Destiny 2 Monetization and Engagement Levels drop to pre-Forsaken levels again

[Dodgerfan74]

I had fun with Forsaken when it launched, but the reliance on time-gating and trying to stretch the content way past its limits helped kill it for me. I can only run the same damn dreaming city quests so many times.

Also, it's a loot game without loot. I quit just shy of 600 without a damn exotic dropping except hunter gloves that were so broken Bungie just said fuck it, removed one of its perks, and left it like that.

Destiny will always have a surprisingly large playerbase though so it's not like a disaster situation for Bungie. Unfortunately, I think Bungie is just kind of a middling dev now. They can put out some great content, but it's always interspersed with tons of mundane nonsense and endless inane game design.

 

[Gankzymcfly]

It seems like you don't want to listen to anybody. You have preemptively told everybody not to tell you that character level means little to nothing and you can max it out in a few days. Your level restricts what power level gear you can equip, and all that really matters is the average power level of all your gear and armor.

The core content remains accessible to everybody without the DLCs, and future expansions always include updates that all can enjoy

See image below for the Forsaken roadmap

https://i.imgur.com/yEzFmNy.jpg

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Yea like I said I'm sure all that's true, but I don't like being reminded I'm only playing less then half a game. You can defend it however you want that's how the game made both me and my friend feel and how it continues to make us feel. When I play rb6 siege I never get the feeling like I'm missing out on anything by not owning the season pass. Destiny 2s base game feels like it should be a f2p game which is likely why it's been free on every platform other than Xbox. Even little things like the way the game handles shaders now in comparison to how they were handled in destiny 1 makes the game feel like a f2p game.


And let's go deeper into what you said..."your level only restricts what power level gear you can wear"...100 percent correct...I have 4 epic(purple) pieces of armor in my inventory that require level 40 something that I recieved from doing random activities(potentially crucible?)...so the rewards I'm getting in the game for playing only serve the purpose of reminding me that I don't own the dlc and I can never equip those items unless I want to fork over more money.

You can tell me I'm playing the game wrong, you can tell me that I should be doing this activity over that activity to optimize my rewards, but it seems like unless I'm willing to do some significant research and jump through a series of loops I'm going to run into these reminders that im lesser than for not owning the dlc.

 

[Akita One]

Dead Hardcore Bungie Defenders,

When the vast majority of people say they want matchmaking, what they actually mean is they want a way to group up with other randoms without having to leave the game. In other words, LFG. It's something that should have been built into the game from day 1. The fact that we're at year 4 and Bungie still refuse to even talk about the chance of maybe possibly doing it tells us all we need to know about Bungie as a development team. Perhaps if they did that, they wouldn't have such embarrassingly low completion percentages for the raids.

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People can't seem to grasp that people want to play their own way...when they want to play...with who they want to play with. It's embarrassing how defensive the Destiny hardcore gets over something that would never affect them. Can't recall a game that forced matchmaking on everyone without an option to make your own teams. They are basically devs at Bungie at this point...the same 4 criticisms in here are overwhelming, and has nothing to do with Fortnite or RDR2 or any other game:

1. The base content available is the easiest of any modern shooter, while requiring you to grind the same content for weeks/months on end, just to get to the level to play the postgame.
2. Random rolls plus the lack of real visual variety of loot has overly-simplified the loot chase to a few things to look out for, 90% of everything else is sharded.
3. Too much content doesn't involve shooting, but watching loading screens, collecting items, turning things in...driving across a map for cinematic reasons...it adds to a time-sink which becomes crippling when you work an hour for two 3+ engrams.
4. Raids and the other postgame content do not look engaging enough to ignore #1-#3 on its own merits.

 

[Dunk]

Yea like I said I'm sure all that's true, but I don't like being reminded I'm only playing less then half a game. You can defend it however you want that's how the game made both me and my friend feel and how it continues to make us feel. When I play rb6 siege I never get the feeling like I'm missing out on anything by not owning the season pass. Destiny 2s base game feels like it should be a f2p game which is likely why it's been free on every platform other than Xbox. Even little things like the way the game handles shaders now in comparison to how they were handled in destiny 1 makes the game feel like a f2p game.


And let's go deeper into what you said..."your level only restricts what power level gear you can wear"...100 percent correct...I have 4 epic(purple) pieces of armor in my inventory that require level 40 something that I recieved from doing random activities(potentially crucible?)...so the rewards I'm getting in the game for playing only serve the purpose of reminding me that I don't own the dlc and I can never equip those items unless I want to fork over more money.

You can tell me I'm playing the game wrong, you can tell me that I should be doing this activity over that activity to optimize my rewards, but it seems like unless I'm willing to do some significant research and jump through a series of loops I'm going to run into these reminders that im lesser than for not owning the dlc.

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Destiny is not comparable to a game like RB6. Much deeper with much more than a simple campaign and some multiplayer matches.

Since D1 launched back in 2014 the only other game I have played is RE7 in VR. I still have not maxed out my level while working towards it nearly every day. Always something to do.

A game this deep does require some research, and the deeper I dig the more I like it. From optimizing builds to understanding difficult encounters to a deeper understanding of the lore. All of that can go as deep as you want it to.

People can't seem to grasp that people want to play their own way...when they want to play...with who they want to play with. It's embarrassing how defensive the Destiny hardcore gets over something that would never affect them. Can't recall a game that forced matchmaking on everyone without an option to make your own teams. They are basically devs at Bungie at this point...the same 4 criticisms in here are overwhelming, and has nothing to do with Fortnite or RDR2 or any other game:

1. The base content available is the easiest of any modern shooter, while requiring you to grind the same content for weeks/months on end, just to get to the level to play the postgame.
2. Random rolls plus the lack of real visual variety of loot has overly-simplified the loot chase to a few things to look out for, 90% of everything else is sharded.
3. Too much content doesn't involve shooting, but watching loading screens, collecting items, turning things in...driving across a map for cinematic reasons...it adds to a time-sink which becomes crippling when you work an hour for two 3+ engrams.
4. Raids and the other postgame content do not look engaging enough to ignore #1-#3 on its own merits.

