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Bit_Reactor

Banned
Apr 9, 2019
4,413
So for devs money is the issue. It is that way for consumers as well. We want to best bang for our buck. That's why subscriptions make more sense as a paying customer. I feel devs will have to adapt or be left behind.
I hate this kind of take. "The devs who spend hundreds of hours and trained for years to make this game want money? Well shit so do I, someone who is just consuming the product." I get "value vs price" comparisons and stuff but making the comparison of "Devs need to adapt to the race to the bottom or be left behind" is one of the worst things I've seen on a supposed game enthusiast site.

I have a lot of complaints about sub services but can see how they can be done right, despite my hesitation and fear about them. But going "devs should play ball with consumers or be left behind" really rubs me the wrong way. We've had years of people arguing that MTX and stuff exists to make profit back for games that didn't adjust for inflation, we have people who will argue that there's no point to buying day 1, we have people who will argue that they should just wait for the GOTY version down the line. All of these conflicting view points show that literally no one who consumes these products agrees on what the value of them is, and while I understand money is finite, demanding everything for pennies is why I hate the consumer centric perspective that Social Media has helped to propel even further into absurdity.

This whole thing of "well I'm a consumer so I'm owed things for less money" is why the stuff like Gears being on gamepass skews the value propositions into the arms of the people who can already afford to take the loss. I don't see how this benefits smaller devs at all, minus Gamespass which is only looking ideal currently because they NEED games on their service to appeal to people for a platform that arguably has less to offer exclusivity wise than their competitors. When the stack is in the publishers favor I highly doubt this will remain the beneficial deal it currently is. I wish people would just go "I'm cheap" and end it at that rather than trying to pass off as some psuedo intellectual perspective that benefits anything but themselves.

"Adapt or be left behind." What a sad way to look at games.
 

Arthands

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,039
I think everyone should stop using Google Game Pass payment model to represent all subscription-based services.
 

Godzilla24

Member
Nov 12, 2017
3,371
I hate this kind of take. "The devs who spend hundreds of hours and trained for years to make this game want money? Well shit so do I, someone who is just consuming the product." I get "value vs price" comparisons and stuff but making the comparison of "Devs need to adapt to the race to the bottom or be left behind" is one of the worst things I've seen on a supposed game enthusiast site.

I have a lot of complaints about sub services but can see how they can be done right, despite my hesitation and fear about them. But going "devs should play ball with consumers or be left behind" really rubs me the wrong way. We've had years of people arguing that MTX and stuff exists to make profit back for games that didn't adjust for inflation, we have people who will argue that there's no point to buying day 1, we have people who will argue that they should just wait for the GOTY version down the line. All of these conflicting view points show that literally no one who consumes these products agrees on what the value of them is, and while I understand money is finite, demanding everything for pennies is why I hate the consumer centric perspective that Social Media has helped to propel even further into absurdity.

This whole thing of "well I'm a consumer so I'm owed things for less money" is why the stuff like Gears being on gamepass skews the value propositions into the arms of the people who can already afford to take the loss. I don't see how this benefits smaller devs at all, minus Gamespass which is only looking ideal currently because they NEED games on their service to appeal to people for a platform that arguably has less to offer exclusivity wise than their competitors. When the stack is in the publishers favor I highly doubt this will remain the beneficial deal it currently is. I wish people would just go "I'm cheap" and end it at that rather than trying to pass off as some psuedo intellectual perspective that benefits anything but themselves.

"Adapt or be left behind." What a sad way to look at games.
I personally don't feel entitled to anything. I'm just saying I'm gonna go after things that give me the best value for my dollar. Why would I pay 20 dollars for a 2-3 hour game when I can pay 5 dollars for 400+ games. The market will speak in the long run. If this causes a crash. Then it'll crash and readjust itself.
 

TheChrisGlass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,606
Los Angeles, CA
I work in mobile games, and I see it happening.

Every game is slowly getting worse.

Even the cute ones are getting incestuous ads, even if they aren't IAP-ridden. There's only so many times you can pay for ads that just point players to another game that has ads to point to another game. That's just trading bad debt.

Meanwhile, the big games have honestly just stopped giving a shit about the regular players and know where their meat is. Like, Asphalt 8 introduced a new season pass for this week-long event, and it's $150 to get better rewards.

More games are online-only, which means as the servers get aggressively taken down to save money, more games will die. Events mean even some of the best content in games is lost to time, even to people who participated in them. It's a mess. There's never any HD Remasters of these, either. Hell, we're lucky if they even get patched for new regular OS updates.

Streaming games just puts more power into the hands of Google/Apple, which is the opposite of what people were fighting for. Choosing between reducing the 30% cut OR getting into pass model seems like opposites to me.

I thought we already raced to the bottom of gaming when people got used to getting games for free or 99 cents. (Remember all the Super Mario Run complaints?) But it seems we still have a ways to go.

If you don't believe games have gotten worse with this, go back and play the original Plants Vs Zombies. Boot it up, play it for 30 minutes. Marvel at the lack of ads, how there's no IAPs or video ads when you fail, and all your progression is tied to skill. There's no wait timers. There's no litany of events to participate when it starts. No Facebook login. Then load up the current one.
 
