do - provided you plan the infrastructure to do so in advance. Unfortunately, if you're trying to prototype something quickly, that can fall by the wayside, and it's a much harder thing to put in retroactively.

Secondly, there's the fact that there was - and I assume there still are - requirements for *menus* on console titles to behave consistently across all platforms. On Xbox, it's required for A to be 'accept' and B to be 'cancel', for instance. So you have to handle menu mappings independently of the game control mappings, another place where it's possible to make mistakes.

Thirdly, remapping controls is a powerful tool, and one of the problems with powerful tools is that people will screw up using it. We have to make it idiot-proof. We can't *let* the player remap jump and duck to the same button, for instance, no matter how much we want to. The game I wrote control remap routines for - the original Sniper Elite - suffered a lot, too, from the fact that the control design - made with a PC-centric outlook - used more controls than the pad actually had, meaning a large number of controls were of the form "Tap A to do something, hold A to do something else". We just about got around that by remapping *all* of the controls on a single button in one go, but I was never particularly satisfied with that result.

It's very possible to do - I mean, I have *done* it! - but it can require a lot of iteration and testing to do it right, and that time may be better allocated elsewhere.

(I should mention that that was written from a development perspective from before the modern engine revolution, so I don't know if the likes of UE make some aspects of this rather simpler now)
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
The four face buttons on the Playstation and Xbox controllers should have it, there is no reason at all not to be allowed to change it when they all have the same input.

What I would also like is a system level feature to turn off subtitles by default. I think it is so silly in 2020 we still have games with subtitles set to on in so many titles. They don't do it in home video so why gamess?
 

TP-DK

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,047
Denmark
What a shitty way to word it. If it's not there it's most likely because of time constraints and not because the devs didn't want to allow it.
 

Elfgore

Member
Mar 2, 2020
4,578
The inability to do so on Horizon: Zero Dawn was why I stopped playing.
I've written about this a few times (having direct experience of implementing it for the original Sniper Elite. It's certainly something that should be done, but you've got to be very, very careful.
(I should mention that that was written from a development perspective from before the modern engine revolution, so I don't know if the likes of UE make some aspects of this rather simpler now)
A good counterpoint for it though. I remember I played a PC game called Chaser and accidentally rebound left mouse click to loading my quick save. Too bad configuration continued in menus, just fire now worked as a select command. If I left mouse clicked, game would load my autosave no mater where I was. I couldn't even click into the menus to find what fire had been switched to. You need anti-idiot controls for some of us I guess.
 
OP
OP
Wing Scarab

Wing Scarab

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,757
Please dont ascribe malice to game devs OP, we need to do better but generally these things come down to budget time and a publishers priorities, many companies are now seeing the value in such support and actively researching it however.

and please never claim something is easy to implement you simply do not know enough of what goes on behind the scenes that can effect such a feature.
I work in the game industry as a 3D artist and work with two great friends of mine who are seasoned programmers. I have very limited programming skills but at the level that I am at, I already know how to implement this feature.
 

EinBear

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,669
RE3 remake has got me replaying all the Resident Evil games again, and I forgot just how poor a job Capcom did with the button layouts in the HD ports of REmake and RE0. They don't match the original controls to begin with, and then the two games don't even have consistent control schemes between themselves on top of that!

Using the paddles on my Elite controller and some button remapping, I've managed to Frankenstein together a control scheme that doesn't mess with my muscle memory too badly, but yeah. Games really should just let you do whatever you want.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812

Elfgore

Member
Mar 2, 2020
4,578
What I would also like is a system level feature to turn off subtitles by default. I think it is so silly in 2020 we still have games with subtitles set to on in so many titles. They don't do it in home video so why gamess?

Yeah, first thing I do in any video game is turn on subtitles. I still agree with you though. A universal standard of on/off and agreeing on one sub-menu to put them in would save me time.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,016
Don't all consoles have button remapping at a system level now?
System-level remapping is not a good solution because it means you have to change the profile every time you change games.
At the very least, remapping should be handled on a per-game basis. But even doing it per-game has the problem of button labels no longer matching the inputs.