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Anybody that has completed a raid can tell you why matchmaking it not available. It can take 6+ hours for some pre-made teams to complete them the first time.

They tried to enable matchmaking for the recent forge activities which are massively easier and it still ruins the experience since the odds of getting two other players that know what they are doing are low.

They provided the guided games option so solo players could match up with teams of 4-5 that need a fill in and want to guide them.

Almost all of the content has matchmaking except for very difficult content that requires tight coordination

 

[Akita One]

The new games are one thing, but there are online-focused games out there that are starting to surpass Destiny in the areas that actually matter, and some that have already done that.

Destiny 2 has hit the threshold for me where I honestly don't care enough to grind light levels, and I'm ashamed it took me this long to do it. Forsaken was a neat expansion, but it's also not remotely the game-changer people say it is, and the Dreaming City is overrated. I took one look at Black Armory and said "fuck that shit".

I've long gone back to Warframe for my online shooter stuff (and this was before Fortuna), and occasionally Fortnite STW. For all its faults, Warframe has a lot of varied content, and you're actually grinding for shit that is often unique. Even despite how much time I've spent on this game, I feel like there's still so much more content of actual substance to get through rather than grinding light levels.

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Yup, and much earlier in this thread I simplified it to this: D2 must have the least bullets per hour that the average player shoots, of any modern shooter. Shooters are headed towards battle royale and large versions of territory/capture the flag gamemodes that focus on being good at shooting your opponent and the strategy behind it...with full matchmaking or LFG. Look how much flak Fortnite gets for the building aspects...but you are still shooting alot more than during a 1 hour raid where you spend platforming and tossing balls through hoops.

In other games...simply performing well against your opponent...and sometimes winning...is enough, and no content is locked behind a grind.

 

[Nooblet]

Destiny is not comparable to a game like RB6. Much deeper with much more than a simple campaign and some multiplayer matches.

Since D1 launched back in 2014 the only other game I have played is RE7 in VR. I still have not maxed out my level while working towards it nearly every day. Always something to do.

A game this deep does require some research, and the deeper I dig the more I like it. From optimizing builds to understanding difficult encounters to a deeper understanding of the lore. All of that can go as deep as you want it to.

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Vanilla D1 was a very barebones game, it says something when the beta of that game is considered to be like 25% of the whole game by the community. I have no hesitation in saying vanilla Siege had more content than vanilla D1. RB6 is likely the deepest shooter on market atm. The level of effort that goes into making 1 map and 1 operator in that game is immense simply because that 1 operator has to fit into the meta of existing maps and operators and the maps themselves in this game are unlike anything you have in other games due to the way destruction works. I have played Siege regularly over 3 years and I still do not know the original maps fully as there are so many things you can do with the map that it's just practically impossible to know it all plus even a slight change will affect everything you know. Regardless we do have one game that's comparable to Destiny in terms of what it's trying to do and it's a F2P game with a much better content output (both in terms of frequency and how dense the content is) than Destiny and that game is Warframe.

Now Forsaken was astonishingly good but the problem with Destiny is that they are doing a paid GaaS model and that's not inherently bad, what's bad is that their output is not as substantial as it should be especially when you do consider that it's all paid content. During D1 days we were told that it was all because of their slow content creator and with D2 things will change, now I won't lie and say that it hasn't gotten better but it hasn't improved enough when we still got dumpster fire like Curse of Osiris and Black Armory (only saving grace is that atleast this one has a decent raid). Then there's the ever present issue of dilly dallying and going back and forth between changes. As it stands we get 1 big Destiny content a year and then until the next year we get bite sized content 2-3 times. Compare Warframe again, it got a huge DLC with Fortuna about a month or so after Forsaken. Then it's getting another huge DLC in Feb/March with RailJack and then around August it'll get another big DLC. And the funny thing is that DLC next year is the first time they'll do a story DLC since earlier this year. My point being even not having story DLC is not a problem as long as it's sizeable and feels worth it. I bought the year pass 2 days before Black Armory, then I started playing Black Armory and was astonished at what we got.

 

[FinFunnels]

I love Destiny and play it daily, but I very rarely buy Silver or the "loot boxes" (engrams). None of the Eververse stuff is appealing enough to make me want to spend real money to get it right away. Most of the stuff I'm interested in I will eventually get from the free level up engrams.

 

[Gankzymcfly]

Destiny is not comparable to a game like RB6. Much deeper with much more than a simple campaign and some multiplayer matches.

Since D1 launched back in 2014 the only other game I have played is RE7 in VR. I still have not maxed out my level while working towards it nearly every day. Always something to do.

A game this deep does require some research, and the deeper I dig the more I like it. From optimizing builds to understanding difficult encounters to a deeper understanding of the lore. All of that can go as deep as you want it to.

Click to shrink...

I'm surprised how lengthy you made that response while at the same time not responding to any of the actual criticisms (getting items I can't use unless I buy dlc, the change of how shaders work etc). I'm glad you can find so much enjoyment in the game, even if you do have to pick and choose carefully what experiences your going to talk about so as to paint the game in as positive a light as possible. I have little doubt that you have bought every single dlc destiny 2 has to offer. Your experiences throughout the game have likely come from the perspective of a "have" user and don't really reflect the experience of those of us "have nots" who are lesser than.

 

[Akita One]

Anybody that has completed a raid can tell you why matchmaking it not available. It can take 6+ hours for some pre-made teams to complete them the first time.

