Developers need unions. What actually has to happen for devs to get them?

[Deleted member 64301]

Basically the supply of game developers is very high. Tons of people want to be a game developer so they put up with more crap to do so. As the industry is today, unionization isn't a realistic option. There are too many devs willing to do the job. Very few employers would be in a position where they need to entertain it.

 

[Tregard]

I find it hard to believe that you and that other guy are this dense.

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Resetera sent me an alert that I was quoted on this post?

 

[Deleted member 49535]

Devs actually wanting them would be a start.

 

[Manmademan]

What I get from this thread is that people against unions have no fucking idea how unions work.

Who would gave thought.

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To be fair, a LOTTTT of people have no concept of how labor and employment law actually works. It's not a simple topic at all.

 

[Zombegoast]

Employees would actually wants them

But employers can outright fire you if you try to unionize and there's no law to protect you from that.

 

[Wamb0wneD]

To be fair, a LOTTTT of people have no concept of how labor and employment law actually works. It's not a simple topic at all.

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Not knowing the intricacies of labour law isnt the same as thinking unions are set up by the government or that union members review everyones work.

There are some dumb af takes in this thread lol.

 

[Manmademan]

Not knowing the intricacies of labour law isnt the same as thinking unions are set up by the government or that union members review everyones work.

There are some dumb af takes in this thread lol.

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True, but there's also weird stuff like "a lot of companies have policies preventing discussion of unionization" that I've spotted in this thread- despite the fact that this sort of thing is explicitly illegal for companies to do. Not that some won't try, mind you- but actual knowledge of one's rights under the law isn't common at all. And that's how misinformation spreads.

 

[Wamb0wneD]

True, but there's also weird stuff like "a lot of companies have policies preventing discussion of unionization" that I've spotted in this thread- despite the fact that this sort of thing is explicitly illegal for companies to do. Not that some won't try, mind you- but actual knowledge of one's rights under the law isn't common at all. And that's how misinformation spreads.

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It being illegal doesnt stop them from doing it. As soon they notice someone talking about unions they are just fired for different reasons.

The fact knowledge isnt common makes it possible for companies to handle unionization attempts in the way they do.

 

[Manmademan]

It being illegal doesnt stop them from doing it. As soon they notice someone talking about unions they are just fired for different reasons.

The fact knowledge isnt common makes it possible for companies to handle unionization attempts in the way they do.

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Basically what i was getting at. You'll have to pardon me. Very hungover this morning.

 

[808s & Villainy]

I find it genuinely incredible as a non-american that US people seriously argue against the benefits of working as a collective of same class to improve your conditions and think that management and the government will give you better conditions, hypothetically down the line? Like, it's just unthinkable for me, living in a country where the whole healthcare and labour legislation was built on the back of unionisation and aggressive fightbacks.

And to consider that unions are a bad thing because sometimes you gotta wait for one guy to plug a thing in an outlet? Wild.

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So I'm a software devs, and at an average company, not even one of the huge tech companies (ie. Google, FB, etc). I get paid over 6 figures, have stock options, a match 401k, unlimited PTO, months of paid maternity/paternity leave ,2-3% yearly raises (with higher for promotions), and other perks (like partial reimbursement for work related extended education/classes). And I'm sure my situation isn't unusual for a number of software engineers.

So if you come to someone like me presenting the idea of unionizing, my first thought will be to wonder what benefits I would get. Because if it was just a higher salary or other things, I could find another tech firm for that. I don't think people understand that outside of certain exploitative industries like gaming and VFX, software devs are in HIGH demand in the US and are treated very well.

You guys keep framing this as pro union or anti union, when for a number of people it's not that they're against unions, it's that you haven't presented them with actual benefits to unionizing that they can't already find aside from oftentimes vague "protections", assuming their union would actually even have that as part of the collective bargaining agreement

 

[Wamb0wneD]

Basically what i was getting at. You'll have to pardon me. Very hungover this morning.

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Same lol. Lets talk about this some other time.

 

[Deleted member 46489]

So I'm a software devs, and at an average company, not even one of the huge tech companies (ie. Google, FB, etc). I get paid over 6 figures, have stock options, a match 401k, unlimited PTO, months of paid maternity/paternity leave ,2-3% yearly raises (with higher for promotions), and other perks (like partial reimbursement for work related extended education/classes). And I'm sure my situation isn't unusual for a number of software engineers.