Oct 31, 2017
3,287
This has been my exact fear from the start. If subscriptions become the norm I fear game quality will take a nose dive and we'll just end up with a heap GAAS and cookie cutter rubbish with developers taking less risks.
I will always support the developers and their games by paying full price.
These are my sentiments as well and part of the reason I don't think I'm ever going to go with a sub model. I will support the games I want by paying full price.
 

Bit_Reactor

Banned
Apr 9, 2019
4,413
I personally don't feel entitled to anything. I'm just saying I'm gonna go after things that give me the best value for my dollar. Why would I pay 20 dollars for a 2-3 hour game when I can pay 5 dollars for 400+ games. The market will speak in the long run. If this causes a crash. Then it'll crash and readjust itself.
I mean I respect that you know what you're about. But I still hate that it could (read: probably will) determine where the future of the industry goes. Shame.
 

Arthands

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,039
Thats because they are paying upfront for exclusivity.

So we have to question two things. What will happen when/if Apple stops spending in exclusive games? And are people OK with this, because most people aren't with Epic exclusivity but I haven't seen much revolt around Apple exclusivity.

Apple fund the development of those games, which wouldn't have been made otherwise. This is totally different from Epic paying devs who already announced their games on Steam, to be exclusive to their store instead
 

Jintor

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,427
I personally don't feel entitled to anything. I'm just saying I'm gonna go after things that give me the best value for my dollar. Why would I pay 20 dollars for a 2-3 hour game when I can pay 5 dollars for 400+ games. The market will speak in the long run. If this causes a crash. Then it'll crash and readjust itself.

and the people who like the 2-hour game arthouse experiences get left in the dust.

i don't think i'm alone in saying i don't think that's a good thing that things like goose game, florence or sayonara wild hearts might get tossed in a blender because it won't hit the KPIs or metrics or whatever.

this one probably comes down to difference of opinion and lifestyle. At this point a non-JRPG game that last more than 10 hours to me just begins to sound badly paced =___=
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
They are right, especially under a spotify model. Luckily gamepass isn't like that and it's the biggest player in the space right now, but a pay per hour played/pay per play model will definitely fuck certain types of games over.
 

Teamocil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,133
Mobile gaming did this to themselves. Was bound to happen. When you price games at $1 and stuff games full of MTX people are going to get used to "free" games and refuse to pay $5 for your game. Especially now that you can get great experiences at the same price.
 

Teamocil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,133
This has been my exact fear from the start. If subscriptions become the norm I fear game quality will take a nose dive and we'll just end up with a heap GAAS and cookie cutter rubbish with developers taking less risks.
I will always support the developers and their games by paying full price.
Lol this was the case on mobile BEFORE Apple Arcade and Google Play Pass. If anything, these services are exposing more people to these high quality titles.

I think the smarter way of doing it would be to cycle out games on these services and offer members a discount to buy the game outright. Almost like a trial
 

MonsterMech

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,409
Seems every year there's a new villain that's gonna kill gaming as we know it, and every year gaming gets bigger and better.

Devs will find a lane for their games and gamers will engage how they see fit.

Nothing to worry about here.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,950
Don't put your games on poor paying services then. Indies should stick together on this.

It's not like these new subscription models are needed.
 

JayC3

bork bork
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
3,857
Tweaked the title a bit to reflect the article's focus on Google Play Pass.
 

sheaaaa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,556
Google Play Pass has sparked so much fearmongering for a service that will have next to no impact on the gaming industry, and will be gone in a year.
 

grand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,980
There's little evidence that players are incentivized to move to these new platforms and abandon other types of games & experiences.
 

justiceiro

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
6,664
I don't see this making mobile games any worse. Mobile games are already like that, but with the arcade, you can play without the additional cost.
 

Wumbo64

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
327
It will crash if every company expects to be the one providing a service you will subscribe to. It is a well known fact that most folks have a limited capacity for subscriptions.

Adults already have other monthly bills to pay. Beyond that, most people are going to be using any extra money they have to access top tier services like Amazon Prime. Beyond that, they are most likely to subscribe to Netflix, Hulu or a major music service. Some folks also pay subscriptions for access to news whether it be a traditional paper or something like Apple News.

Having a service solely focused on games would have to present a stellar value to even be remotely viable. This is one of the few reasons why Game Pass is noteworthy. It helps that Microsoft also continues to aggressively subsidize it, since anyone paying full price for it since it was announced is making a basic financial mistake given its countless promotions. It also allows you access to the latest first-party Microsoft IP, which means it is worth occasionally subscribing to just to save money on full price purchases.

Microsoft is a unique position and has leveraged considerable resources to make Game Pass viable, with no proof it will actually benefit their bottom line in the long-run. I personally hope it does, but that hinges entirely on making sure Game Pass remains a remarkable value to the point the sheer volume of business outweighs what they could be making over a traditional model.

I wouldn't want to be EA or Ubisoft, because I expect them to eventually drop their subscription services. They simply don't have the breadth of content to ask for a recurring hit to your wallet. Plus, if the economy takes a dip as a lot of financial experts expect to soon, the first unnecessary expense going are these tertiary entertainment subscriptions.