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So what? How does it affect you? Why is this the only mode in any game ever that doesn't have LFG/matchmaking? People want to play when they want with who they want, not download and log into a bunch of apps.

I'm sorry but the raids are not hard, and we have Youtube...geez people act like we should award Doctorate degrees based on your raid clears. I played the raid my first time with other noobs and we made it halfway and gave up...but we had fun! Because we learned together, and most importantly...I didn't have to book an appointment on my calendar to team up with someone who does and knows everything, and chides me on my gear and whatnot.

Raids on FFXIV are much harder...people learn on the fly, over hours...because that's what they want to do.

Geez I'll never understand why people think adding LFG/matchmaking to D2 somehow hurts you or remove your ability to only play with experts. Do you really think that D2 has anywhere near to the toughest multiplayer PvE out there?

 

[asmith906]

I bought a PS4 in part because of destiny 1. I can't be bothered to even start destiny 2 despite receiving it for free on several different platforms.

 

[Dunk]

There is nothing in fortnite even close to a Destiny raid. Comparing apples and oranges

Average teams take much longer than an hour to complete a raid with numerous failures due to how tight the coordination needs to be

If all you want to do is turn a game on and shoot some things real quick then run Crucible or strikes. Raids have more to them for a reason. Variety is a good thing.

Yup, and much earlier in this thread I simplified it to this: D2 must have the least bullets per hour that the average player shoots, of any modern shooter. Shooters are headed towards battle royale and large versions of territory/capture the flag gamemodes that focus on being good at shooting your opponent and the strategy behind it...with full matchmaking or LFG. Look how much flak Fortnite gets for the building aspects...but you are still shooting alot more than during a 1 hour raid where you spend platforming and tossing balls through hoops.

In other games...simply performing well against your opponent...and sometimes winning...is enough, and no content is locked behind a grind.

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I'm surprised how lengthy you made that response while at the same time not responding to any of the actual criticisms (getting items I can't use unless I buy dlc, the change of how shaders work etc). I'm glad you can find so much enjoyment in the game, even if you do have to pick and choose carefully what experiences your going to talk about so as to paint the game in as positive a light as possible. I have little doubt that you have bought every single dlc destiny 2 has to offer. Your experiences throughout the game have likely come from the perspective of a "have" user and don't really reflect the experience of those of us "have nots" who are lesser than.

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Why would new items be available to those without the DLC? You don't need them to be successful in the content that is available without the DLC. You can still take on all the content you paid for.

The shaders are kind of dumb being consumable, but they recently patched it to be a bit better since you can re-buy any one you had for very little resources. How is this a problem for those without the DLC?

 

[Sai]

Anybody that has completed a raid can tell you why matchmaking it not available. It can take 6+ hours for some pre-made teams to complete them the first time.

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lol and anyone who's played a real MMO can tell you why that answer is bullshit and that completion time means jack.

 

[Akita One]

[QUOTE="FairyEmpire, post: 16294309, member: 2254"]Constant grind needs good payoff. With so many new and great games out there giving you satisfaction nearly every minute, it's hard to justify wasting dozens of hours of grind to get an item or a specific level just so you can replay same or similar content at a higher level.[/QUOTE]

The best post so far.

 

[Dunk]

So what? How does it affect you? Why is this the only mode in any game ever that doesn't have LFG/matchmaking? People want to play when they want with who they want, not download and log into a bunch of apps.

I'm sorry but the raids are not hard, and we have Youtube...geez people act like we should award Doctorate degrees based on your raid clears. I played the raid my first time with other noobs and we made it halfway and gave up...but we had fun! Because we learned together, and most importantly...I didn't have to book an appointment on my calendar to team up with someone who does and knows everything, and chides me on my gear and whatnot.

Raids on FFXIV are much harder...people learn on the fly, over hours...because that's what they want to do.

Geez I'll never understand why people think adding LFG/matchmaking to D2 somehow hurts you or remove your ability to only play with experts. Do you really think that D2 has anywhere near to the toughest multiplayer PvE out there?

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What are you talking about booking an appointment? I have done every raid numerous times and formed a team within minutes using a webite or the Destiny app.

This allows me to ensure everybody has mics and is mature enough to work through the content. Also gets the right mix of subclasses for the content.

If they opened up matchmaking they would have just as many if not more complaints about how bad the experiences are.

Like I said you can easily solo queue using the guided games option. Never used it myself.

So you have only ever complete half a raid, and fully formed your opinion on them? Which raid was it as the first encounters are often the easiest. That is rarely where teams struggle

 

[Akita One]

There is nothing in fortnite even close to a Destiny raid. Comparing apples and oranges

Average teams take much longer than an hour to complete a raid with numerous failures due to how tight the coordination needs to be

If all you want to do is turn a game on and shoot some things real quick then run Crucible or strikes. Raids have more to them for a reason.

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When did I compare Fortnite to specifically raids...I'm talking about why someone would play an hour of Fortnite vs D2. But...it is SIGNIFICANTLY harder to get a 1st place solo win in Fortnite than completing a raid. Again, blind with a few other people...I got halfway through a raid. The point is...you saying "OMG there is this mode where you jump on platforms and throw balls through hoops for an hour"...the average person isn't going to grind to play something like that. You keep removing the overwhelming grind of D2, just to get to the raid. And once you complete the raid, is there really the much of a feeling of accomplishment versus the time put in?

So, whether you know the mechanics or not, not only are the raids not that challenging...but the rewards often don't match the grind to get there.

 

[Dunk]

lol and anyone who's played a real MMO can tell you why that answer is bullshit and that completion time means jack.

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Destiny is not a MMO, but rather a unique blend of several genres

A 6 man FPS raid encounter is different that 40 people in a 3rd person top down encounter where individual timing is not as critical.

