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Sawa

Banned
Oct 24, 2019
223
Scotland
Do people have to keep saying difficulty is not an accessibility issue in these threads.
Not all accessibility issues are related to difficulty but difficulty is an accessibility issue. Just because it might not be for you doesn't mean it is not an accessibility issue for many of us.
Quit with the ableism and/or essentially seperating Disabled people into good disabled people (who don't need difficulty options) and bad/not really disabled people (who do).

The OP is correct there is frequently not any internal consistency from those who cite developers' vision as rationale for not having different difficulty modes.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,374
We include multiple difficulty levels in our games, and I still see people say that they want to play the difficulty that best reflects our "vision." I'm the one who put multiple difficulties in the game - my vision is that you pick the difficulty that you'll have the most fun with because different people want different things. I like playing turn-based RPGs on a high difficulty level. My kids like playing it on super-easy so they can progress stress-free. If I can set things up so both groups (and everyone in-between) have fun, then I'm going to do that.
 

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,944
Am I crazy for thinking that saying "games don't need to be for everyone" is inherently ableist because the only people being literally prevented from even having the choice of deciding if a game is for them are people who cannot access the fucking game?
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Am I crazy for thinking that saying "games don't need to be for everyone" is inherently ableist because the only people being literally prevented from even having the choice of deciding if a game is for them are people who cannot access the fucking game?

No, I'm there with you.
 
Jun 26, 2018
3,829
Has anyone ever addressed that a seemingly large part of what's driving this kind of difficulty discourse is explicitly tied to a certain level of FOMO?

Like it's usually spikes up a lot when a popular game that is explicitly know for being "difficult" is released and everyone is hyped about it.

Feel like we didn't even see a fraction of this discourse when Nioh 2 released.
 

8byte

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,880
Kansas
People will champion every type of accessibility option until it takes away from their ability to feel special because they played a hard game.

Gatekeepers are children.

Also more games need options like TLoU2. Make games accessible to wide swaths of gamers to enjoy.
 

Mifec

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,752
Am I crazy for thinking that saying "games don't need to be for everyone" is inherently ableist because the only people being literally prevented from even having the choice of deciding if a game is for them are people who cannot access the fucking game?
No, you're not and you know you're not because people already got warnings for doing this in accessibility threads.
 

_zoipi

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 23, 2017
2,377
Madrid
Has anyone ever addressed that a seemingly large part of what's driving this kind of difficulty discourse is explicitly tied to a certain level of FOMO?

Like it's usually spikes up a lot when a popular game that is explicitly know for being "difficult" is released and everyone is hyped about it.

Feel like we didn't even see a fraction of this discourse when Nioh 2 released.
It's always when a From Software game releases... Such a coincidence.
 

Sidebuster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,406
California
Huh? So if someone has less ability to play a game due to physical constraints, they can just find another game they have more ability to play by checking out reviews or listening to others' opinions? Even if they're not being dismissive, a majority of people don't have sufficient perspectives to provide such opinions on accessibility as it is.

There is always going to be somebody not able to have access to something due to their disabilities or finances, etc. It's better if the game developers implement as many accessibility features as possible, but eventually they'll have to move on.

Some games are just going to be naturally inaccessible due to mechanics. For instance a fast paced reaction based game is going to leave a lot of people unable to keep up. Should the developer implement features to help alleviate this? Sure, but its up to them because it may fundamentally ruin the game they set out to make. It'll also take time and money to implement where some developers may just not have that ability.

You need to remember games are essentially part art and you're asking them to adjust their art work to be more accessible. But in doing so, it may effectively ruin the art as it was intended. It really takes a case by case basis in seeing what can be done and what can't.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,225
Ironically, this quote directly contradicts every fucking defense of Demon Souls difficulty and why the developers "shouldnt" include accessibility options that I've seen on this site.

As I've said time and again, you can include accessibility options for these games without compromising on your vision for creating that sense of a accomplishment.

