• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
Yeah you need to read more of this thread before you step in. I'm not gatekeeping anything here.
I think we are in agreeance from your other posts but that inital post did seem like you were not wanting more accessibility options and there are many others that want to gatekeep.

So my bad that i took it that way but thank you for going above and beyond with some of your other posts.
 

Soundscream

Member
Nov 2, 2017
9,232
Not quite the same thing since Halo does have difficulty modes, but I will say I always hated how Bungie always told people that playing Halo on Heroic was "the way it was meant to be played." I suck at shooters and I forced myself to play ODST on Heroic which was a huge mistake, as I died a ton and got super annoyed by it. Conversely I played Reach on Normal afterwards and had a much better time.
I mean they say that for a reason. If you are decent at shooters normal is way to easy. You admit you are bad at shooters, so how many people would bounce off of the game if they made heroic difficulty the norm?
 
OP
OP
Swift_Gamer

Swift_Gamer

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
3,701
Rio de Janeiro
Don't really understand how the examples made in the OP support the argument here. Any given film might have fan cuts, heavily edited for TV cuts, remastered editions or unrated versions, all made without the creator's involvement. No one would use these to dismiss the importance of a director's vision.

In music Mash-ups, remixes, and custom playlists are huge. Anyone can resequence or outright remove content from an album. How does that negate the importance of the musician's creative freedom?
It does because it proves people couldn't care less about developer's vision, they play the games the way they see fit to them. Anything else is a gatekeeping excuse.
 

Altair

Member
Jan 11, 2018
7,901
I agree. Forcing someone to experience your vision of the game is absurd. Not everybody is interested in testing their merit on the highest difficulty possible. Some people just want to sit back and enjoy the experience.
 

Blizz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,405
The gatekeeping people do with hard games is hilarious

it takes 30 seconds to add basic difficulty modes and i don't wanna hear that BS about how it makes game balance harder. literally just do a toggle that makes me take less damage and deal more. design around "hard" as the default, that's totally fine, but this is a basic accessibility option that in no way diminishes your enjoyment of the game
If you don't know anything about game development why do you post takes like this? I can guarantee you there isn't a magic 'Create Difficulty Modes' toggle in game engines.

If mechanical complexity isn't what makes the game hard, then what else is stopping an easy mode? Outside of this complexity, combat is just health and damage numbers.

Also DMC has plenty of enemies that are hard to kill to different degrees, or did you forget the Blitz in 4 and the Summoner in 5?
Not sure where you're trying to get at, DMC has difficulty options, I didn't deny that did I?
 

-Tetsuo-

Unlimited Capacity
Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,559
Not every game has to be like the other. It is fine for some games to be uncompromisingly difficult or cruel and fine for others to let you turn film grain off. If you don't like it or can't proceed, put it on the shelf and move on or deal with it. Simple as that.
 

tripleg

Alt Account
Banned
Jul 30, 2020
1,132
I'm not sure where I sit on this argument - at one level I believe all games should be accessible to those that choose to enjoy it.

Seperately, I believe in a developers vision and their right to make whatever experience they want to.

So, at the end of the day - I think having a game thats extendible/moddable is a good compromise.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,487
It's wild to think about how many games with difficulty options will have some note of "this is how the game is meant to be played" or somesuch, and that's no problem.

Except in From Games, where even offering a different difficulty is sacrilegious.

"bb-b-b-but how else would the player get the intended experience?????"
Yea. No one had issues with every option in TLOU part II. Yet even hint at the idea of some options in From games and you are berated.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,973
There is always going to be somebody not able to have access to something due to their disabilities or finances, etc. It's better if the game developers implement as many accessibility features as possible, but eventually they'll have to move on.

Some games are just going to be naturally inaccessible due to mechanics. For instance a fast paced reaction based game is going to leave a lot of people unable to keep up. Should the developer implement features to help alleviate this? Sure, but its up to them because it may fundamentally ruin the game they set out to make. It'll also take time and money to implement where some developers may just not have that ability.

You need to remember games are essentially part art and you're asking them to adjust their art work to be more accessible. But in doing so, it may effectively ruin the art as it was intended. It really takes a case by case basis in seeing what can be done and what can't.

So games are natural selection now? Games aren't "natural" or from nature, games are creations from people.