 

[AlexBasch]

Joined late to Forsaken and I was still pondering about buying the Annual Pass but the forges thing does not look appealing at all. :/ Maybe I'll wait for a sale, only to find out that new content release in like, two weeks after that or something.

I haven't cracked 600+ yet, though. :/

 

[Bold One]

JFC again with the Raid Matchmaking whinging

 

[Akita One]

What are you talking about booking an appointment? I have done every raid numerous times and formed a team within minutes using a webite or the Destiny app.

This allows me to ensure everybody has mics and is mature enough to work through the content. Also gets the right mix of subclasses for the content.

If they opened up matchmaking they would have just as many if not more complaints about how bad the experiences are.

Like I said you can easily solo queue using the guided games option. Never used it myself.

So you have only ever complete half a raid, and fully formed your opinion on them? Which raid was it as the first encounters are often the easiest. That is rarely where teams struggle

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This whole post proves my point ("OMG you have only done half a raid how could you know about this content that requires a Harvard degree to understand", "Don't they have Guided Games for you people"). And you are talking about Guided Games, which is atrocious.

Literally everything you typed is what the average person doesn't want to deal with. You also don't seem to understand the importance of LFG/matchmaking and being able to play your way, when you want to play. Again, why do you care so much...you keep dodging this...look at the number of people who have played this game in here, who are saying they would play raids and other content more with LFG?

Why does adding LFG affect you, when you clearly don't understand how anyone but the hardcore plays this game? In general, I don't understand why the D2 diehards are coming in here to tell the non-diehards what they do and don't like...LOL...

No one is adding mandatory matchmaking/LFG to this game...no one is requesting that...and I actually sponsor and have sponsor several sherpas on Twitch, and have watched hundreds of hours of raids...I understand them, they aren't hard...

 

[Rudolph]

What are you talking about booking an appointment? I have done every raid numerous times and formed a team within minutes using a webite or the Destiny app.

This allows me to ensure everybody has mics and is mature enough to work through the content. Also gets the right mix of subclasses for the content.

If they opened up matchmaking they would have just as many if not more complaints about how bad the experiences are.

Like I said you can easily solo queue using the guided games option. Never used it myself.

So you have only ever complete half a raid, and fully formed your opinion on them? Which raid was it as the first encounters are often the easiest. That is rarely where teams struggle

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This is so dumb they could literally have an LFG in the game where you can just see everyone who wants to be in the groups stats and just kick them if you dont wanna raid with someone new. Like so many games do this. Hell in Guild Wars 2 the community is so good that in the LFG there are literally people that make parties to bring new people in. Guided games in D2 is super shit because its just not a LFG system. They can just copy better structured games.

 

[Dodgerfan74]

So what? How does it affect you? Why is this the only mode in any game ever that doesn't have LFG/matchmaking? People want to play when they want with who they want, not download and log into a bunch of apps.

I'm sorry but the raids are not hard, and we have Youtube...geez people act like we should award Doctorate degrees based on your raid clears. I played the raid my first time with other noobs and we made it halfway and gave up...but we had fun! Because we learned together, and most importantly...I didn't have to book an appointment on my calendar to team up with someone who does and knows everything, and chides me on my gear and whatnot.

Raids on FFXIV are much harder...people learn on the fly, over hours...because that's what they want to do.

Geez I'll never understand why people think adding LFG/matchmaking to D2 somehow hurts you or remove your ability to only play with experts. Do you really think that D2 has anywhere near to the toughest multiplayer PvE out there?

Click to shrink...

Regardless of what people say, the reason those people argue against it is concern that the wider base might play raids, struggle to complete them, and complain until Bungie changes the way they make raids. That's 100% of why people argue so hard against an optional feature they wouldn't even use. People who like the way raids are now don't want the dreaded casual dumbing down their super elite, pinnacle content.

 

[Dunk]

When did I compare Fortnite to specifically raids...I'm talking about why someone would play an hour of Fortnite vs D2. But...it is SIGNIFICANTLY harder to get a 1st place solo win in Fortnite than completing a raid. Again, blind with a few other people...I got halfway through a raid. The point is...you saying "OMG there is this mode where you jump on platforms and throw balls through hoops for an hour"...the average person isn't going to grind to play something like that. You keep removing the overwhelming grind of D2, just to get to the raid. And once you complete the raid, is there really the much of a feeling of accomplishment versus the time put in?

So, whether you know the mechanics or not, not only are the raids not that challenging...but the rewards often don't match the grind to get there.

Click to shrink...

You have such a simplistic view of the raids from limited experience it almost isn't worth trying to explain. Yes, it is worth it or many wouldn't do it. The rush of defeating the boss the first time is exhilarating in my opinion and often has my heart rate through the roof

In one past encounter you had an enemy clearing phase then half the team is teleported to another dimension where they have to communicate back to those that remain where they ended up so the correct portal can be opened for them to make it back. Those that are teleported must have one person grab an item that will keep others from going blind every 15 seconds or so. The two that are not in control of that device must shoot objects out of the sky and not miss one or it is a wipe. Then when they make it back through the portal to the boss room that device is used to block boss damage while everybody gets shots in.

 

[Gankzymcfly]

There is nothing in fortnite even close to a Destiny raid. Comparing apples and oranges

Average teams take much longer than an hour to complete a raid with numerous failures due to how tight the coordination needs to be

If all you want to do is turn a game on and shoot some things real quick then run Crucible or strikes. Raids have more to them for a reason. Variety is a good thing.







Why would new items be available to those without the DLC? You don't need them to be successful in the content that is available without the DLC. You can still take on all the content you paid for.