I disagree. There is zero chance that someone beating Sekiro's final boss and someone beating Sekiro's final boss with an auto-parry mod on would have the same reaction or sense of accomplishment. If the game designer's stated objective is to provide that feeling to players, then offering a win-button for content tourists would completely undermine that design goal.
 

RadzPrower

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 19, 2018
6,049
What can be viewed as gatekeeping on one side can just as easily be viewed as entitled on the other side.

You are not in any way required to play a given game and, at the same time, developers are not required to cater to you.

Accessibility is of course a whole other matter, but that can and should be addressed in ways other than strict difficulty settings. Accessibility should be addressed with things like control options, colorblind modes, etc. which don't "dumb down" the game but just address specific issues that impact the player and allow them to have an equal chance to others in their own way.

Being generically hard is not an accessibility issue though...it's a style and a choice.
 

MrWindUpBird

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,686
I appreciate you making this thread but as can be seen from every other thread we've had on the subject, Era is incapable of having a thoughtful discussion on accessibility without belittling those who need or want these options in their games. I've given up on this place ever fixing the toxicity that comes from someone wanting an easy mode to play a game.
 

Japanmanx3

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,913
Atlanta, GA
Interesting to see this thread come around again, with similar names on the first page.

I'll say this... Accessibility is a warranted concern amongst all games. Few titles have done it well, in consideration of those with physical disabilities. I can't, and won't, argue that.

Game design and development in terms of difficulty modes or scaling is not universally fluid. Expecting that it should be for every game will leave those that want it more disappointed than not. Most games are built on fundamental principles to be conquered through learning through trial and error. Wanting to usurp that principle is something that is counter to the medium itself, traditionally speaking. Easier games can be seen as cheaper in value. Cheapening your brand can be detrimental in many ways from a developer point of view. Is that the right thing to do? Idk. Just saying what it is. FROM makes hard games to support their value. Would the option for them to be easier be beneficial for them? Subjectively speaking, maybe. That's on them to decide.

Options are good. Accessibility is good. Good games can still from games that don't excel in those areas. They aren't objectionably worse off if one person out of tens of thousands or millions can't enjoy it. That's life unfortunately. Not everything is made for everyone. Ideally that would be great. But that isn't the reality.
 
Last edited:

Desi

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,210
I disagree. There is zero chance that someone beating Sekiro's final boss and someone beating Sekiro's final boss with an auto-parry mod on would have the same reaction or sense of accomplishment. If the game designer's stated objective is to provide that feeling to players, then offering a win-button for content tourists would completely undermine that design goal.
eh, that would be subjective to the player. The game would not be the same with the auto-parry mod. yes.
 

RPGam3r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,519
This topic is complicated, but I don't think making the assumption that the people defending developer's vision are the same people that that mod/deride easier games/etc. helps this conversation.
 

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,944
I disagree. There is zero chance that someone beating Sekiro's final boss and someone beating Sekiro's final boss with an auto-parry mod on would have the same reaction or sense of accomplishment. If the game designer's stated objective is to provide that feeling to players, then offering a win-button for content tourists would completely undermine that design goal.

Stop looking at what a disabled person's sense of accomplishment might be through the lens of someone who is able bodied.

Your threshold for what is accomplishment is much more easily crossed than it is for me. So imagine for a second that you don't have the fine motor skills to actually play the game the way an able bodied person might play the game. That means that playing the game is more challenging for me than it is for you.

And if accessibility options don't exist to level the playing field, isn't that directly voiding the developers vision that YALL so desperately gatekeep?
 

PBalfredo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,496
What if its true though?