So if you come to someone like me presenting the idea of unionizing, my first thought will be to wonder what benefits I would get. Because if it was just a higher salary or other things, I could find another tech firm for that. I don't think people understand that outside of certain exploitative industries like gaming and VFX, software devs are in HIGH demand in the US and are treated very well.

You guys keep framing this as pro union or anti union, when for a number of people it's not that they're against unions, it's that you haven't presented them with actual benefits to unionizing that they can't already find aside from oftentimes vague "protections", assuming their union would actually even have that as part of the collective bargaining agreement

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Um...not to be ass about it, but why exactly are you posting in this thread? You aren't a game developer, you aren't being exploited, and you don't feel that a union would benefit you. It's a bit like me saying I don't understand the need for giving poor people food stamps because I'm not poor and I don't benefit from them. Like...we're all happy for you? Congratulations?

 

[808s & Villainy]

Um...not to be ass about it, but why exactly are you posting in this thread? You aren't a game developer, you aren't being exploited, and you don't feel that a union would benefit you. It's a bit like me saying I don't understand the need for giving poor people food stamps because I'm not poor and I don't benefit from them. Like...we're all happy for you? Congratulations?

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Because this thread is both about how game devs need to unionize (which I totally agree with) and the general benefits of unionization (which I'm responding to)? You have people in here stating if you aren't for unions you're brainwashed by propaganda or simply don't know what they do, while some people are explaining why their industries or specific fields are resistant to unions, which might also explain the mindset of some people in the gaming industry as well.

 

[Deleted member 46489]

Because this thread is both about how game devs need to unionize (which I totally agree with) and the general benefits of unionization (which I'm responding to)? You have people in here stating if you aren't for unions you're brainwashed by propaganda or simply don't know what they do, while some people are explaining why their industries or specific fields are resistant to unions, which might also explain the mindset of some people in the gaming industry as well.

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Fair enough. I was viewing this thread with a particular lens, and I guess the discussion has flowered in new directions. With that context, I appreciate your perspective.

 

[bunbun777]

Unions aren't perfect, but the alternative is far worse. Contract negotiations, holding employers accountable to those contracts, this is the union's main function.

 

[Vilam]

Yes and our receptionists are also considered game devs. Your point being?

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Come on. It's nice to foster team spirit, and unquestionably -- the roles mentioned in this thread (and more) are important pieces of a company that makes games. But receptionists aren't game devs, neither is marketing, and it isn't disrespectful to point that out. That doesn't mean they don't contribute, and their inclusion in a game's credits is of course a sign of that.

And on the topic at hand, it's a bit tiring hearing those who aren't in the industry continue to try and speak for what those in the industry need. Let game devs figure that out for themselves.

 

[elenarie]

Come on. It's nice to foster team spirit, and unquestionably -- the roles mentioned in this thread (and more) are important pieces of a company that makes games. But receptionists aren't game devs, neither is marketing, and it isn't disrespectful to point that out. That doesn't mean they don't contribute, and their inclusion in a game's credits is of course a sign of that.

And on the topic at hand, it's a bit tiring hearing those who aren't in the industry continue to try and speak for what those in the industry need. Let game devs figure that out for themselves.

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:)

 

[Vilam]

:)

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Consider why I said that.

 

[elenarie]

Consider why I said that.

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Whatever, mate.

 

[Jayembi]

I'm a software developer, not in the game industry, and would prefer not to unionize as well. I'm concerned about how this would affect wages.

As a creative field, there is wide variance in productivity between professionals. Key players deserve a higher salary than those that are content to fix bugs and do implementations following a standard template. There are roles for both in the industry, but salary has to reflect your contributions.

The only thing I would be open to is something akin to the Hollywood guild model, where there are guaranteed minimums and rules around workplace conditions, and also royalties.

They key problem with software development is that software and, in turn profits, can be scaled far beyond the cost to to create it. Developer should participate in this.

Developers who take a strong interest in their work and put in extra hours to create it should get ongoing royalties or an ownership stake in the profit exploitation of their code. Unfortunately, every time I see people talk about unionizing, it is in conjunction with the AFL/CIO or other similar organizations which don't really understand the unique nature of software developement.

i don't want rigid pay bands and arbitrary restrictions on how much I can work should I decide to put in extra effort. I do want to be compensated fairly based on how much profit my code generates.