The shaders are kind of dumb being consumable, but they recently patched it to be a bit better since you can re-buy any one you had for very little resources. How is this a problem for those without the DLC?

Click to shrink...

You just keep ignoring things or just not acknowledging them...so I'll list this out so it's super easy for you...

-I said the game makes you feel like your playing part of a game with player levels being an example(max lvl 20 vs lvl 50 for dlc owners)

-You said that's not true because of blah blah blah

-I gave you other examples of how the game makes you feel like your only playing part of a game, and how it makes you feel like your lesser than for that, example being item rewards one recieves but cannot use unless they own the dlc.

-You ignore that part of my post and talk about how you can't compare a game like destiny 2 to a game like rb6 (goes on to list a bunch of subjective reasons why this is the case)

-I point out how you haven't really acknowledged or addressed anything

-You ask me why new items would be available to those who don't own dlc...never answering the question I originally presented which was essentially "why are people without dlc (me) being rewarded for activities with in-game items they cannot access unless they buy the dlc"...the answer I feel your avoiding is...because Bungie is constantly trying to get you to pay for dlc/micro transactions. Like a f2p game.. as a result they want those who don't own the dlc to feel like they are missing out so they become more likely to buy the dlc.

 

[Dunk]

This whole post proves my point ("OMG you have only done half a raid how could you know about this content that requires a Harvard degree to understand", "Don't they have Guided Games for you people"). And you are talking about Guided Games, which is atrocious.

Literally everything you typed is what the average person doesn't want to deal with. You also don't seem to understand the importance of LFG/matchmaking and being able to play your way, when you want to play. Again, why do you care so much...you keep dodging this...look at the number of people who have played this game in here, who are saying they would play raids and other content more with LFG?

Why does adding LFG affect you, when you clearly don't understand how anyone but the hardcore plays this game? In general, I don't understand why the D2 diehards are coming in here to tell the non-diehards what they do and don't like...LOL...

No one is adding mandatory matchmaking/LFG to this game...no one is requesting that...and I actually sponsor and have sponsor several sherpas on Twitch, and have watched hundreds of hours of raids...I understand them, they aren't hard...

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You can play your way and when you want to play already

I have never done a raid with the same people twice. Just hop online and find a suitable group and start playing. Fairly easy in my opinion.

Raids can look easy when explained in a video by a more elite player, but are tougher to execute. It only takes one bad player to cause the whole group to fail over and over.

 

[Akita One]

Regardless of what people say, the reason those people argue against it is concern that the wider base might play raids, struggle to complete them, and complain until Bungie changes the way they make raids. That's 100% of why people argue so hard against an optional feature they wouldn't even use. People who like the way raids are now don't want the dreaded casual dumbing down their super elite, pinnacle content.

Click to shrink...

Okay...I see you guys really do think that completing a raid gets you some Doctorate somewhere. And the bold is an irrational fear that no creative mind should ever consider.

You have such a simplistic view of the raids from limited experience it almost isn't worth trying to explain. Yes, it is worth it or many wouldn't do it. The rush of defeating the boss the first time is exhilarating in my opinion and often has my heart rate through the roof

In one past encounter you had an enemy clearing phase then half the team is teleported to another dimension where they have to communicate back to those that remain where they ended up so the correct portal can be opened for them to make it back. Those that are teleported must have one person grab an item that will keep others from going blind every 15 seconds or so. The two that are not in control of that device must shoot objects out of the sky and not miss one or it is a wipe. Then when they make it back through the portal to the boss room that device is used to block boss damage while everybody gets shots in.

Click to shrink...

Dude, you still aren't getting it. Activision have already told us that the smallest pie of D2 players have even played a raid. You are speaking for yourself and others like you. This thread isn't about people like you who will play forever. Forsaken was expected to improve engagement numbers overall, it did not. Those are facts. And people here are listing their reasonings for it.

Like...you are so locked in thought that you missed the part where I said I've watched almost 100 D2 raids online. I've seen that raid...I've also particpated in raids like in FFXIV which are much harder. You are trying to get people to like what you like. Literally zero of what you have written has changed anyone's mind. Raids aren't the magical experience worth grind tons of hours for...for most people.

 

[Dunk]

You just keep ignoring things or just not acknowledging them...so I'll list this out so it's super easy for you...

-I said the game makes you feel like your playing part of a game with player levels being an example(max lvl 20 vs lvl 50 for dlc owners)

-You said that's not true because of blah blah blah

-I gave you other examples of how the game makes you feel like your only playing part of a game, and how it makes you feel like your lesser than for that, example being item rewards one recieves but cannot use unless they own the dlc.

-You ignore that part of my post and talk about how you can't compare a game like destiny 2 to a game like rb6 (goes on to list a bunch of subjective reasons why this is the case)

-I point out how you haven't really acknowledged or addressed anything

-You ask me why new items would be available to those who don't own dlc...never answering the question I originally presented which was essentially "why are people without dlc (me) being rewarded for activities with in-game items they cannot access unless they buy the dlc"...the answer I feel your avoiding is...because Bungie is constantly trying to get you to pay for dlc/micro transactions. Like a f2p game.. as a result they want those who don't own the dlc to feel like they are missing out so they become more likely to buy the dlc.

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There have been a few bugs that allow items to drop that you don't have access to, but that is not the intention or the norm. As a base game player you should only be getting base game drops.

I am not aware of anything else happening unless it is an anomaly

 

[Imitation Of Life]

Black Armory is some of the grindiest ass shit in the game. The encounters themselves are interesting but the veneer wears off real fast. It's not going to appeal to wide audience. I think a Destiny game that was widely appealing AND evergreen would have to become something very different than the current game offers, and would likely alienate a huge chunk of the current player base.


Cores are easier to obtain, but they do not "drop all over the place" by a long shot. They really ought to be removed from the infusion system.