I dont mod games, and I think a curated, expertly designed level of difficulty is very satisfying. Some developers choose market accessibility, but not everyone feels the same way when designing their games.
I disagree. There is zero chance that someone beating Sekiro's final boss and someone beating Sekiro's final boss with an auto-parry mod on would have the same reaction or sense of accomplishment. If the game designer's stated objective is to provide that feeling to players, then offering a win-button for content tourists would completely undermine that design goal.
Except it doesn't undermine the design goal. The "curated, expertly designed level of difficulty" is still there. Including an easier difficulty option doesn't force auto-parry on anyone playing the harder difficulties. The only difference is someone else can say "I beat Sekiro". But apparently that's a no-no.

Trying to shout down calls for easier difficulties is gatekeeping, even when invoking developer intent to shield yourself from accusations of gatekeeping. Especially when, as you quoted, the developers themselves are encouraging gatekeeping.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
Re: #3

I've never seen people here "dogpile" an easy game the way they freak out about wanting easy mode in souls games.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
People complain about hard games all the time so I don't know what you mean OP.

It is a devs choice and if they don't want to do it then that's fine. Nothing wrong with anyone criticizing them for that decision to have multiple difficulties or not.

Mod support is denied by the developers all the time. Plenty of devs go out of their way to make modding difficult or ban people who mod games. Modding has always been a niche activity used by a handful of people with full knowledge that they are altering the game.

If the developers intent was for you to play with all the visual options on then they wouldn't let you turn them off. The option existing implies that the ability to have it off is also a form of an intended experience.
 

Ruisu

Banned
Aug 1, 2019
5,535
Brasil
From Software games, as much as I love them, could have an easy mode that only changes damage and health values and it would make them instantly more accessible without compromising the vision of the game at all for players who still want the challenge.

More health and less damage means you get to experience the bosses and their patterns for longer without the frustration of dying. More people would get to learn to get good at the games with less of a entry barrier and you could even out the difficulty at later bosses and levels since it's a commonly expectation for games to get harder as you progress.
 

Timeaisis

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,139
Austin, TX
I do not think there's a one-size-fits-all solution to this problem, and there never will be. The issue, of course, is balancing for multiple difficulties while still making it fun for each. If you were to ask me would I rather have multiple difficulty options with only 1 really balanced in a reasonable way vs a single difficulty without an option that is optimally balanced because it's the only one available, I'd chose the latter every time. Jedi Fallen Order had this problem big time.

Difficulty selection works great for games that are easily scalable, like RPGs. When it's stat-based, its much easier to scale difficulty in a way that still feels fun to the player. The more we move from stat-based gameplay the less scalable difficulty becomes and the more hand-wavy difficulty optimization is (because they are frequently adjusted via stats, anyway, because that is the easiest way to do it) or "this feels right". Does that translate to a fun gameplay experience? Not really. Should the player be allowed to select that experience if they want? Sure, I guess.

At the end of the day, my point is this:
Do I want a Souls game with difficulty options? Yes. Do I think that's possible without sacrificing the balance of the "intended" difficulty? Yes, but not without a significant amount of extra work. As a developer would I be willing to risk that? No, probably not.

This is why I think skipping content is the way to go. Difficulty adjustment will hardly ever be an optimal experience.
 

Thera

Banned
Feb 28, 2019
12,876
France
There is zero chance that someone beating Sekiro's final boss and someone beating Sekiro's final boss with an auto-parry mod on would have the same reaction or sense of accomplishment.
  1. Who asked for an auto-parry mod?
  2. The sense of accomplishment is relative for any individuals.
  3. The sense of difficulty is relative for any individuals.
 

Raigor

Member
May 14, 2020
15,146
Every developer is free to make hard/easy games and if these games are hard/easy for you just skip them and play something else.
It's simple as that.
 

MrWindUpBird

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,686
User Banned (3 days): Threadwhining over a series of posts; Hostility
Every developer is free to make hard/easy games and if these games are hard/easy for you just skip them and play something else.
It's simple as that.
Man, can we really fuck off with this kind of bullshit? People like you always pop up in these threads and add literally nothing to the conversation. Ignore the thread if it bothers you so much.
 