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What happens is that you don't know how a union works. And believe me, I'm not saying it aggressively.

Just because developers unionize doesn't mean everyone will make the same amount of money. What the union does is establish a minimum wage, regularization of working hours, overtime pay, and many other alternative benefits. Even so, in all parts of the world where there are unions, there are people who have more experience and more knowledge where they logically have a better salary than someone who has less of these qualities.

Therefore, one thing does not remove the other, a union helps so that the employer cannot make arbitrary or harmful decisions towards the worker. Therefore, if you are a worker it will benefit you. On the other hand, if you are an businessman, you may not be very happy.

 

[Jayembi]

As part of a studio that has a collective agreement with Unionen, and being the biggest studio in Sweden in the industry, here are some horror stories and negative things we experience regularly when part of a studio that is unionised:

* We have free access to massages, yoga and mindfulness classes, and various organised exercises.
* We have free access to therapists and can request additional grants for any mental health needs.
* We get a bunch of games for free and credits to "buy" other random merchandise.
* We get various ESPP, RSU, stock grants, and similar ongoing bonuses programs.
* Our salaries are very, very competitive on the market.
* New employees get discounts to buy personal hardware.
* We get free Swedish language lessons.
* We get 400 EUR yearly health-related allowance to spend on gym membershps, random health-related personal equipment, personal sports activities, and similar.
* All employees are immediately part of a pre-set Retirement Plan, and get free access to pension consultants.
* The union helps resolve salary related issues between employees and the company.
* The union helps with migration related issues and concerns.
* By working with the union, the studio has much stronger compliance with Swedish labor laws.
* By working with the union, the processes of moving large group of people around for employment reasons are simplified.

I could go on, but it got too scary to continue. Being part of a union, what a horror! :)

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That sounds horrible!!! It seems that they have overwhelmed their freedom and human dignity.

 

[shintoki]

In order

1. Developers need to unionize themselves. 10 people from a company ain't do shit and will be replaced by Monday. 500 people from a company will cause months of replace, knowledge loss, etc. Causing the company millions in the process.
2. Upcoming developers need to join these groups
3. Consumers need to stop being apologist, Naughty Dog thread is a great example of shit. And straight up say I will not buy your product till your workers' union is legitimatized.

 

[Astronut325]

That just means 46% are ignorant.

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Seems to line up with the number of GOP voters in the USA.

 

[Weltall Zero]

As part of a studio that has a collective agreement with Unionen, and being the biggest studio in Sweden in the industry, here are some horror stories and negative things we experience regularly when part of a studio that is unionised:

* We have free access to massages, yoga and mindfulness classes, and various organised exercises.
* We have free access to therapists and can request additional grants for any mental health needs.
* We get a bunch of games for free and credits to "buy" other random merchandise.
* We get various ESPP, RSU, stock grants, and similar ongoing bonuses programs.
* Our salaries are very, very competitive on the market.
* New employees get discounts to buy personal hardware.
* We get free Swedish language lessons.
* We get 400 EUR yearly health-related allowance to spend on gym membershps, random health-related personal equipment, personal sports activities, and similar.
* All employees are immediately part of a pre-set Retirement Plan, and get free access to pension consultants.
* The union helps resolve salary related issues between employees and the company.
* The union helps with migration related issues and concerns.
* By working with the union, the studio has much stronger compliance with Swedish labor laws.
* By working with the union, the processes of moving large group of people around for employment reasons are simplified.

I could go on, but it got too scary to continue. Being part of a union, what a horror! :)

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BRB moving to Sweden.

 

[DOA]

i remember that there was a thread about unionization for game devs, after the kotaku article on crunch in the game studios.

one of the things that was linked there was the Patriot Act item:


i think this should be here as well

 

[Weltall Zero]

Important note: The reason we have those regulations in the first place (both in Sweden and Germany), is because unions fought tooth and nail for them. They are being scrapped and de-fanged and are not set in stone (see the recent neutering of the right to strike in Sweden).

I usually draw the comparison of pro-/anti-vaccination:

The very reason that certain diseases are nearly eradicated in the first place, is vaccination programs. This means that people have the luxury of becoming complacent, because they haven't experienced the disease and aren't aware that the absence of the disease is not set in stone going forward into the future. So why should they or their children get vaccinated? It's not like the measles are a threat in the 21st century! Cue reduction in vaccination rates. Cue increase of infected. The diseases are seen as a thing of the past, so people don't see the reason for vaccinations.