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I bought annual pass, but so can't bring myself to open the first forge. Like you said this new content is grindy as Hell and don't think the payoff is worth it. I'm not disappointed, but I have decided my time is better spent elsewhere for now. Hopefully Season of the Drifter is more interesting.

 

[Dunk]

Okay...I see you guys really do think that completing a raid gets you some Doctorate somewhere. And the bold is an irrational fear that no creative mind should ever consider.



Dude, you still aren't getting it. Activision have already told us that the smallest pie of D2 players have even played a raid. You are speaking for yourself and others like you. This thread isn't about people like you who will play forever. Forsaken was expected to improve engagement numbers overall, it did not. Those are facts. And people here are listing their reasonings for it.

Like...you are so locked in thought that you missed the part where I said I've watched almost 100 D2 raids online. I've seen that raid...I've also particpated in raids like in FFXIV which are much harder. You are trying to get people to like what you like. Literally zero of what you have written has changed anyone's mind. Raids aren't the magical experience worth grind tons of hours for...for most people.

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Again, seeing and doing are two different things. I have never watched somebody else play a raid other than a simple guide to the encounter. I don't get the joy of watching somebody else do it

Raids are not intended for the casual player, and the player base can grow without everybody getting to the raids. There is plenty of other content.

Doing something not many have done is half the fun. Not as thrilling to beat something everybody has already beaten.

 

[astro]

People can't seem to grasp that people want to play their own way...when they want to play...with who they want to play with. It's embarrassing how defensive the Destiny hardcore gets over something that would never affect them. Can't recall a game that forced matchmaking on everyone without an option to make your own teams. They are basically devs at Bungie at this point...the same 4 criticisms in here are overwhelming, and has nothing to do with Fortnite or RDR2 or any other game:

1. The base content available is the easiest of any modern shooter, while requiring you to grind the same content for weeks/months on end, just to get to the level to play the postgame.
2. Random rolls plus the lack of real visual variety of loot has overly-simplified the loot chase to a few things to look out for, 90% of everything else is sharded.
3. Too much content doesn't involve shooting, but watching loading screens, collecting items, turning things in...driving across a map for cinematic reasons...it adds to a time-sink which becomes crippling when you work an hour for two 3+ engrams.
4. Raids and the other postgame content do not look engaging enough to ignore #1-#3 on its own merits.

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Matchmaking in raids would be detrimental to EVERYONE.

For those who group outside of MM it would reduce the pool.
For those who use it, it would put them off raiding via: trolls, time wasters, AFKers, etc...

It's a terrible idea which is why it's not in-game.

A party up system would be good, ie: go to the tower and hunt for people to group with. Which would require you to put enough extra effort in to find a group that it would get rid of all the "on a whim" players that would ruin experience.

MM for raids would be full of "on a whim" players, and it would be a horror show for all involved.

 

[Dodgerfan74]

Okay...I see you guys really do think that completing a raid gets you some Doctorate somewhere. And the bold is an irrational fear that no creative mind should ever consider.

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I'm agreeing with people arguing for better in-game lfg options. I'm just saying that's the reason why people argue against it. Literally no one gives a shit if new players have a bad time then don't raid again or whatever nonsense people throw out. It's a complete farce and not worth pretending people are being genuine when they argue it.

Personally, I don't care about it because I don't find Destiny raids that fun. I uninstalled the game for a million other reasons. Bungie needs to really reconsider a lot of their core mechanics and what makes a grind meaningful and fun versus just busy work designed to keep logins high.

 

[AlexBasch]

It only takes one bad player to cause the whole group to fail over and over.

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I swear this is one of the scariest things about those goddamned Raids in this game for me, lol.

 

[Vic Damone Jr.]

600 is the new 500 fyi

they changed primes so that you get them more regularly and higher power jumps.



There is LFG already. It's on the Bungie app.

Guess what? Even with LFG, your experience in raids would likely be the same as matchmaking. Raids need high levels of coordination and communication and patience.

It's been incredibly easy to find groups in the Era Destiny Discord for the raids, forges, dungeon.

You get what you put in with this game.

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It's not incredibly easy. When last wish came out I tried he'd as helll to find people to raid with here and on discord and couldn't get anything going or join groups. Everyone has their cliques already for the most part and stay with them. I won't even bring up raid matchmaking cause I know how that'll go but every other endgame content should have matchmaking. No excuses, it's just bungle slowing players down even more so they don't burn through the anemic content.

 

[Sai]

Destiny is not a MMO, but rather a unique blend of several genres

A 6 man FPS raid encounter is different that 40 people in a 3rd person top down encounter where individual timing is not as critical.

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I know what Destiny is, I played it for almost 3 years.

and uh lol? it's almost even more critical when your actions will affect more than a dozen people.

There's a thousand ways they could make raid matchmaking work if they wanted to. Getting thrown together with a squad of people to complete a raid through matchmaking is not some impossible feat.

 

[Dunk]

I swear this is one of the scariest things about those goddamned Raids in this game for me, lol.

Click to shrink...

Well failing is how you learn most anything in life.

My biggest word of advice is don't be scarred to speak up if you were the one that failed. Get suggestions and improve

The worst are people who are too proud to admit they made a mistake. As long as the line of communication stays open and everybody works together you can get through it.

If somebody else has to figure out you we're not doing your job after repeated wipes it is a much worse atmosphere. Just admit it, fix it, and move on

 

[GarthLordOfTheSith]

You can play your way and when you want to play already

I have never done a raid with the same people twice. Just hop online and find a suitable group and start playing. Fairly easy in my opinion.

Raids can look easy when explained in a video by a more elite player, but are tougher to execute. It only takes one bad player to cause the whole group to fail over and over.