Thera

Banned
Feb 28, 2019
12,876
France
Do I want a Souls game with difficulty options? Yes. Do I think that's possible without sacrificing the balance of the "intended" difficulty? Yes, but not without a significant amount of extra work. As a developer would I be willing to risk that? No, probably not.
Taking less damage, doing more damage, increase perfect parry window, increase invulnerability window when rolling / dodging, increase time between two ennemies attack ? That's not difficult to do.
 

Comet

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,532
Back in my younger days (highschool and college specifically), I adored difficult games and would love starting a new game on the hardest difficulty choice available. I remember being a shitty gamer fan by griefing people who liked easier games or settings. The funny thing is now with kids and a crazy job, I much prefer to invest 7-10 hours beating a game on Easy mode for the sake of moving on to a new experience vs. investing 50+ hours on one game to beat it on the hardest mode.

We all value different things, and what we value changes over time. Therefore, games that offer more choices should be applauded!
 

Raigor

Member
May 14, 2020
15,146
Man, can we really fuck off with this kind of bullshit? People like you always pop up in these threads and add literally nothing to the conversation. Ignore the thread if it bothers you so much.

Wait wait, so now you are not allowed to post your opinion? Give me a fucking break.

Nothing is bothering me, but expecting all devs to make easy modes for their harder games is never going to happen.

There are games offering choices and others do not and it's perfectly fine, not every game is for everyone and not all developers are equal

And, who is fucking dogpiling games from being easy, the 3rd point is completely bullshit.

If From Software doesn't want to add an easy mode what can you do? Nothing, that's their philosophy and they stick with it.
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,328
I disagree. There is zero chance that someone beating Sekiro's final boss and someone beating Sekiro's final boss with an auto-parry mod on would have the same reaction or sense of accomplishment. If the game designer's stated objective is to provide that feeling to players, then offering a win-button for content tourists would completely undermine that design goal.
If you have a disability that makes playing games like Sekiro more difficult, that's already straying far from getting the same experience. In fact, the whole set of quotes surrounding Souls games shows the developer did not even put any real thought into players with disabilities. No, summoning doesn't count as an accessibility option. It's a worse option since it becomes a choice between not progressing or having to have someone else do it for you.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,380
1. Create the game you want and set a default difficulty
2. Release it
3. Prompt the player when they attempt to change the difficulty that they are altering the developer's vision and the overall presentation of the game and that they are actively making the intended experience worse for themselves

Done. Give people options. Explain the options.
 
Jun 26, 2018
3,829
I've been playing a lot of hades lately and I really like the way they handle difficulty.

They allow you to change a lot of discreet modifiers that each make a specific aspect of the game more difficult, like enemy speed or the number of enemies and so forth.

Only problem is if the base game itself is too difficult, but in that case they have a "god mode" in the options that makes the game easier, don't know if it shows visually if used, but I would like to think so.
 

Ruisu

Banned
Aug 1, 2019
5,535
Brasil
Look if games with combat as mechanically complex as Devil May Cry can do easy modes then any game can.
 

EggmaniMN

Banned
May 17, 2020
3,465
1. Create the game you want and set a default difficulty
2. Release it
3. Prompt the player when they attempt to change the difficulty that they are altering the developer's vision and the overall presentation of the game and that they are actively making the intended experience worse for themselves

Done. Give people options. Explain the options.

Telling disabled people theyre doing things wrong for using options aimed at them is immensely wrong.
 

lusca_bueno

Member
Nov 23, 2017
1,472
Completely agree. People would still have the option to play the game "as intended by the creative vision" (normal mode), but they feel horrified by the fact someone will have easier access to completing it if they choose so. I mean... is bragging about completing it while others don't that important?
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,380
Telling disabled people theyre doing things wrong for using options aimed at them is immensely wrong.
Just so you know, I agree with you. But I'm trying to find an answer to all of the gatekeeping trolls that insist on the developer's vision being a sanctified perspective that must be respected.
 