And if games are really "part art", then as art they would be able to be accessed and critiqued by anyone and everyone. At least there are other art venues that are trying here (and yes, they factor in "artist's intent" into their accessibility features):

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/06/multisensory-art/486200/
 

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,944
But... games really don't need to be for everyone. Whatever person you pick, there will be games they cannot enjoy, for a variety of reasons. Forcing games to be accessible to everyone will just decay game designs and genres to the point where it'll be one homogeneous mess. You can't make a person who can't enjoy and doesn't have the capacity to play strategy games, good at strategy games - not without making the game play itself, at which point it's the equivalent of handing them a disconnected controller and cheering on them for "helping", which is just condescending.

Are you fucking serious with this post?

Accessibility is the difference between having the choice of whether a game is right for you, and literally not being able to decide because ITS LITERALLY INACCESSIBLE TO YOU. AS IN YOU CANNOT REACH IT.

If you are bound by wheelchair and there is a product on the top shelf, are you really going to fucking tell them that not all products need to be for everyone?

No, you aren't. What you're going to do is find a way to make the product more accessible to this person in the wheel chair so that they can actually arrive at the able bodied option of deciding if it is right for them or not.

Honestly, how does this shit fly over people's heads so much?

Forcing games to be accessible to everyone will just decay game designs and genres to the point where it'll be one homogeneous mess.

Yes, won't we think of the able bodied people and their apparent inability to innovate on game design because they are forced to think of an underserved part of the population? The horror.

I'm not going to respond to your other point about the olympics because you're attempting a false equivalence.
 

justiceiro

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
6,664
There is a world of difference between creators vision and creators resources. Everything that goes in a game have to be made by someone, supervised and checked, if the creator care enough about their work. This demands a thing called time. A time that could be used in anything else, like adding a new move/weapon or even fixing a bug. So, if the creators don't think they are making the game any better, why should spend their limited resources on it?

Why do devs need to add easy modes themselves if the community can easily mod to it?
 

Ashes of Dreams

Unshakable Resolve
Member
May 22, 2020
14,330
User Banned (1 Month) - Generalizations & Ableism
The notion that everyone who may think games shouldn't be forced to have an easy mode if they don't want to is "actually secretly gatekeeping" is one of the things that makes this conversation so frustrating. You have a group of people so adamant that anyone with the opposite opinion of theirs must actually be an asshole that they choose to ignore any point they actually make and the debate becomes someone trying to twist someone else's words so they can prove their were gatekeeping. Inevitably a gatekeeping asshole WILL come around, at which point the person can just point to them and go "see, that's what it's all about".

No, everyone who says "it's the developers choice" is not secretly only saying that as an excuse to gatekeep. People actually do care about the developer's choice and this may shock you but a lot of people (myself included) dislike the idea of using mods on a first playthrough. There are also people who like the game specifically because they know there's no easy mode. Has nothing to do with other people, that's just part of the appeal for them. You being catered to is no more important than them being catered to and since most games have easy modes the actually inclusive thing to do would be to let games exist that cater to both types of people.

Are you fucking serious with this post?

Accessibility is the difference between having the choice of whether a game is right for you, and literally not being able to decide because ITS LITERALLY INACCESSIBLE TO YOU. AS IN YOU CANNOT REACH IT.

If you are bound by wheelchair and there is a product on the top shelf, are you really going to fucking tell them that not all products need to be for everyone?

No, you aren't. What you're going to do is find a way to make the product more accessible to this person in the wheel chair so that they can actually arrive at the able bodied option of deciding if it is right for them or not.

Honestly, how does this shit fly over people's heads so much?
Video games are not a jar of cookies up on a shelf, they're an activity. There are some activities that a person in a wheelchair cannot do. It's definitely nice to keep them in mind when making your product if you aren't intentionally trying to make something that requires dexterity they don't have, but you should not be obligated to. Rather than use the example of something up on a shelf they can't reach, you're suggesting that nobody should be able to play football because someone in a wheelchair can't. Instead we should keep football and then make another sport they CAN play. How is THAT so bad to some people? Let everyone have their thing.
 

InfiniDragon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,306
I agree. Forcing someone to experience your vision of the game is absurd. Not everybody is interested in testing their merit on the highest difficulty possible. Some people just want to sit back and enjoy the experience.