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I remember playing the Raids night D1 three times a week. And I'd say they were generous on that a player having a bad day didn't make the raid a miserable experience because you could recover. (Didn't play the Rise of Iron Raid cause I was the only one on my group who bought the expansion). The few times I've managed to try raiding in 2 were just miserable experiences compared to d1's raids. Vault of Glass and Kingfall are still my favorite pieces of Destiny content.

 

[Dunk]

I remember playing the Raids night D1 three times a week. And I'd say they were generous on that a player having a bad day didn't make the raid a miserable experience because you could recover. (Didn't play the Rise of Iron Raid cause I was the only one on my group who bought the expansion). The few times I've managed to try raiding in 2 were just miserable experiences compared to d1's raids. Vault of Glass and Kingfall are still my favorite pieces of Destiny content.

Click to shrink...

Any raid can technically be completed with less than 6, but already very difficult for 6 so less is rough

Especially if you had assigned roles and have to switch on the fly mid-encounter when somebody dies.

It is a mixed bag as some raids/encounters are more forgiving than others.

VoG is still my favorite as well, but that may just be nostalgia talking haha

 

[AlexBasch]

Well failing is how you learn most anything in life.

My biggest word of advice is don't be scarred to speak up if you were the one that failed. Get suggestions and improve

The worst are people who are too proud to admit they made a mistake. As long as the line of communication stays open and everybody works together you can get through it.

If somebody else has to figure out you we're not doing your job after repeated wipes it is a much worse atmosphere. Just admit it, fix it, and move on

Click to shrink...

I gave up months ago trying to do a raid since most of the LFG posts are "+600, several clears done, a specific weapon and "must know what your doing".

If there was a thing like "practice raids" or whatever I would have jumped in despite my hilarious lack of knowledge of English speaking, but in PC I only recall raid experts and "no newbs".

Probably will reinstall the game at some point if something like that exists. I'm open to admit I'm pretty fucking awful at videogames, which is why I only go solo-quickplay in Overwatch for example.

 

[Bold One]

Matchmaking in raids would be detrimental to EVERYONE.



MM for raids would be full of "on a whim" players, and it would be a horror show for all involved.

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Most of the people who complain about lack of MM in raids I feel ae people who have never raided in Destiny before

 

[astro]

Most of the people who complain about lack of MM in raids I feel ae people who have never raided in Destiny before

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Exactly. They don't know what they're asking for...

"I don't have time to build a group..."

Then you don't have time to raid.

 

[Van Bur3n]

Dead Hardcore Bungie Defenders,

When the vast majority of people say they want matchmaking, what they actually mean is they want a way to group up with other randoms without having to leave the game. In other words, LFG. It's something that should have been built into the game from day 1. The fact that we're at year 4 and Bungie still refuse to even talk about the chance of maybe possibly doing it tells us all we need to know about Bungie as a development team. Perhaps if they did that, they wouldn't have such embarrassingly low completion percentages for the raids.

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Pretty sure most hardcore players want an in-game LFG system as well. So, I don't know why the arguments still happen, or why people say matchmaking and not LFG because that only causes a misunderstanding.

Most are fine with resources being spend on implementing a proper in-game LFG system. What isn't fine is wasting time on implementing traditional matchmaking for raids. If Bungo is capable of implementing both in the future, that's also fine. I'm perfectly fine with a traditional matchmaking system existing for those nutty enough to bother with it, but so long as an LFG system is there first.

 

[Iucidium]

sounds like a job

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That's why the streamers love it.

I gave up months ago trying to do a raid since most of the LFG posts are "+600, several clears done, a specific weapon and "must know what your doing".

If there was a thing like "practice raids" or whatever I would have jumped in despite my hilarious lack of knowledge of English speaking, but in PC I only recall raid experts and "no newbs".

Probably will reinstall the game at some point if something like that exists. I'm open to admit I'm pretty fucking awful at videogames, which is why I only go solo-quickplay in Overwatch for example.

Click to shrink...

Probably in Destiny 3

Spoiler

that'll be $60 standard, $89 deluxe

 

[Bold One]

Pretty sure most hardcore players want an in-game LFG system as well. So, I don't know why the arguments still happen, or why people say matchmaking and not LFG because that only causes a misunderstanding.

Click to shrink...

bruh... you're wasting your time

 

[Van Bur3n]

bruh...

Click to shrink...

What is you trying to say.

EDIT: Oh, saw your edit.

 

[Dunk]

I gave up months ago trying to do a raid since most of the LFG posts are "+600, several clears done, a specific weapon and "must know what your doing".

If there was a thing like "practice raids" or whatever I would have jumped in despite my hilarious lack of knowledge of English speaking, but in PC I only recall raid experts and "no newbs".

Probably will reinstall the game at some point if something like that exists. I'm open to admit I'm pretty fucking awful at videogames, which is why I only go solo-quickplay in Overwatch for example.

Click to shrink...

Well in several LFG communities there are Sherpas that pride themselves in teaching others.

It is true that many like to play with fellow experienced players since it can mean the difference in completing the raid in an hour or two or struggling for 5 hours and getting stuck at the last encounter and giving up.

My first time through each raid has been done with random LFG members and it often takes 6+ hours. I am dedicated and will almost always stick it out with the team, but understandably I don't want that experience for all the future completions after my first

 

[Gankzymcfly]

There have been a few bugs that allow items to drop that you don't have access to, but that is not the intention or the norm. As a base game player you should only be getting base game drops.

