• Light/Dark
  • Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Developers need unions. What actually has to happen for devs to get them?

ObbyDent

ObbyDent

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,910
Los Angeles
I was thinking about this reading the Naughty Dog thread on crunch. It's a heinous thing that needs to stop, but I think it goes beyond that. This same company, according to a former employee on Twitter, withheld his pay for fear of him telling the world about the working conditions! Sure, that's definitely illegal, but a company wouldn't dare if there was a union to defend them.

But what are the actual steps for devs to get a union? Will they have to come together to form it themselves, striking until their demands are met? Is there a "union guy" from outside the industry that comes and manages it?

Will it even happen if it's difficult in any way?

Please help educate myself and I'm sure many others on how this thing that needs to happen might happen.
 
Yuntu

Yuntu

Prophet of Regret
Member
Nov 7, 2019
10,657
Germany
It's essentially down to developers pushing for it. If everyone would push against how the industry currently is it would have to change.

But I think a lot of devs are scared of just being replaced by younger more willing folk if they would speak up.
 
cakely

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,149
Chicago
As a software developer I have absolutely no desire to unionize. It would only mean extra, ridiculous rules and regulations to follow.

Given an option, I would be against it.

So I completely disagree with your opinion stated as fact that "it needs to happen". It doesn't.

What do you do for a living, OP?

EDIT: Removed hyperbolic "examples". Also, I'm not a game developer.
 
Last edited:
julia crawford

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,065
cakely said:
As a software developer I have absolutely no desire to unionize. It would only mean extra, ridiculous rules and regulations to follow. Did that last git commit have Union approval? Does your Union rep participate in code reviews?

Given an option, I would be against it.

So I completely disagree with your opinion stated as fact that "it needs to happen". It doesn't.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

???

What
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,131
cakely said:
As a software developer I have absolutely no desire to unionize. It would only mean extra, ridiculous rules and regulations to follow. Did that last git commit have Union approval? Does your Union rep participate in code reviews?

Given an option, I would be against it.

So I completely disagree with your opinion stated as fact that "it needs to happen". It doesn't.

What do you do for a living, OP?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yeah, I think this is the general response to it.

Also ost devs are paid fairly well (even if it's below market rates in game development), and a lot are brought into the culture of being superstars and standing out. Until they're much much older, they will probably never lack for a job for a significant amount of time. So most won't see a need for a union, or see it as a way to normalize everyone.

Now QA/testers, they should see a need for a union but I think a lot of them want to be devs someday anyway? Maybe I'm just generalizing now since I've never been a tester.
 
OP
OP
ObbyDent

ObbyDent

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,910
Los Angeles
cakely said:
As a software developer I have absolutely no desire to unionize. It would only mean extra, ridiculous rules and regulations to follow. Did that last git commit have Union approval? Does your Union rep participate in code reviews?

Given an option, I would be against it.

So I completely disagree with your opinion stated as fact that "it needs to happen". It doesn't.

What do you do for a living, OP?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Do you live under a rock? Check the news my dude

Also are you a game developer? If not I'm literally not talking about you.

No need to attack me based on my own job, as well. I clearly don't know how it works so I'm asking. What a fucking crime
 
cakely

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,149
Chicago
ObbyDent said:
Do you live under a rock? Check the news my dude

Also are you a game developer? If not I'm literally not talking about you.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I'm a Senior Software Developer, and I work at a company that makes a DDOS detection/mitigation appliance, among other things. My company employs hundreds of developers.

No, I don't "live under a rock", there's no need for insults. As I asked before: what do you do for a living? You seem to have a very strong opinion about my profession, I'd like to know where you formed it.
 
OP
OP
ObbyDent

ObbyDent

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,910
Los Angeles
cakely said:
I'm a Senior Software Developer, and I work at a company that makes a DDOS detection/mitigation appliance, among other things. My company employs hundreds of developers.

No, I don't "live under a rock", there's no need for insults. As I asked before: what do you do for a living? You seem to have a very strong opinion about my profession, I'd like to know where you formed it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Respond to the other guy btw

I'm literally not talking about you. Stop making it about you. I'm talking about game devs.

Go away you weirdly intense person
 
Rodelero

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,496
cakely said:
As a software developer I have absolutely no desire to unionize. It would only mean extra, ridiculous rules and regulations to follow. Did that last git commit have Union approval? Does your Union rep participate in code reviews?

Given an option, I would be against it.

So I completely disagree with your opinion stated as fact that "it needs to happen". It doesn't.

What do you do for a living, OP?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I feel like you've learned about unions by swallowing Republican talking points.
 
julia crawford

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,065
cakely said:
I'm a Senior Software Developer, and I work at a company that makes a DDOS detection/mitigation appliance, among other things. My company employs hundreds of developers.

No, I don't "live under a rock", there's no need for insults. As I asked before: what do you do for a living? You seem to have a very strong opinion about my profession, I'd like to know where you formed it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The games industry is not the same as the rest of the software industry, it's particular and its need for unionization to defend the rights of workers is severely more urgent than for most of the software industry in general.

Can't blame people for thinking you're living in Mars when you post stuff like this in a gaming forum.
 