I mean I get where you're coming from, but that kinda falls flat if the person or group of people that wants you to experience it their way is the dev themselves (like say, From Soft), in which case you have no say on the matter because you literally can't change it unless the game happens to be mod-friendly (which From Soft games really aren't, though people manage).

You can't even boycott them in situations like that, because you weren't going to play the game anyway due to the accessibility. I think accessibility options should be available where possible (when they don't affect another player's experience also like multiplayer because that isn't the goal of accessibility), but it's a situation I really wonder if there's anything that can be done for if the devs themselves decide "it's this, deal with it" as some do.
 

Ruisu

Banned
Aug 1, 2019
5,535
Brasil
Not sure where you're trying to get at, DMC has difficulty options, I didn't deny that did I?
Then I don't get your point in the reply before. I offered DMC as an example of a franchise that has implemented easy difficulty modes to a great extents without compromising it's vision at all, the easy mode is super accessible while the harder modes are still just as challenging and compelling as ever.
For me that proves that at least in terms of combat, games with less complex mechanics really have no justification for not including easy modes.
 

Deleted member 1102

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,295
Agreed. This site has a huge problem with gatekeeping difficulty in games and the fact that people were enraged that Pokemon Sword/Shield was too easy yet were appalled at the idea of Cuphead having an easy mode shows just how ridiculous it is. 'Respecting the Developers vision' is an absolute cop out answer that these people hide behind and I'm tired of it.
 

robotzombie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,853
It does because it proves people couldn't care less about developer's vision, they play the games the way they see fit to them. Anything else is a gatekeeping excuse.

The problem with this entire topic of yours is that you've invented a fake person who argues about developer's vision and also mods games at the same time. Your whole topic is about people being hypocrites but we have no idea that these people exist in any percentage that warrants this discussion.
 

Yeeeeeeeeeer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
907
west coast
im with others who say not all games are for everyone. however, the gatekeeping is annoying just like how it is in sports, politics, food, movie, music, etc.
 

Bit_Reactor

Banned
Apr 9, 2019
4,413
The same thread again? :P

Some people enjoy being catered to. I like that I get games that MAKE me put in effort to win them. It's that simple. It's not about keeping others from it, it's about wanting that for myself, and knowing that 99% of "hard modes" out there are just inflated HP Pools/stats.

The term gatekeeping itself is used to throw the perspective in a negative light from the onset, in order to poison the well for discussion that's already been had ad nauseum on this and many other sites.

We could go on and on about how having the same standard entry point and difficulty has made a community work together to find solutions and the meta commentary on how Dark Souls players learn to "break" the games, we could go into the fact that having everyone on one difficulty means that multiple solutions are found for problems that would have just been "flip it to easy mode before" or we could go into things like Souls games having summons which makes it easier (but apparently not easier enough) help negate this thread's premise.

But we won't, because it'll just come down to anyone wanting that experience being a "notorious gatekeeper" instead of just enjoying what putting everyone through the shit together has brought to the gaming experience.

If there were actual examples of people doing the things you're saying, like "dogpiling easy games" when people love games like Kirby and I never hear people going "Fuck this game we need a hard mode for this to be worth playing" or modding meaning that the difficulty is nerfed in any way (things like bug fixes or texture enhancements are just iteration not reinvention) then we'd have something to go off of, but you've created a theoretical strawman so we can have the same thread we have every month, where the people who want easy modes go against people who like hard mode being the "default" and the lack of nuance and discussion between those view points that will continue.
 

TechnicPuppet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,809
No one ever complains when a harder mode is added funny that. Also New Game + surely destroys the developers vision.
 

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,944
I think we are in agreeance from your other posts but that inital post did seem like you were not wanting more accessibility options and there are many others that want to gatekeep.

So my bad that i took it that way but thank you for going above and beyond with some of your other posts.

My point about accessibility options not being the same as difficulty is to say that just because you have an easy mode in your game does not inherently mean it is accessibility friendly.

Spider-Man can have an easy mode, but if it doesn't have a colorblind mode, QTE options, etc, it's not very accessible is it?

Video games are not a jar of cookies up on a shelf, they're an activity. There are some activities that a person in a wheelchair cannot do. It's definitely nice to keep them in mind when making your product if you aren't intentionally trying to make something that requires dexterity they don't have, but you should not be obligated to. Rather than use the example of something up on a shelf they can't reach, you're suggesting that nobody should be able to play football because someone in a wheelchair can't. Instead we should keep football and then make another sport they CAN play. How is THAT so bad to some people? Let everyone have their thing.