Kneefoil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,452
1. People mod games - the same people that champion developer's creation are eager to mod games. So if developer's vision was really that important, nobody would mod games because it disrupts the game intended way of playing
When people bring up "developer's vision" it's usually about how every developer should be allowed to make their games the way they want and not be forced to spend resources on things they don't deem that important for their vision. It's not really "You should only play the game the way it's intended." I can think of only few fandoms that can be adamant that their beloved games should be played a certain way (Dark Souls, Fire Emblem...). Most are cool with you playing however you like.

Besides, if a game is moddable, it can be modded to be easier anyway, although I've not heard of any full-on Easy Mode mods.

2. People disable filters like filme grain, motion blur and Chromatic aberration that are enabled by default and used in promo for the games - it's pretty clear that people working on the visual part of the game want you to play with these filters on and a lot of people dislike them and turn them off, hence, throwing developer's vision in the trash can. Again, same people championing creator's vision.
One could argue that the fact that the devs are giving you the option to disable certain features means that the choice is part of their vision.

3. People dogpile easy games - this happens a lot. People complaining games are too easy, too hand holding. So what? It's the creator's vision. And even more: people harass some developers so much they end up adding new, sometimes very balanced, hard modes. Again, nobody respects Creator's vision when it comes to easy games.
People complaining about some games being too easy does happen quite a bit, this is true. That being said people should be able to complain about the lack of challenge being detrimental to their enjoyment, just like you should be allowed to voice opinion about a game which does not have an easy mode / a difficulty that's suitable for you.
 

PBalfredo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,496
It's wild to think about how many games with difficulty options will have some note of "this is how the game is meant to be played" or somesuch, and that's no problem.

Except in From Games, where even offering a different difficulty is sacrilegious.

"bb-b-b-but how else would the player get the intended experience?????"
 

Sean Mirrsen

Banned
May 9, 2018
1,159
Am I crazy for thinking that saying "games don't need to be for everyone" is inherently ableist because the only people being literally prevented from even having the choice of deciding if a game is for them are people who cannot access the fucking game?
But... games really don't need to be for everyone. Whatever person you pick, there will be games they cannot enjoy, for a variety of reasons. Forcing games to be accessible to everyone will just decay game designs and genres to the point where it'll be one homogeneous mess. You can't make a person who can't enjoy and doesn't have the capacity to play strategy games, good at strategy games - not without making the game play itself, at which point it's the equivalent of handing them a disconnected controller and cheering on them for "helping", which is just condescending.

Stop looking at what a disabled person's sense of accomplishment might be through the lens of someone who is able bodied.

Your threshold for what is accomplishment is much more easily crossed than it is for me. So imagine for a second that you don't have the fine motor skills to actually play the game the way an able bodied person might play the game. That means that playing the game is more challenging for me than it is for you.

And if accessibility options don't exist to level the playing field, isn't that directly voiding the developers vision that YALL so desperately gatekeep?
Outside of the gaming sphere, the world already has a series of events where participants directly compete against each other, overcoming challenges and comparing their achievements. And in the interest of fairness, the regular Olympics and the Special Olympics are separate events.

I do not mind the inclusion of "easy modes" in games. But I do mind when people, for any reason, want to claim the same level of achievement for "completing" the game on different difficulty levels. They are different levels of challenge. Overcoming them should produce different rewards, and different acknowledgement.

As you say, to a disabled person, completing the lesser achievement - finishing the game with assists or on an easier difficulty - is in itself a greater achievement. So why can't the games clearly delineate the level of those achievements, whether literally as achievements or through other means like labelling the intended difficulty level as "normal", so that the people with reduced ability can still boast their feats, without infringing on the sense of accomplishment of those for whom it was the greater challenge that provided the same sense of achievement?