What really needs to happen is a move to action-based remapping rather than button-based; like Steam Input does:
scapi-prey-1-sfj4w.png
scapi-prey-2-kvjn1.png


Games that implement native Steam Input support automatically have the in-game button prompts change to match the controller you're using, and actions match whatever button you assign them to.
I hope that Microsoft and Sony were paying attention to Valve and do the same thing next-gen.
 

AtomicShroom

Tools & Automation
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
3,079
It's a layer of complexity that most devs shy away from whenever certification is thrown into the mix. I worked on many games that had button remapping at some point, but when all the certification bugs related to that feature started pumping in, they more often than not decided to simply axe it.
 

Kazooie

Member
Jul 17, 2019
5,028
We did not allow button remapping in Regina & Mac, I claim we are not hateful.

Why do we not allow this? At the start of the game, you only use three inputs, left stick for walking, right stick for turning the camera and B Button to jump (on Wii U / Switch; A on Xbox One). Over the course of the game you gain several new moves, e.g. stomping (A Button), running (Y Button), switching platforms on and off (X Button and R Button) among others. Now if the user could map the buttons freely, something appears to be practical at the start may be shitty later in the game, depending on what other moves you gain (which the user cannot know in advance) and in which combinations they need to be used quickly. Relearning the controls later could be very annoying. So we felt that it is better for us to set the controls - except for inverted x-axis / y-axis on the right stick, which the game determines at the start what the user prefers, but the user can still also change it manually in the pause menu.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
Please dont ascribe malice to game devs OP, we need to do better but generally these things come down to budget time and a publishers priorities, many companies are now seeing the value in such support and actively researching it however.

and please never claim something is easy to implement you simply do not know enough of what goes on behind the scenes and the things that can effect such a feature to make such a definitive statement.
Yeah, first thing I do in any video game is turn on subtitles. I still agree with you though. A universal standard of on/off and agreeing on one sub-menu to put them in would save me time.
Yes, a universal standard would be nice at the system level. We have it on YouTube and media players to have subtitles turned off by delafult. The quote above doesn't make much sense either making it sound like pressing X or O on the Dualshock takes extra time and resources to remap. They are the same input, it's not like chaging the analog stick or triggers that have movement. Sometimes I like X to jimp, not square for example.

We did not allow button remapping in Regina & Mac, I claim we are not hateful.

Why do we not allow this? At the start of the game, you only use three inputs, left stick for walking, right stick for turning the camera and B Button to jump (on Wii U / Switch; A on Xbox One). Over the course of the game you gain several new moves, e.g. stomping (A Button), running (Y Button), switching platforms on and off (X Button and R Button) among others. Now if the user could map the buttons freely, something appears to be practical at the start may be shitty later in the game, depending on what other moves you gain (which the user cannot know in advance) and in which combinations they need to be used quickly. Relearning the controls later could be very annoying. So we felt that it is better for us to set the controls - except for inverted x-axis / y-axis on the right stick, which the game determines at the start what the user prefers, but the user can still also change it manually in the pause menu.

This makes sense and you are still offering the option to change. Why would some games not allow any option is the question?
 

Le Dude

Member
May 16, 2018
4,709
USA
The four face buttons on the Playstation and Xbox controllers should have it, there is no reason at all not to be allowed to change it when they all have the same input.

What I would also like is a system level feature to turn off subtitles by default. I think it is so silly in 2020 we still have games with subtitles set to on in so many titles. They don't do it in home video so why gamess?
The home video comparison for subtitles is weird. In most games you can read the subtitles and skip through the dialogue, which people do. In movies you cannot and it wouldn't make much sense to, since the main draw of watching movies is performances and the main draw of playing games is gameplay.
 

Mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
Why if English is your 1st language? I would also like every game to have the hud removed, that doesn't have to be by default because I think many like having the hud.
English is my first language and I always use subtitles with games, just prefer it that way. I guess because at times things can get noisy when discussion is going on or weird sound mixing. But in general just like it with games. There was a poll done on era previously about this for games.

erasubpoll.png
 

Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
Member
Oct 28, 2017
30,421
Why if English is your 1st language? I would also like every game to have the hud removed, that doesn't have to be by default because I think many like having the hud.

I can understand english pretty well and i never play without subtitles
I read faster than the dialogue plays out and i skip a lot of things. Sometimes audio mixing in game is not... optimal and i cant listen what they are saying, but i can still read it. And some VAs are just hard to understand all the way or can't speak some ingame terms properly and playing an entire game without subtitles to understand wtf they meant is torture
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
The home video comparison for subtitles is weird. In most games you can read the subtitles and skip through the dialogue, which people do. In movies you cannot and it wouldn't make much sense to, since the main draw of watching movies is performances and the main draw of playing games is gameplay.
Why is it weird to watch and play the game without having to focus on reading the same way as watching a movie? There is an easy solution here, have a system setting that allows it on or off by default. The only thing weird is not allowing the consumer to have this option.
English is my first language and I always use subtitles with games, just prefer it that way. I guess because at times things can get noisy when discussion is going on or weird sound mixing. But in general just like it with games. There was a poll done on era previously about this for games.

erasubpoll.png
I can understand english pretty well and i never play without subtitles
I read faster than the dialogue plays out and i skip a lot of things. Sometimes audio mixing in game is not... optimal and i cant listen what they are saying, but i can still read it. And some VAs are just hard to understand all the way or can't speak some ingame terms properly and playing an entire game without subtitles to understand wtf they meant is torture
i dont get why you are rebutting the data? ubisoft found that a large chunk of their players turn subtiltes on, then discovered when they made it the default that a very small number of people turned they off, they came to the conclusion that the vast majority of people like subtitles on by default so now a lot of games are doing that. We ship games with the settings that the vast majority of players are happy with. We wouldn't ship a game with the HUD turned off by default, because for the vast majority of people that would be a usability nightmare.

That's fine but the console or PC should allow a default setting that can turn it on or off universally. Just like Youtube, DVD players, bluray players and pretty kuch any media player for the PC. Would this not make everyone happy?
 
OP
OP
Wing Scarab

Wing Scarab

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,757
Again it depends. I think you are ignoring a lot factors when it comes to this feature (time, resources, production priority, whether the existing code base frustrates the ability to implement the feature ) If you are a game dev you should know that devs dont set out and decide "to be shitty and not allow us to configure the buttons the way we want". It's a feature that has to be created they dont decide to not allow you too, they have to decide to implement it as a priority and ascribing them being shitty for not doing so is a dick move and misrepresenting the multi levels of decision making that goes on during development.

Please don't make assumptions. I'm not ignoring anything. Like I said I have two friends who are seasoned programmers that have worked in a wide variety of titles ranging from your AAA to indie games for different companies. They each have been in the industry for over 20 years and have a combined 47 years between them.
 

Mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
That's fine but the console or PC should allow a default setting that can turn it on or off universally. Just like Youtube, DVD players, bluray players and pretty kuch any media player for the PC. Would this not make everyone happy?
I agree with that a default setting would be really nice to have so you don't need to check every game whichever your preference is.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
what system are you playing on? you could just do
Is this hard, complex or time consuming from a developper / programmer point of view ?
it should be easy instead of hard coding buttons you would make them a variable. but this prob would need to be done from the beginning of development or it def could be a pain probably to make a change like that i think. but thats where the system wide change comes into play to help with being a input buffer to the games.
 

j^aws

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,569
UK
The game industry still has archaic practices that wouldn't be tolerated in other industries.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
Why if English is your 1st language? I would also like every game to have the hud removed, that doesn't have to be by default because I think many like having the hud.
i have subtitles on for everything. its just sometimes the sound is low or you miss a word. its helpful to catch what was said in a game.
 