It's a mess.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,192
I personally don't feel entitled to anything. I'm just saying I'm gonna go after things that give me the best value for my dollar. Why would I pay 20 dollars for a 2-3 hour game when I can pay 5 dollars for 400+ games. The market will speak in the long run. If this causes a crash. Then it'll crash and readjust itself.
Why pay for chicken+rice, then some more for sauce, then more for a salad to go with it, then some more for gas and oil for a single lunch when you could pay a measly 20 bucks for N I N E complete emergency rations in two flavors from Amazon?
 

Godzilla24

Member
Nov 12, 2017
3,371
Why pay for chicken+rice, then some more for sauce, then more for a salad to go with it, then some more for gas and oil for a single lunch when you could pay a measly 20 bucks for N I N E complete emergency rations in two flavors from Amazon?
I never understood why folks get mad at how others spend their money.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,950
Mobile gaming did this to themselves. Was bound to happen. When you price games at $1 and stuff games full of MTX people are going to get used to "free" games and refuse to pay $5 for your game. Especially now that you can get great experiences at the same price.

Personally all of those free games loaded with MTX have turned me off completely to ftp mobile. They're inferior experiences. I'd rather buy my mobile games.
 

Godzilla24

Member
Nov 12, 2017
3,371
Who is mad? I am just saying that hours/buck is a nonsensical way of measuring value for games. And is not even what the market wants, otherwise Crusader Kings and Xenoblade would sell more than Spider-Man.
I'm just semi quoting the dev of that goose game. He himself said 2-3 hours for his game. It could be 10 or 20 hours. I still wouldn't pay 20 dollars. That's my personal choice. So I'm not counting hour per buck in that sense. I'm looking at overall value of services through my personal lens.
 

lint2015

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,811
Surely there's a really simple solution for indie devs: don't put your games on the service. Apple needs content to make their service work, so if devs boycott this business model, Apple will have no choice but to make up front payment deals instead. There's absolutely no point in putting your game on there unless you think it will be more profitable than selling it outright. It's not an Epic situation where you're getting an upfront cash incentive.
This article is mostly talking about Google's subscription model.
 

TitanicFall

Member
Nov 12, 2017
8,274
Forget the subscription problem. You've got too much competition from other developers. There are no game droughts anymore. No one is going to browse an app store with 5000+ games. Once you get moved out of the week's new releases, you'll probably be forgotten unless you have some marketing and news coverage that keeps you in the mindshare of consumers. At least this new model has a curation element to it so you have a chance to get discovered.
 

Godzilla24

Member
Nov 12, 2017
3,371
Forget the subscription problem. You've got too much competition from other developers. There are no game droughts anymore. No one is going to browse an app store with 5000+ games. Once you get moved out of the week's new releases, you'll probably be forgotten unless you have some marketing and news coverage that keeps you in the mindshare of consumers. At least this new model has a curation element to it so you have a chance to get discovered.
Yes I agree too with this. Competition is fierce not just with other games and devs but also other avenues of entertainment as well.
 

SapientWolf

Member
Nov 6, 2017
6,565
This has been my exact fear from the start. If subscriptions become the norm I fear game quality will take a nose dive and we'll just end up with a heap GAAS and cookie cutter rubbish with developers taking less risks.
I will always support the developers and their games by paying full price.
Game quality has already taken a dive on the mobile platform ever since freemium has become the norm. The Apple subscription model literally had the opposite effect.
 

chrominance

Sky Van Gogh
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,641
The article says we don't know anything about Apple Arcade's payout model, so I guess we'll have to wait and see if publishers or Apple will reveal any details. Good to know Game Pass doesn't work this way.

It's funny, the appeal of stuff like Apple Arcade and Google Play Pass for me was that it would create a viable platform for mobile games that weren't just gachafests and stamina-handcuffed experiences. It would be unfortunate if in the end it just shifted the predominant model to a different kind of exploitation through game mechanics.
 

Godzilla24

Member
Nov 12, 2017
3,371
Even though I will never own an apple phone or device. I can say their subscription model for games is really good and curation excellent.
 

DevilMayGuy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,577
Texas
Yeah it's spooky. GamePass seems to be doing it right from a dev perspective, but it remains to be seen if MS will be able to make enough money to continue that payment model.
 

Eggiem

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,781
Ah yes the industry crash people always fear, but never ends up happening.
It already happened in my life. I only play 9/10 or 10/10 games like GOW, BOTW or RDR2 day one, or stuff I really want to play (thats like 2 games per year). Otherwise Im waiting for stuff to be free, in a cheap bundle, or game pass. I'm buying way less games and spending way less money on games than I did a few years ago when there was no games as a service, humble bundle, twitch prime or game pass.
 

NervousXtian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,503
Most of the mobile games I play still are years old now. Ok. I almost only play Dream Quest and MS solitaire
 

Arthands

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,039
Thanks for amending the title for better context. Its not good to have certain posters using Google Play Pass to misrepresent all sub services just to drive their narrative.
 
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