At what point do the people who desire greater challenge become the minority that has to beg for the industry to cater to them as well? Why is it only gatekeeping if it's the ones who want less are shut out, and not the ones that want more? So few games still cater to the hardcore crowd nowadays, with all of the industry increasingly targeting broad age and social groups to maximize profits. Why is it that out of hundreds of games that release every year, it's the few that still position themselves for the challenge-oriented gamers that draw everyone's fire? The industry is full of games that cater or try to cater to everyone, why can't hardcore gamers have their own little island in it too?
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
Casual reminder that easy modes and accessibility features are not the same thing. Just cause they share overlap does not mean they are 1:1.
Not all games are for everyone. easy difficulty != accessibility
They are both related and to pretend that more accessibility is a bad thing including more difficulty modes and options is gatekeeping and continues to be a huge issue.

I disagree. There is zero chance that someone beating Sekiro's final boss and someone beating Sekiro's final boss with an auto-parry mod on would have the same reaction or sense of accomplishment. If the game designer's stated objective is to provide that feeling to players, then offering a win-button for content tourists would completely undermine that design goal.
You can disagree but that doesn't make anyone wanting it is wrong. It doesn't undermine anything but the gatekeeping around from games is certainly something.
 
OP
OP
Swift_Gamer

Swift_Gamer

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
3,701
Rio de Janeiro
The difficulty isn't a separate part of the game that can be fine tuned independently. It's a function of how the rules and mechanics work. If a developer fine tunes those to their exact liking and stands behind it then that's their artistic expression, not gatekeeping.

Accesibility is about making a game accessible, not changing how it plays. Difficulty shouldn't be lumped into that category.
It's gatekeeping. You don't care about that when you change filter that came enabled by default. You don't care about that when you mod games. It's gatekeeping.
 

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,944
Since people seem to have an inability to understand, here's a visualization:

PzmSff7.png


People with disabilities are inherently going to have a more difficult and inaccessible experience with games that don't include accessibility options.

Was it the creators vision to essentially make the game harder and out of reach for entire group of people? No. In the case of Sekiro, they wanted the playing field to be equal.

What able bodied people in this thread and elsewhere FAIL to recognize is that accessibility options literally takes the inaccessible game and makes it accessible, and levels the playing field with able bodied people.

S7y8kwN.png


Able bodied people continuously forget in these discussions where they so passionately gatekeep the creators vision that they don't realize that its a fallacy.

Dark Souls, Sekiro, etc are created to be difficult so that players feel a sense of pride and accomplishment, right? They lack difficulty options so that everyone is on the same playing field, right?

How am I supposed to feel a sense of pride and accomplishment, and be on the same playing field with able bodied people if options don't exist for that to occur?

Shouldn't the people who so passionately gatekeep the creators vision be fighting with me for these options?

"But won't people who aren't disabled use the accessibility options to make the game easier for them, thus violating the creators vision?"

Won't we think of the able bodied people :(?
 

fracas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,648
The gatekeeping people do with hard games is hilarious

it takes 30 seconds to add basic difficulty modes and i don't wanna hear that BS about how it makes game balance harder. literally just do a toggle that makes me take less damage and deal more. design around "hard" as the default, that's totally fine, but this is a basic accessibility option that in no way diminishes your enjoyment of the game
 

Ruisu

Banned
Aug 1, 2019
5,535
Brasil
Mechanically complex =/= hard. DMC is more about styling on the enemies than it is being hard to kill them.
If mechanical complexity isn't what makes the game hard, then what else is stopping an easy mode? Outside of this complexity, combat is just health and damage numbers.

Also DMC has plenty of enemies that are hard to kill to different degrees, or did you forget the Blitz in 4 and the Summoner in 5?
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,698
I made a thread forever and a day ago that the "creator's vision" is a meaningless emotional crutch for gamers to protect whatever it is they feel is under attack, by calling you a filthy advocate for censorship for daring to suggest that creators can fuck up and the audience can have better ideas. Back in the day, the battle was including minorities in non-bigoted ways. Today it's difficulty settings. Tomorrow it'll probably be the $70 price tag. Either way, it's all bullshit.