It's honestly incredible just how far people are willing to go to miss the point. I never said video games are a jar of cookies up on a shelf. I said without accessibility options, they are in a lot of cases literally unplayable, also known as INACCESSIBLE.

Video games are not physical sports. You do not have someone who built the humans and the game up and can then decide whether or not rules and options exist to ensure a level playing field for all participants. It's a false equivalence.

You continue to this shit point by saying "let everyone have their thing"

Well I can't exactly have my thing if I can't access it now, can I?
 

RadzPrower

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 19, 2018
6,040
Some people just want to sit back and enjoy the experience.
But what if that IS the experience?

Take Kaizo ROM hacks for instance. That stuff's borderline (or even entirely in a few rare cases) impossible for any human to complete, much less the majority of them. They are however being made for a very specific, niche group of people who are essentially masochists. The struggle IS the experience because it's (generally) all the same pieces and the same ending as the original game.

A game that just came out, Spelunky 2. It's a hard game, but it's not really about the mechanics of the game. It's hard because it's essentially unpredictable and you can just randomly die because the RNG gods are pissed at you today. It's hard by design in the sense that it's NOT designed. They created the pieces, but they did not actually assemble them by hand. The experience of that game is about getting a lucky run and gaining knowledge as you play...it's even kinda baked into the (very thin) narrative of the game.
 

Sidebuster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,405
California
So games are natural selection now? Games aren't "natural" or from nature, games are creations from people.

And if games are really "part art", then as art they would be able to be accessed and critiqued by anyone and everyone. At least there are other art venues that are trying here (and yes, they factor in "artist's intent" into their accessibility features):

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/06/multisensory-art/486200/

Natural selection? I understand that there are circumstances that would require something like government intervention to force companies to make their business accessible. There is merit to the argument that maybe game developers should be as well. But not every game is made by a billion dollar publisher. Art doesn't have to be seen by anybody if that's the artists intent. You're treating this like some absolute moral authority that's already banged their gavel on the matter. When the truth is, this argument will probably never have an absolute answer in regards to a game being forced to change to be accessible to everyone.
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,467
In general I think that the developers vision argument doesn't hold up. Because developers usually don't have a vision for a specific difficulty. They have a vision for a particular player experience.

That's an important distinction. Because for instance, if you watch my Mum play something like Beyond Two Souls, and after 30 minutes of failing the intro quick time event over and over again... you're not going to look at that player experience, as a designer, and say 'yeah, that's the designed experience, that's my design vision'.

You're going to want to change the game, so that that player can experience the game in the way as the rest of your audience. My Mum has very slow reaction times, so she couldn't keep up with a lot of the demands in Beyond. She couldn't experience the design vision.

Critically, difficulty isn't a set of parameters that you can tweak in a game. Difficulty is the subjective experience that results of an interaction between the players abilities, and the challenges presented by the game. No two players are going to experience the same difficulty.

So, assigning specific parameters for how your game should be played, ultimately falls short when it comes to providing the player experience envisioned by the game designer. In the example above, Beyond didn't achieve its design vision for my Mum, because the pre-set difficulty (requirement for reaction times) was too steep.

I don't think many people at Quantic Dream would look in on that experience. Watch how the game was not simply difficult, but impossible, and say 'yeah, that's our design vision'.

Truthfully, difficulty settings aren't just accessibility options (which they absolutely are), they also reflect an understanding of the fact that your game won't be experienced in the same way, by all players. In that sense, difficulty options go beyond accessibility, and are simply good game design.

For what it's worth, my full time job right now is 'game accessibility researcher'. What I do day to day is speak to developers and players about accessibility (more so, developers at the moment).
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,952
All games should have lots of accessibility options, doesn't need to necessarily be so limited as easy/normal/hard. Give people the accessibility options and they can have a custom difficulty and we can still get games like Souls which are balanced with 1 difficulty in mind.
 

Ashes of Dreams

Unshakable Resolve
Member
May 22, 2020
14,330
It's honestly incredible just how far people are willing to go to miss the point. I never said video games are a jar of cookies up on a shelf. I said without accessibility options, they are in a lot of cases literally unplayable, also known as INACCESSIBLE.

Video games are not physical sports. You do not have someone who built the humans and the game up and can then decide whether or not rules and options exist to ensure a level playing field for all participants. It's a false equivalence.