EscoBlades

EscoBlades

Banned
May 31, 2019
73
Toronto
Maybe someone can amend the title of the thread to include "videogame developers"

That way, those that the topic doesn't refer to can stop derailing it.
 
julia crawford

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,065
Video Games Are Dumb said:
I don't agree with him either but he's just stating his opinion. If we're gonna discuss, let's discuss. But don't go "ppppfffffft" and everyone who says something you disagree with.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The point is frankly ridiculous. You cannot level the conversation at the point of "i'll have someone watching behind my back while i code review", that's a degree of fantastical anti-union fear mongering that is honestly beyond discussion.
 
John Caboose

John Caboose

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,199
Sweden
cakely said:
As a software developer I have absolutely no desire to unionize. It would only mean extra, ridiculous rules and regulations to follow. Did that last git commit have Union approval? Does your Union rep participate in code reviews?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Wow. Spoken like someone who has no idea what a union does.

And yes, I am both a software developer and in a union (that has a collective agreement with my employer).
 
dabri

dabri

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,728
MP! said:
the developers themselves would actually have to want a union
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Game Devs do want unions. Fact of the matter is the game industry is the worst in the tech field about work practices and most simply burn out and leave to work at other established places in the tech field that don't suck so bad (not video games).
Game devs have tried in the past to unionize and it's failed everytime. Easy to replace, easy to fire, everyone is contract hired. Just not an easy thing to do.
 
Maximus

Maximus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,586
Better yet, why not have better and stronger laws that protect employees more. Overtime is an issue in a lot of industries for instance.

edit: Crunch is an issue in the accounting world, visual effects, etc.
 
808s & Villainy

808s & Villainy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
cakely said:
As a software developer I have absolutely no desire to unionize. It would only mean extra, ridiculous rules and regulations to follow. Did that last git commit have Union approval? Does your Union rep participate in code reviews?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I...don't think you know what a union does...

But anyway, this is really only needed for specific software industries (ie. games and VFX). For all others I really don't see devs really being up for it. I'm a fullstack dev and I can't imagine what a union would do to better my position. I already make a decent amount and have good benefits
 
Josh5890

Josh5890

I'm Your Favorite Poster's Favorite Poster
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
23,114

TokumeiDev

Member
Mar 8, 2020
2
Unfortunately, in the US at least, there's often an extreme hostility and misapprehension of what a union is or does. Couple that with the intense risk on the first movers in an industry to really attempt unionization, and it means that there's reasonable apprehension on devs not to stick their neck out and risk torpedoing what little foothold they have the industry.

The above all taken together, please do not make the assumption that video game devs do not want unionize or that there's a complete lack of will amongst game developers. As a game developer myself, many of us absolutely do. The question, however, is: how do we do so without jeopardizing the work we currently have? Without killing future career prospects? After all, as brutal as it might be to work for certain companies (and it well and truly can be), that's still preferable to many devs than utterly crushing the chances of remaining in the industry (at least until the burnout hits). And of course, how would we unionize in a way that works best for the industry? As others have noted, simply slapping a pre-existing union structure on the industry isn't likely the ideal solution (but letting the industry run as-is absolutely isn't either).

To be sure, it will likely take some of us falling on our swords to push for real, lasting, meaningful change in the industry. But that's also where video game consumers and fans can play their part too! Make your voices heard, talk to your politicians, support (donate!) to union groups and leaders championing workers rights. Amplify the voices journalists like Jason Schreier share, and make it clear you don't approve of the crunch and developer exploitation. Game boycotts against certain studio practices are a thornier issue, as there are rather mixed sentiments on that point (it can end up hurting certain dev teams with contingency bonuses, and most game devs aren't exactly flush with cash), but the sentiment is the right spot. Even if unionization itself is a long way off, we can still push for better development practices, more humane work schedules, and better development support. Nevermind the fact that study after study shows happier, healthier people are more productive people, and more productive people make better games!
 
nopattern

nopattern

Member
Nov 25, 2017
981
cakely said:
As a software developer I have absolutely no desire to unionize. It would only mean extra, ridiculous rules and regulations to follow. Did that last git commit have Union approval? Does your Union rep participate in code reviews?

Given an option, I would be against it.

So I completely disagree with your opinion stated as fact that "it needs to happen". It doesn't.

What do you do for a living, OP?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Um what? You should really read up on what unions actually do and how they can protect workers.
 
mael

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,744
cakely said:
As a software developer I have absolutely no desire to unionize. It would only mean extra, ridiculous rules and regulations to follow. Did that last git commit have Union approval? Does your Union rep participate in code reviews?

Given an option, I would be against it.

So I completely disagree with your opinion stated as fact that "it needs to happen". It doesn't.

What do you do for a living, OP?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
What in the actual fuck is this?
Is it a capitalist boss caricature trying to pass off as worker or something?
 
MP!

MP!

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,198
Las Vegas
*Guaraná said:
Why do Americans hate Unions and public health so much?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
we didn't fight to be free just to have the government tell us how to live our lives every step of the way.

Apharmd said:
You cannot negotiate for yourself as effectively as a collective can negotiate on your behalf.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I disagree... I don't think a government created entity can represent me better than I can represent myself.
I don't think the government can protect me better than I can protect myself. I'd rather represent myself.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.