OP
OP
Wing Scarab

Wing Scarab

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,757
From the person claiming that someone must be a really hateful person if they haven't included remapping in their game.
You do realise saying 'You must' and 'You are' have totally different meanings right? Your reply would be true if my title said "You are a really hateful person".
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
i have subtitles on for everything. its just sometimes the sound is low or you miss a word. its helpful to catch what was said in a game.
I'm not suggesting they remove subtitles, I would just liek a system setting to not have to turn them off every game. It seems easy enough to do but some make it like it's a huge deal.
 

Le Dude

Member
May 16, 2018
4,709
USA
Why is it weird to watch and play the game without having to focus on reading the same way as watching a movie? There is an easy solution here, have a system setting that allows it on or off by default. The only thing weird is not allowing the consumer to have this option.
I'm saying it's a weird comparison to make. It makes sense to have a subtitles by default in a game, it does not in a movie or TV show.

Either way it also doesn't relate to OP at all. I can't think of a single game I've played where you couldn't go into options a change the subtitle option. Controller options are something that's not available and most games and really should be.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,195
You do realise saying 'You must' and 'You are' have totally different meanings right? Your reply would be true if my title said "You are a really hateful person".
Saying someone must be a hateful person if they didn't allow remapping in their game is still making an assumption about them.
 

silva1991

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,498
System-level remapping is not a good solution because it means you have to change the profile every time you change games.
At the very least, remapping should be handled on a per-game basis. But even doing it per-game has the problem of button labels no longer matching the inputs.

What really needs to happen is a move to action-based remapping rather than button-based; like Steam Input does:
scapi-prey-1-sfj4w.png
scapi-prey-2-kvjn1.png


Games that implement native Steam Input support automatically have the in-game button prompts change to match the controller you're using, and actions match whatever button you assign them to.
I hope that Microsoft and Sony were paying attention to Valve and do the same thing next-gen.

Pretty much this.
 

JustinH

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,398
I agree. I think every game should have remappable controls.
System-level button remapping is a tedious workaround if you don't have an Elite controller (and even then, it takes a bit of set-up to get your profiles right).

I wish I could've remapped controls in BotW. I loved the game regardless, but I would've liked it so much more if I could have L1 as sprint, B as jump, and X as the rune thing (or whatever was mapped to L in-game). The "swap" they officered edit: "offered" ("officered" is a word? weird...) wasn't good enough.

I've written about this a few times (having direct experience of implementing it for the original Sniper Elite. It's certainly something that should be done, but you've got to be very, very careful.



(I should mention that that was written from a development perspective from before the modern engine revolution, so I don't know if the likes of UE make some aspects of this rather simpler now)
Interesting read. Thanks for sharing.
 
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Fadewise

Member
Nov 5, 2017
3,210
Please dont ascribe malice to game devs OP, we need to do better but generally these things come down to budget time and a publishers priorities, many companies are now seeing the value in such support and actively researching it however.

and please never claim something is easy to implement you simply do not know enough of what goes on behind the scenes and the things that can effect such a feature to make such a definitive statement.

Except sometimes it IS attributable to, if not maybe malice per-se, at least a patronizing approach to game design that insists that the dev's way to play something is the only proper way to play something. See this interview that Jason Schreier did with Eiji Aonuma where he straight up says:

When we have a button arrangement, we very much put thought into how we do it, because there's a specific way we want players to feel. In some ways, if we freely let players do customizations on key assignments and such, I feel like we're letting go of our responsibility as a developer by just kind of handing everything over to the users. We have something in mind for everybody when we play the game, so that's what we hope players experience and enjoy as well. But we understand also that players have a desire for free customization.

That right there is straight up "fuck you, do it our way" attitude that needs to be stamped out.
 

Mentalist

Member
Mar 14, 2019
18,017
loads of indie devs releasing 3D games made in Unreal on Steam tend to hardcode their movement to WASD.

If I can`t remap it to the cursor keys, that`s an automatic "ignore" from me.