You continue to this shit point by saying "let everyone have their thing"

Well I can't exactly have my thing if I can't access it now, can I?
You don't have to be this rude and aggressive. I disagree with you and I think I explained my point very well. I do think video games are closer to physical sports than an object high on a shelf, so I disagree with your analogy. I don't think me saying "let everyone have their thing" is a "shit point", but this is part of why this conversation is often not worth having. You assume everyone who disagrees with you is some asshole, so you act like an asshole in turn, and a lot of people will just not want to deal with that.
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
Speaking as a developer, it's not about the creator's vision so much as the creator's time. It takes time to create multiple difficulties, and now the testers have double the things they need to test. This is time that could be spent making other aspects of the game better. So if I am not given the resources to make multiple difficulties, I'm going to try and make the best game based on my preferences and the game's original design. I could care less if people mod my game to make it easier or more difficult :)

Having said that, I've never worked on a game that was designed very specifically to be difficult as hell, where the difficulty itself is one of the game's defining features. I might have a different point of view then.
 

Nameless

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,343
It does because it proves people couldn't care less about developer's vision, they play the games the way they see fit to them. Anything else is a gatekeeping excuse.

So because I watch a Cable TV cut of film, or make an album playlist removing skits & instrumentals, I've rendered the creators' vision completely meaningless? I'm sorry but I don't agree.

It's not even really about "easy mode" for me. Always trying to spin opposing positions towards gatekeeping is incredibly unfair.

While I do have my opinions, creator/artistic autonomy is the thing I actually hold sacred. I've been saying forever that if Miyazaki wanted to include easier difficulty options, that I would 1000% support his right to do so.
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,154
NYC
How many difficult games are there where you cannot change the difficulty or is just From Software games?
Most rogue-likes do not have difficulty options--at least not in the traditional sense. The experience is often built around the release of tension that's been building due to your prior failures. Whether it be due to you putting together a character build that allows you to progress or because you've come to understand the mechanics of the game in such a way that allows you to continue.

It's one of those genres where the idea of a difficulty setting is murky. Hades has an option that reduces the amount of damage you take and as you die, that damage reduction bonus increases. Something like Spelunky/Spelunky 2 can't have that same option.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
My point about accessibility options not being the same as difficulty is to say that just because you have an easy mode in your game does not inherently mean it is accessibility friendly.

Spider-Man can have an easy mode, but if it doesn't have a colorblind mode, QTE options, etc, it's not very accessible is it?
Of course and all games need more accesibilty options and difficulty modes are just a portion of it, I think we are in agreement on the points.
 

Aureon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,819
Except it doesn't undermine the design goal. The "curated, expertly designed level of difficulty" is still there. Including an easier difficulty option doesn't force auto-parry on anyone playing the harder difficulties. The only difference is someone else can say "I beat Sekiro". But apparently that's a no-no.
A game designer's job is herding a player through an experience.

Players will generally take the path of least resistance.

Is the difficulty, the loss and the frustration a critical part of the experience?
There's like 10 titles where that is true, and they're perfectly justified in not having difficulty options.

Everything else should have them.
 

Ruisu

Banned
Aug 1, 2019
5,535
Brasil
or we could go into things like Souls games having summons which makes it easier (but apparently not easier enough) help negate this thread's premise.
Summons make it easier because the boss AI literally breaks since it's never, never designed to deal with more than one player.
That's not good design, and it's literally worse for "intended experience" than just adding an easy mode would be.

Also the argument is not retroactive. The community is already there. It won't go away because of an easy mode, the community is much more united by the lore than game difficulty. The difficulty only lasts for maybe one or two runs, the lore hunting lasts for years.
 

StayHandsome

Member
Nov 30, 2017
754
I think the real value in the lack of easy-mode isn't that the game is hard for everyone, it's that it's the same. From games aren't hard just to punish players; the difficulty is part of the world setting, and the oppressing sense of inevitable death is borne out through that. The fact that every player has this same singular experience is part of what gives it the sense of community, because we're all talking about the same trials and tribulations. Efforts to make the game easier have to come through clever circumventions of difficulty within the game itself, not in an option menu.

I'm fine with easy mode mods or maybe an optional DLC that adds easy mode or accessibility options that modify gameplay mechanics. If you had to go through a little extra effort to open up easy mode, it would mean the vast majority would all be playing on normal, so the sense of a unified experience could be protected.
 