I am not aware of anything else happening unless it is an anomaly

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Lol I find it even more harious that Bungie still have you convinced this is some type of bug/anomoly. I'll take screenshots when I get home from holiday dinner. This is a common theme for Bungie, it usually goes something like this. Do shady questionable shit that pushes your dlc/micro transactions... Wait to get called out...once called out claim it was a bug/issue and the game was not working as intended......I remember in destiny 1 when they straight up lied about the balancing of some weapons until they got called out and claimed it was a bug....then they had the whole throttling of player exp at the beginning of destiny 2 where they claimed that was a bug...a bug the conveniently encouraged the sale of bright engrams..... Now what I'm experiencing is just a convenient bug that encourages the purchase of dlc.....this is why destiny 2 is a failure imo... because more people are like me and look through Bungie's bullshit now adays.

 

[Turbo Tu-Tone]

The dummies shot themselves in the foot by changing the way Eververse worked from D1 to D2. I was paying cash money for those dances in D1, but once they decided to put everything behind the paywall and people raised a (rightfully) big enough stink over it in D2, they backed themselves into a corner of having to give us better chances to get the good stuff from non-paid engrams. Haven't spent a PENNY in the Eververse in D2 and have most of the emotes I actually want.

Top shelf work, Bungie.

 

[Akita One]

Again, seeing and doing are two different things. I have never watched somebody else play a raid other than a simple guide to the encounter. I don't get the joy of watching somebody else do it

Raids are not intended for the casual player, and the player base can grow without everybody getting to the raids. There is plenty of other content.

Doing something not many have done is half the fun. Not as thrilling to beat something everybody has already beaten.

Click to shrink...

People already know all this...all your recent post in this thread has said the same thing, which I've already acknowledged. You love Destiny and Destiny raids and think completing them is higher than anything else ever in multiplayer matchmaking gaming. This thread isn't "why the Destiny faithful love playing Destiny"...like...you literally are skipping over the bold. The grind to get to a raid doesn't match the bold.

 

[Mockerre]

Anybody that has completed a raid can tell you why matchmaking it not available. It can take 6+ hours for some pre-made teams to complete them the first time.

They tried to enable matchmaking for the recent forge activities which are massively easier and it still ruins the experience since the odds of getting two other players that know what they are doing are low.

They provided the guided games option so solo players could match up with teams of 4-5 that need a fill in and want to guide them.

Almost all of the content has matchmaking except for very difficult content that requires tight coordination

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I have completed the raid and I call bull on that. It's elitist for the sake of elitist. I'm really tired of going to an exterior LFG site to group up for content, be it the raid, Nightfall or anything else. Enable matchmaking for everything. The people who don't want to use it can simply not use it, I assure you, no random will invade the privacy of your pre-made group.

 

[pants]

The dummies shot themselves in the foot by changing the way Eververse worked from D1 to D2. I was paying cash money for those dances in D1, but once they decided to put everything behind the paywall and people raised a (rightfully) big enough stink over it in D2, they backed themselves into a corner of having to give us better chances to get the good stuff from non-paid engrams. Haven't spent a PENNY in the Eververse this year and have most of the emotes I actually want.

Top shelf work, Bungie.

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This is super interesting from a player engagement perspective; you can get all of this stuff for free if you're playing regularly, and by playing regularly you are helping to expand the playerbase of an inherently social game. Either way its good for the health of the game (financial support v engagement support) and probably translates to a net benefit even if you arent spending a couple of bucks on emotes anymore.

The argument for F2P done right has always been cool cosmetic stuff supporting a stream of regular content updates, and while Destiny is moving in the right directions its probably closer to something like Hearthstone right now than it is Overwatch.

I have completed the raid and I call bull on that. It's elitist for the sake of elitist. I'm really tired of going to an exterior LFG site to group up for content, be it the raid, Nightfall or anything else. Enable matchmaking for everything. The people who don't want to use it can simply not use it, I assure you, no random will invade the privacy of your pre-made group.

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Its not that anyone disagrees on the "I shouldn't have to go to an LFG site outside of the game" argument. Its pretty much universally accepted that in-game LFG tools - like WoW or XIV have - work and would be a great fit for Destiny. Its just important to stress group finder and not "hit a button and pray for the best" matchmaking.

Destiny's raids are designed for a group of six players who are all actively participating, communicating, and invested in eachothers success; this includes some measure of similar schedules, commitment, and even group expectations. None of these are assured via a free-for-all vanilla matchmaking mode, and open the doors to an abysmal level of player experience I've seen glimpses of in some of my worst groups and wouldn't wish on anyone.

What happens when someone goes AFK (understandably!) on a 2+ hour raid session?
What happens when your six teammates refuse to communicate?
What do you do if someone in your group understands the mechanics, but can't deliver?
What if players keep leaving as soon as they join your in-progress raid, and you have to start over fresh?
What if you need to leave and start fresh, but get dropped into the same raid?
What if one player only has 20 minutes, another has 40, and another has all night?

All of these are solved by the player onus created through self-organization, but aren't inherent to matchmaking.

While I'm sure there are some purists who truly do want to gatekeep other people from cool content, I honestly just dont want to see the design ethos of Destiny's raids get watered down because I've seen what happens to content with vanilla matchmaking - in every instance, it gets dumber to aid in player completion because players complain about it. In-game LFG offers up the best case scenario with none of the drawbacks.

 

[Dunk]

People already know all this...all your recent post in this thread has said the same thing, which I've already acknowledged. You love Destiny and Destiny raids and think completing them is higher than anything else ever in multiplayer matchmaking gaming. This thread isn't "why the Destiny faithful love playing Destiny"...like...you literally are skipping over the bold. The grind to get to a raid doesn't match the bold.

Click to shrink...

Nobody is skipping over the other content. Raids are only a fraction of what I do in Destiny. I only do a raid about once a week, if that.

I am close to resetting my Gambit rank for the 4th time as I love that game mode.

There are plenty of unique drops to strive for in many modes with random rolls. Even without the raids I would have plenty to keep me busy