The very reason that workers' right exist in the first place, is that unions fought for them (sometimes literally, with workers being killed by police and military). This means that people have the luxury of becoming complacent, because they haven't experienced a life without an 8-hour work day or paid vacation, and are not aware that their rights in the workplace aren't set in stone going forward into the future. So why should they join a union and pay a fee? It's not like European workers lack workplace rights in the 21st century! Cue reduction in union memberships and bargaining power. Cue the gradual hollowing out of workers' rights. The fight for workers' rights is seen as a thing of the past, so people don't see the reason for unions.

Unions are a vaccine. And like all vaccines they aren't perfect, but they're a damn sight better than the alternative.

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This post should be threadmarked; hell, it should be made into a thread, and then stickied. Anyone saying "we don't need unions because we have fair labor legislation" is showing their ass (in tems of labor history ignorance) so spectacularly that it probably counts as a colonoscopy.

 

[Twig]

Seems to line up with the number of GOP voters in the USA.

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Not wrong, sadly. /:

 

[Ragnar]

This post should be threadmarked; hell, it should be made into a thread, and then stickied. Anyone saying "we don't need unions because we have fair labor legislation" is showing their ass (in tems of labor history ignorance) so spectacularly that it probably counts as a colonoscopy.

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Thanks a lot; I really appreciate the sentiment. I just felt like putting into words what's been rattling around in my brain for a number of years. I'm glad if the analogy can turn on the lightbulb over just a few people's heads.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Thanks a lot; I really appreciate the sentiment. I just felt like putting into words what's been rattling around in my brain for a number of years. I'm glad if the analogy can turn on the lightbulb over just a few people's heads.

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I really hope it does. Frankly as an European I've always been baffled by the anti-union sentiment of Americans, which seems like one of the biggest success stories of corporate indoctrination. Not that there isn't some of that over here too, of course, but in America it feels like it's the default stance for almost everyone. You pretty much never see unions depicted in fiction either, and when you do it's often in a bad light.

 

[Jayembi]

I really hope it does. Frankly as an European I've always been baffled by the anti-union sentiment of Americans, which seems like one of the biggest success stories of corporate indoctrination. Not that there isn't some of that over here too, of course, but in America it feels like it's the default stance for almost everyone. You pretty much never see unions depicted in fiction either, and when you do it's often in a bad light.

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Hollywood propaganda. Simple like that.

 

[Harken Raiser]

Come on. It's nice to foster team spirit, and unquestionably -- the roles mentioned in this thread (and more) are important pieces of a company that makes games. But receptionists aren't game devs, neither is marketing, and it isn't disrespectful to point that out. That doesn't mean they don't contribute, and their inclusion in a game's credits is of course a sign of that.

And on the topic at hand, it's a bit tiring hearing those who aren't in the industry continue to try and speak for what those in the industry need. Let game devs figure that out for themselves.

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It's common for different industries use language in their own ways, the word "developer" for game studios doesn't have to mean the same thing it does in non-game software development. A train conductor and an orchestra conductor are different jobs but share the same title, Disneyland doesn't have "employees" it has "cast members", etc.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Hollywood propaganda. Simple like that.

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Yeah, I know, which is ironic since Hollywood itself has historically been pretty strongly unionized.

 

[Ragnar]

I really hope it does. Frankly as an European I've always been baffled by the anti-union sentiment of Americans, which seems like one of the biggest success stories of corporate indoctrination. Not that there isn't some of that over here too, of course, but in America it feels like it's the default stance for almost everyone. You pretty much never see unions depicted in fiction either, and when you do it's often in a bad light.

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The most well-known, culturally significant and revered English-language movie ever to prominently feature unions is On the waterfront, which depicts them as criminal organisations.

It's widely seen as the director's pushback after he was critisised by a number of his friends and peers for identifying eight former communists during McCarthy's witch-hunt in the 1950s.

 

[Weltall Zero]

The most well-known, culturally significant and revered English-language movie ever to prominently feature unions is On the waterfront, which depicts them as criminal organisations.

It's widely seen as the director's pushback after he was critisised by a number of his friends and peers for identifying eight former communists during McCarthy's witch-hunt in the 1950s.

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Which reminds me that the Spanish word for union is "sindicato", and there's the connotations of the most similar English word (and false friend)...