F4r0_Atak

Member
Oct 31, 2017
5,516
Home
2. People disable filters like filme grain, motion blur and Chromatic aberration that are enabled by default and used in promo for the games - it's pretty clear that people working on the visual part of the game want you to play with these filters on and a lot of people dislike them and turn them off, hence, throwing developer's vision in the trash can. Again, same people championing creator's vision.
Most of the times, these have nothing to do with the creator's vision. It is either there for art direction consistancy/blending, animation smoothing or performance reasons.
 

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,944
You don't have to be this rude and aggressive. I disagree with you and I think I explained my point very well. I do think video games are closer to physical sports than an object high on a shelf, so I disagree with your analogy. I don't think me saying "let everyone have their thing" is a "shit point", but this is part of why this conversation is often not worth having. You assume everyone who disagrees with you is some asshole, so you act like an asshole in turn, and a lot of people will just not want to deal with that.

If your opinion is rooted in my inability to enjoy the same things that you do, because you consistently miss the point and counter with points that literally, again, prevent me from enjoying the same things you do, then yes, I'm going to call your shit points "shit points" because that's exactly what they are.

Excuse me for being absolutely tired of able bodied people attempting to compare accessibility options to physical sports.

Excuse me for being absolutely tired of able bodied people gatekeeping "creators vision" when that's never even been a thing.

Excuse me for being absolutely tired of able bodied people taking analogies of how accessibility works and taking it word for word literally.

Excuse me for being absolutely tired of able bodied people telling me that "well, not all games are made for everyone."

Don't engage in the conversation if you aren't willing to have your points viciously countered. We're tired.
 

Ashes of Dreams

Unshakable Resolve
Member
May 22, 2020
14,330
Don't engage in the conversation if you aren't willing to have your points viciously countered. We're tired.
I will engage in whatever conversation I wish and I will continue to tell people that they are being unnecessarily rude if I feel they are. You don't want to have a discussion, you want to yell at people.

There are things I cannot do, I am happy when things make it so I can do them, but I don't agree with the notion that everything should have to be made so that I can do it.
 

Strat

Member
Apr 8, 2018
13,329
Options never hurt anybody. Lack of options absolutely do. Why would you intentionally want to exclude people from something?
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
It does because it proves people couldn't care less about developer's vision, they play the games the way they see fit to them. Anything else is a gatekeeping excuse.
There are many people who do though. I think part of the trickiness here comes from games being both art and a product. When it comes to the idea of "vision", I see the piece of software that is the "game" as divided between artistic elements the creator is trying to express and technical elements that should ideally make the artistic elements as accessible as possible. But since that line is subjective, mods give us the best of all worlds by giving players the opportunity to make specific accessibility changes that weren't implemented in the base game for whatever reason AND lets other artists make completely transformative works.

There's like 10 titles where that is true, and they're perfectly justified in not having difficulty options.
I think this is a drastic underestimation.
 

Aureon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,819
Also, i feel like the attention this particular issue gets is conspicuous

It is very largely a won war - Practically all mainstream games release with either easy options, or very forgiving anti-frustration features, or a very low baseline difficulty
On the other hand, proper accessibility option - colorblind modes, full remapping, different feedbacks, twitch bypass, anti-epilepytic switches, etc are nowhere near as common

Different well-done difficulty modes are a much higher effort than practically any other accessibility option, yet somehow they're the only part of accessibility ever brought up

I won't ever get tired of saying this: Causes don't exist just to make you feel superior to others. Study them, understand them decently, talk with people affected, and then evangelize for the best actions to be taken
 

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,944
There are things I cannot do, I am happy when things make it so I can do them, but I don't agree with the notion that everything should have to be made so that I can do it.

Just say you want to gatekeep dude, it's a much shorter sentence to write that encapsulates your point than the lines upon lines you write trying to justify yourself.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,082
I think certain games there are legit reasons to say the developer's vision is the intended. Dark Souls literally is marketed as some game you will die over and over in. They had some bit where you play the game in a coffin. Dark Souls 2 's trailer is a guy dying repeatedly. The intended idea of the game is a steep difficulty and you will die or not even finish it. But for things like Skyrim? Naw. But one could argue the vision was to mod as well. Not sure.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,973
You don't have to be this rude and aggressive. I disagree with you and I think I explained my point very well. I do think video games are closer to physical sports than an object high on a shelf, so I disagree with your analogy. I don't think me saying "let everyone have their thing" is a "shit point", but this is part of why this conversation is often not worth having. You assume everyone who disagrees with you is some asshole, so you act like an asshole in turn, and a lot of people will just not want to deal with that.

I know, how dare people be frustrated and try to raise awareness of accessibility perspectives, all while people continue to make assumptions about them.

We have had multiple threads and conversations on this topic. Because this is a community site, each new thread carries the history of the previous conversations with it, and all the frustrations too. And after all that, someone being told what their behavior is and reducing what they want from this topic down to a style of conversation, is completely missing the picture.
 

StayHandsome

Member
Nov 30, 2017
754
Also the argument is not retroactive. The community is already there. It won't go away because of an easy mode, the community is much more united by the lore than game difficulty. The difficulty only lasts for maybe one or two runs, the lore hunting lasts for years.
This isn't true. There are constantly people late to the party, returning to the party, speed running it, trying out challenging or funky builds, finding new ways to beat bosses, and so on. As someone who has pumped thousands of hours into the Souls games, I can attest to the games still being difficult, and that difficulty being a core part of their enjoyment. It certainly didn't wear off after one or two runs.
 

En-ou

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,839
It's wild to think about how many games with difficulty options will have some note of "this is how the game is meant to be played" or somesuch, and that's no problem.

Except in From Games, where even offering a different difficulty is sacrilegious.

"bb-b-b-but how else would the player get the intended experience?????"
I don't see all those games being touted as a genre starter or best of the gen etc.

Since people seem to have an inability to understand, here's a visualization:

PzmSff7.png


People with disabilities are inherently going to have a more difficult and inaccessible experience with games that don't include accessibility options.

Was it the creators vision to essentially make the game harder and out of reach for entire group of people? No. In the case of Sekiro, they wanted the playing field to be equal.

What able bodied people in this thread and elsewhere FAIL to recognize is that accessibility options literally takes the inaccessible game and makes it accessible, and levels the playing field with able bodied people.

S7y8kwN.png


Able bodied people continuously forget in these discussions where they so passionately gatekeep the creators vision that they don't realize that its a fallacy.

Dark Souls, Sekiro, etc are created to be difficult so that players feel a sense of pride and accomplishment, right? They lack difficulty options so that everyone is on the same playing field, right?

How am I supposed to feel a sense of pride and accomplishment, and be on the same playing field with able bodied people if options don't exist for that to occur?

Shouldn't the people who so passionately gatekeep the creators vision be fighting with me for these options?

"But won't people who aren't disabled use the accessibility options to make the game easier for them, thus violating the creators vision?"

Won't we think of the able bodied people :(?
can we factor in summoning?
 
OP
OP
Swift_Gamer

Swift_Gamer

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
3,701
Rio de Janeiro
So because I watch a Cable TV cut of film, or make an album playlist removing skits & instrumentals, I've rendered the creators' vision completely meaningless? I'm sorry but I don't agree.

It's not even really about "easy mode" for me. Always trying to spin opposing positions towards gatekeeping is incredibly unfair.

While I do have my opinions, creator/artistic autonomy is the thing I actually hold sacred. I've been saying forever that if Miyazaki wanted to include easier difficulty options, that I would 1000% support his right to do so.
Yes, it does. You're challenging creator's vision. If you do it, you can't say a game can't have easy mode because it's not the creator's vision. It's one or the other, you can't have both. You're either gatekeeping or being a hypocrite. There's no escaping this.
 

ScoobsJoestar

Member
May 30, 2019
4,071
I legitimately prefer games without difficulty options because even though I don't pick the easy option knowing that difficulty can be switched off makes me lose interest in actually getting better at the game. I understand accessibility is more important than me enjoying a game though, so sure, put those modes in.

There are games that I think avoid this problem with me personally (the DMC series is great because each difficulty requires a different play style - like sure you can easily beat enemies on easy but if you want to S rank stuff you can't do the same tricks as in normal because they die too fast for it) so I'd still have games to play, I'd just lose interest in a few series.

But yeah end of the day me not enjoying games is a choice(is that the right word?) and people not being able to play due to disability is not a choice. So it's more fair that difficulty options become a thing.